AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Paniere]

34 minutes ago, MattyP said:

Here's a Changehost list i'm toying with atm....thoughts? love the idea of so many spells but not sure if i should drop a few endless spells for another hero or not

--Leaders--

LoC

Gaunt Summoner

Blue Scribes

--Units--

10 BLues

10 brims

10 Brims

10 PInks 

10 Pinks

10 Pinks

--Endless Spells--

Balewind

Cogs

Purple Sun

Pallisade

Geminids

Burning Head

Pendulum

Shackles

You are 1 horror unit short. try squeezing 1 more hero in and basically we play the same 

[MattyP]

1 hour ago, Paniere said:

You are 1 horror unit short. try squeezing 1 more hero in and basically we play the same 

add a hero or a unit of blues/brims?

[Paniere]

I prefer saving blues for summoning purposes, fielding screamers instead. I also prefer 1 more horror hero over some of those endless, but honestly I'd need way more games to state which solution would be better

[Asimov]

13 hours ago, MattyP said:

add a hero or a unit of blues/brims?

Yes, you need 8 Horror heroes or daemon units, you are one short to fill the batallion. 
If you want to go chip go for brims. 

[Curzex]

Tomorrow i will play vs Beast herd

My list is a heavy Magic and shooting list

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Mortal Realm: Chamon
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Argent Armour 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Herald of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
1 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch(150)
1 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch(150)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (90)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (90)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
Warpflame Host (100)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
The Burning Head (30)
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 75
 

The plan is just acurate and destroy.

[Terninho83]

This weekend i will have a 1k competition and im gonna try the followed list.

 

Any upgrade or hint would be great!

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

LEADERS

Gaunt Summoner (160) - General - Command Trait : Arcane Sacrifice - Artefact : Paradoxical Shield - Lore of Fate : Bolt of Tzeentch

Ogroid Thaumaturge (170) - Lore of Fate : Infusion Arcanum

The Blue Scribes (140) - Lore of Change : Tzeentch's Firestorm

UNITS

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180) - Lore of Change : Arcane Transformation

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180) - Lore of Change : Fold Reality

ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN

Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Balewind Vortex (40)

Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

Ravenak's Gnashing Jaws (30)

Soulsnare Shackles (40)

TOTAL: 1000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 38

[Acid_Nine]

On 7/10/2019 at 9:25 AM, Lightbox said:

I've never found him to be too beaty unfortunately. If you can find points then the ogroid may give you more bang for your buck in being beaty and casty. Otherwise a tzeentch marked daemon prince could work, though depends if you want explicity arcanite units.

I could drop 100 points from the enlightened and make them a squad of 6, bring a daemon prince and some endless spells?

[MattyP]

So, I have played for about 6 months, about 30 games or so and have only won 3. I do not know how people win with Tzeentch. for a while I thought it was the army, but after reading and posting I have learned it is me/my playstyle.  I have tried to stick it out and learn and hang in there, as I love the painting, but I think that my aggravation and losing streak has taken its toll on me and I will be shelving my Warhammer stuff for an indefinite time period. Its the quantity of losses and feeling of frustration with trying to learn this army and Warhammer. 

[Sigwarus]

1 hour ago, MattyP said:

So, I have played for about 6 months, about 30 games or so and have only won 3. I do not know how people win with Tzeentch. for a while I thought it was the army, but after reading and posting I have learned it is me/my playstyle.  I have tried to stick it out and learn and hang in there, as I love the painting, but I think that my aggravation and losing streak has taken its toll on me and I will be shelving my Warhammer stuff for an indefinite time period. Its the quantity of losses and feeling of frustration with trying to learn this army and Warhammer. 

Well, tell us more about your regular lists and what factions  your opponents playing. I have had huge success with the army over the past 1,5 years. For now, try the Changehost. 

[MattyP]

3 hours ago, Sigwarus said:

Well, tell us more about your regular lists and what factions  your opponents playing. I have had huge success with the army over the past 1,5 years. For now, try the Changehost. 

list varies. tried demon heavy, then mixed demon/mortals, then tzaangor heavy. have played changehost 3 times.  have regularly played against skaven, seraphon, FEC, khorne, nurgle, fyreslayers. 

[Caspeur]

21 hours ago, MattyP said:

list varies. tried demon heavy, then mixed demon/mortals, then tzaangor heavy. have played changehost 3 times.  have regularly played against skaven, seraphon, FEC, khorne, nurgle, fyreslayers. 

Don't give up yet, man! To be fair, in my opinion Tzeentch is one of the hardest armies to play. Everything dies quickly and everything's expensive, and having a double turn against you at the wrong time is worse for you than any other army out there, because you can't survive that extra punch.

I'm relatively new to the hobby, and quite bad still. I started with Tzeentch so I could play both 40K and AoS, and I kept losing too.

I branched out to Thousand Sons on 40K (Mixed with my Daemons) and Flesh eater courts on AoS, and I've gotta say, it IS an army wide problem, not just you. At least right now it is. The difference is HUGE. At first, every unit I lost was a huge deal, but with these armies I only have to be cautious with around 3 units. That's not the case for Tzeentch at all.

There's some things that I learned to do though whenever I play Tzeentch:

- The day before the battle, I quickly look up the most used warscrolls of the enemy's army. This is key to any battle, but when playing Tzeentch it's essential. Know what your enemy might do at all times, as if you're playing chess

- Unless I'm running a beefy list (With 30x Tzaangors and 30x Chaos Warriors), I always tend to have just one or two drops (Or at least, less than my enemy). This way I can go second, which is huge for Tzeentch

- When I go second, I almost never take double turn, unless I'm sure that I'll be delivering a finishing blow. Whenever you take the turn, you will get it back. 

- If your list doesn't include any batallions, you'll probably finish deploying last. If this is the case, you'll most likely get first turn because the opponents will think that it'll wreck your hero phase. If this is the case, make sure you build your list towards punishing them for giving you first turn. For example, give Gaunt Summoner Souldraught and Arcane sacrifice and have it cast a Balewind Vortex with 3 dice rerolling, so you're almost certain you'll get it. Then you'll have a 33" threat range for your Anti horde spell. This is incredible, as your opponent will probably be at exactly 24" from you, trying to be agressive. Then there's the Enlightened who can move 16", then charge for 8", maybe spend the command reroll on that or use destiny dice. Make sure your Shaman runs in front of the enlightened before you make the charge so they're still in his aura after the charge. Then there's Tzaangors, who can move 6, auto-run for 6, and use two destiny dice (2x6) if you can spare them, giving them 24" which is enough to punish your opponent for giving you the first turn. You can make a huge conga line of 30 Tzaangors covering most of your deployment zone edge, and have them all run forward in a straight line (if the terrain will let you). The Tzaangors will most likely survive their fighting in your own turn, so they're essentially stalling your opponent during their own turn, or at least half of their army.

- I try to stay clear of units that die too quickly. I'm not too experienced yet, and therefor I might forget to screen correctly / deal with deepstrike congalines, etc. It's not worth the risk for me to field expensive flamers or burning chariots.

- You're facing a lot of armies that are stronger than yours (all of them beside Seraphon). All of then are quite agressive and straight forward. Their main tactic is run forward and punch (BOOORING). You can definately work with that. Your hero phase is your best friend, especially against those foes. Seraphon and Khorne might be able to dispell better than others, but you'll probably be having more attempts than they can deny. Don't forget to bring mobile heroes to flank those agressive dudes with your summons.

Maybe it's an idea to just start with 1K battles and work your way up again? I still tend to do smaller battles just because I feel like they're more casual than the 2.5K that my local gaming group regularly plays.

Just keep in mind that the local meta is always different, and I suspect that yours relies on heavy agression and pushing, running straight forward across the board. Maybe you can tailor your list to be anti-meta? I found out that some things just work so well for me, while they might not work in other gaming groups. 

[MattyP]

1 hour ago, Caspeur said:

Just keep in mind that the local meta is always different, and I suspect that yours relies on heavy agression and pushing, running straight forward across the board. Maybe you can tailor your list to be anti-meta? I found out that some things just work so well for me, while they might not work in other gaming groups. 

after some thought I've realized the local meta Is actually fairly competitive ...friendky, but competitive, and that has made it challenging to learn and improve . Also that are pretty experienced players with other tabletop games, whereas i am not. There is another group starting closer to me that isn't as competitive .....going to paint for a while and take a break from playing.

[Caspeur]

1 minute ago, MattyP said:

after some thought I've realized the local meta Is actually fairly competitive ...friendky, but competitive, and that has made it challenging to learn and improve . Also that are pretty experienced players with other tabletop games, whereas i am not. There is another group starting closer to me that isn't as competitive .....going to paint for a while and take a break from playing.

I feel you man... half of the people in my group are playing competitive, and they made me stop playing for 2 months. Now I tend to avoid battling them because I'm more into goofy random battles (hence why I love Tzeentch so much). I'm sure you can find players that are less competitive! Otherwise we should wait for the battletome update. I have high hopes for Tzeentch, and expect them to be a lot easier to play on a higher level.

[Oreaper84]

So i have a metric tonne of flamers and exalted....and man i keep trying but they suck so so bad. Do we think that they will get a super boost in the hopefully new book?...if so what would make them good?

[Gesundheit]

On 7/17/2019 at 3:57 PM, Oreaper84 said:

So i have a metric tonne of flamers and exalted....and man i keep trying but they suck so so bad. Do we think that they will get a super boost in the hopefully new book?...if so what would make them good?

Just one word: Rend!

You do ok damage  with them, but the missing rend is the thing making them thrash!🤔

Edited July 22, 2019 by Gesundheit

[Blisterfeet]

Hey everyobe, so I've just got from Warhammer world yeaterday and I want to start a 2000 point project after finishing my FEC! Could you guys help a total novice create a non dreadful list, only stipulations are the following;

- Love enlightened disc models

- Want to run Archaon (RoC just adore the model) 

Rest feel free to do whatever! Any help would be appreciated even if it is what to buy first or a list you have made.

[Frowny]

The start collecting demons of tzeentch is a good start. Alternatively they used to have a tzeentch arcanites box with some enlightened and I think tzaangors and acolytes that was also good value.

One nice thing is that I've seen peoples lists here with quite the variety of units in. Basically all the battleline options and a large chunk of the heroes have use. Screamers, chariots and flamers are on the weaker end but most things are solid in a casual and even up to a competitive army level. 

 

Buy what you like and want to paint. Maybe start with a box of enlightened and archeon since you know you want those anyway

[Lightbox]

12 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

Hey everyobe, so I've just got from Warhammer world yeaterday and I want to start a 2000 point project after finishing my FEC! Could you guys help a total novice create a non dreadful list, only stipulations are the following;

- Love enlightened disc models

- Want to run Archaon (RoC just adore the model) 

Rest feel free to do whatever! Any help would be appreciated even if it is what to buy first or a list you have made.

Archaon will eat up a chunk of your points! But he can be pretty great. So I tried him out in tzeentch recently and gave him the spell that grants the caster rerolls of 1 to hit and wound and had a tzaangor shaman (with the magical supremacy trait to give him bonus spells) use the spell to once per game grant him an extra attack on his slayer of kings (I was fighting beastclaw so wanted as many potential insta deaths as possible) Once you start adding the buffs onto him he can get really good, especially with destiny dice to make sure slayer of kings goes off.

 

Kairic acolytes are good for a cheap battleline and can throw out ranged shots which won't necessarily kill anything but hey it's better than nothing and they will get out a couple of wounds, though they will die like wet tissue paper when charged. Tzaangors are more expensive but can really pack a punch! The thing about tzeentch is we don't have as much staying power so looking at chaos warriors from slaves to darkness (mark of tzeentch lets them be included as normal) for a tough objective holder could be a good shout. Enlightened are definitely a great unit and giving them a shaman to accompany them with fold reality can be a good shout.

 

I personally don't take many demons but I can definitely see them being useful and you may want them anyway for fate points though if hero light you probably won't be building up too many fate points each turn especially with archaon taking so many points. 

[Blisterfeet]

@Frowny @Lightbox thanks for those responses I think I am getting an idea of the list I want to build. 

@Lightbox Can I ask what list you run usually as you say don't run many demons and I do like the aesthetic of mortals! 

Do you have any favourite endless spells you take?

[drcrater]

@Lightbox In fact I run a list with a blob of 30 chaos warriors aided by a warshrine and they can sit in an objective for ages.

[Lightbox]

2 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

@Frowny @Lightbox thanks for those responses I think I am getting an idea of the list I want to build. 

@Lightbox Can I ask what list you run usually as you say don't run many demons and I do like the aesthetic of mortals! 

Do you have any favourite endless spells you take?

Okay so I haven't done much tzeentch recently but back in the day I used to like a big blob of tzaangors (probably more useful as multiple 10 or 20 units now) my list I used recently was:

-Archaon
-Shaman
-10 Tzaangors
-2x 10 Kairic Acolytes
-6 Enlightened

Archaon was screened by tzaangors and managed to butcher a lot before he inevitably died (he was mega targeted by most of my opponents army as the big scary) the tzaangor screen was great and basically stopped his charge mortal wounds getting archaon and I then killed them in a way that gave archaon the ability to pile in enough to slayer of kings the stonehorn the tzaangors managed to last long enough to hold up his mournfang till archaon finished with the big boys for a couple turns (This army needs inspiring presence but also doesn't use command points much so you always have some spare for it) This was like 1500 pts though, a bigger game would probably see a warshrine (maybe an unmarked one allied in for the reroll 1's to hit and wound on some of my guys, though rerolling saves for archaon or enlightened could be great) Chaos warriors would be a much better screen than tzaangors as they're a bit more survivable though you do want the screen dead enough that archaon gets to pile in properly.  Acolytes really shine in being cheap but I could see masses of them in the shoot twice battalion actually doing alright to add some nice ranged support to tzeentch (though a bit costly for an archaon list where you have less space so need more hard hitters)

 

The idea behind fold reality is if the enlightened drop to 1 model they won't be doing all that much so if they die, meh but being able to bring back up to 5 more 4 wound models is a really worth the risk of losing that last one. But if you want to go mortal heavy then my view on the possible units is as follows:

-Chaos warriors - objective holders
-Tzaangors & chaos knights - damage dealers (also the disk tzaangors can grab lone objectives last turn too thanks to their obscene movement especially if you pay a command point for the insta 6 run)
-Acolytes - Cheap battleline tax/fodder/ranged support

Mortals do get some nice wizards too: Curseling for anti magic, magister for a cheap spellcaster, shaman to buff ALL the tzaangors, Ogroid to punch people who say magic is for cowards and although he's a demon the gaunt summoner is worth a mention for his horde clearing spell.

A big thing strategy wise for tzeentch is learning WHEN to use destiny dice, and trying to have ways to replenish them. Your biggest weakness is low saves and bravery.

[Blisterfeet]

@Lightbox that is incredibly helpful. I know it's going to be a learning curve especially being a FEC player and in 40k playing mainly combat armies, but that is the draw of Tzeentch colourful and so different!

 

[Lightbox]

6 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

@Lightbox that is incredibly helpful. I know it's going to be a learning curve especially being a FEC player and in 40k playing mainly combat armies, but that is the draw of Tzeentch colourful and so different!

 

I will say though I'm not the most experienced with tzeentch and play in a more casual / casual competitive environment so your mileage may vary but honestly mortal tzeentch is so much fun, and the fact you can dip into the slaves to darkness range is super great. Other cool/fun things from slaves to look into might be: Sorcerer on manticore, lord on manticore, chaos sorcerer (his spell + oracular visions is tasty) also if you can find the ally points / afford the models, varanguard with fellspears make for a really satisfying charger. Just don't do what I did and charge them into 30 bonesplitterz... they will not do well and you will feel very silly about it. However they're great for smashing into big things and small elite units where their rend really matters.]

 

My best advice is to try stuff out and see what you really enjoy.

Edited July 23, 2019 by Lightbox

[Zedrenael]

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Mortal Realm: Ghur
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Magical Supremacy
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Herald of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch and Chaos Familiars(160)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

Blue Scribes(140)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch(90)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch(90)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (90)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Multitudinous Host (100)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 109

 

 

This is the list that I am thinking of starting to build for LVO. I will have plenty of extra models so that I will not run out in terms of summoning. Is this a list worth running? 

[Sumanye]

Question about the Gaunt Summoner's Book of Profane Secrets.  With the new terrain rules, it is now possible to choose a Baleful Realmgate as terrain, but the Gaunt Summoner obviously was not pointed for summoning 10 free pink horrors.  What prevents you from using this ability, or what am I missing here?