AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Paniere]

35 minutes ago, Pestilens said:

I think that u really need spell portal innsead of geminids, so u can Cast purple sun from changeling and then u can switch him with something, and u can cast gaunt summoner spell throw the portal. 

wrong, switchings happen at the start of the hero phase, once you cast the sun you are on yor own and in trouble if you don't  get the double turn. However it's funny to see all these players who used to run enlightened lists jumping in the demon bandwagon. I started playing Aos in February aiming to build a changehost from the start, so I'm feeling lucky with these changes

[Pestilens]

1 minute ago, Paniere said:

wrong, switchings happen at the start of the hero phase, once you cast the sun you are on yor own and in trouble if you don't  get the double turn. However it's funny to see all these players who used to run enlightened lists jumping in the demon bandwagon. I started playing Aos in February aiming to build a changehost from the start, so I'm feeling lucky with these changes

Wait, so I can't cast from changeling then switch him??? Mmmm maybe could be so bad to sacrifice 180 points only to try to cast the purple sun in the back line... 

[Iron Fist]

46 minutes ago, Asimov said:

No, because the swap happens at the beginning of the hero phase and the summon at the end of the mvt phase

Yeah, but aunit who was summoned one turn before?

[Paniere]

23 minutes ago, Pestilens said:

Wait, so I can't cast from changeling then switch him??? Mmmm maybe could be so bad to sacrifice 180 points only to try to cast the purple sun in the back line... 

that's my concern too

[Paniere]

1 hour ago, Iron Fist said:

Yeah, but aunit who was summoned one turn before?

edited: as corectly pointd out below, no

 

Edited June 19, 2019 by Paniere
false statement

[Iron Fist]

Ok

Not only the units of bataillon ?

[Asimov]

23 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

Ok

Not only the units of bataillon ?

Indeed, only the units in the bataillon that are present at the start of the game can use the swap.

Summoned units after the start of the game won't be part of the bataillon. 

[RoloMcFury]

2 ways to pull off the Purple-Sun-on-your-opponent's-doorstep-turn-1 trick:

1. Changehost swap a Pink Horror squad to get a bit of extra movement. Then, summon Lauchon's boat (with said Pink Squad already in the right spot to hop right in). Move your Lauchon 12 inches, get out (3 more inches). Cast that bad boy! You'll lose the Pink Squad, but you can string em out 3 inches from your opponent's lines to block like 21" of their army from moving during their turn (hero phase casualties aside). The Purple Sun will be able to go 2.5" deep into their army before having to back out (unless they're foolish enough to leave a spot for it to land). 

2. Deploy Changeling right near the bulk of your opponent's force. Changehost swap 10 Pink Horrors, cast the spell, and string out to block their movement, same as above. This will probably not be possible on missions where your deployment zones are much smaller (roughly 1/3 of the missions). As such, I think Lauchon's is superior (and 120 points cheaper than Changeling).

Edited June 20, 2019 by RoloMcFury

[Asimov]

6 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

2 ways to pull off the Purple-Sun-on-your-opponent's-doorstep-turn-1 trick:

1. Changehost swap a Pink Horror squad to get a bit of extra movement. Then, summon Lauchon's boat (with said Pink Squad already in the right spot to hop right in). Move your Lauchon 12 inches, get out (3 more inches). Cast that bad boy! You'll lose the Pink Squad, but you can string em out 3 inches from your opponent's lines to block like 21" of their army from moving during their turn (hero phase casualties aside). The Purple Sun will be able to go 4.5" deep into their army before having to back out (unless they're foolish enough to leave a spot for it to land). 

2. Deploy Changeling right near the bulk of your opponent's force. Changehost swap 10 Pink Horrors, cast the spell, and string out to block their movement, same as above. This will probably not be possible on missions where your deployment zones are much smaller (roughly 1/3 of the missions). As such, I think Lauchon's is superior (and 120 points cheaper than Changeling).

Remember taht to swap you need both units to be at 27"of your LoC. It can ba a limitation to place your changeling right

Otherwise I really like the ideau of Lauchon and will give it a try 

 

Edited June 20, 2019 by Asimov

[RoloMcFury]

2 minutes ago, Asimov said:

Remember taht to swap you need both units to be at 27"of your LoC. It can ba a limitation to place your changeling right

Otherwise I really like the ideau of Lauchon and will give it a try 

 

One more note I didn't realize until right after- Lauchon requires you stay 9 inches away when getting out. There's not a restriction on your movement phase, but you'll only be able to get Purple Sun 3 inches from your opponent before getting it moving. As such, Aethervoid Pendulum may be more reliable damage. 

Anyone have experience with either spell? They're so hard to evaluate on paper.

[Caspeur]

Do the extended range buffs of Arcane Sacrifice and Balewind Vortex apply to the casting of endless spells?

[CountryMou3e]

17 minutes ago, Caspeur said:

Do the extended range buffs of Arcane Sacrifice and Balewind Vortex apply to the casting of endless spells?

No

[Caspeur]

4 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

No

That's dissapointing

[CountryMou3e]

31 minutes ago, Caspeur said:

That's dissapointing

Balance is a great thing

[Caspeur]

2 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Balance is a great thing

You're not thinking like a Tzeentch player now

[Cauthon]

I’m glad changhost is back to working out for you guys again. 

 

What do you guys think of a3 shammy Cabal with horror farm backed by enlightened? 

 

Im pretty pumped enlightened on foot didn’t go up and amazed at how much of our stuff got cheaper!

MuchoEnlightened%20.pdf

[Caspeur]

14 hours ago, Cauthon said:

I’m glad changhost is back to working out for you guys again. 

 

What do you guys think of a3 shammy Cabal with horror farm backed by enlightened? 

 

Im pretty pumped enlightened on foot didn’t go up and amazed at how much of our stuff got cheaper!

MuchoEnlightened%20.pdf 906.93 kB · 15 downloads

No offense, but I wouldn't see this work to be honest.

[Cauthon]

Care to elaborate? 

3 quick wizards to summon blues aggressively turn 1 for board control and objectives.  

The enlightened on disc to go be problem solvers, try and get a fold reality in. 

Enlightened on foot because value. It’s to bad they can’t run and charge but they just need to play objectives while your blues work interference for a couple turns. 

All of my games seem to be over be end of turn two or that second initiative roll at the latest. 

I wanted to see about a list that could play late game objectives. 

 

Dont doubt that the list might not “work“ but would like to hear why. 

 

Thanks!!

[Sumanye]

1 hour ago, Cauthon said:

Care to elaborate? 

3 quick wizards to summon blues aggressively turn 1 for board control and objectives.  

The enlightened on disc to go be problem solvers, try and get a fold reality in. 

Enlightened on foot because value. It’s to bad they can’t run and charge but they just need to play objectives while your blues work interference for a couple turns. 

All of my games seem to be over be end of turn two or that second initiative roll at the latest. 

I wanted to see about a list that could play late game objectives. 

 

Dont doubt that the list might not “work“ but would like to hear why. 

 

Thanks!!

Are Enlightened on foot value though?  Comparing 10 tzaangors to 6 enlightened on foot, by my calculations the tzaangors do basically the same damage (like 1 wound less average against 4+ save), cost 20 points less, have more wounds, have shields, benefit from the shaman's spell and are better at objectives.  The enlightened really only out damage tzaangors if they get to use guided by the past, but with msu they are likely to be wiped out before that happens.  Unless I am missing something, which maybe I am!  I suppose the Tzaangors damage will go down once they take 4 wounds and lose the bonus attack.

[Magnus The Blue]

1 hour ago, Sumanye said:

Are Enlightened on foot value though?  Comparing 10 tzaangors to 6 enlightened on foot, by my calculations the tzaangors do basically the same damage (like 1 wound less average against 4+ save), cost 20 points less, have more wounds, have shields, benefit from the shaman's spell and are better at objectives.  The enlightened really only out damage tzaangors if they get to use guided by the past, but with msu they are likely to be wiped out before that happens.  Unless I am missing something, which maybe I am!  I suppose the Tzaangors damage will go down once they take 4 wounds and lose the bonus attack.

Your missing the 2" range, which makes it easy to screen most damage with another unit and get guided from the past without getting slaughtered first. 

[Sumanye]

3 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Your missing the 2" range, which makes it easy to screen most damage with another unit and get guided from the past without getting slaughtered first. 

That’s a good point!

[Caspeur]

6 hours ago, Cauthon said:

Care to elaborate? 

3 quick wizards to summon blues aggressively turn 1 for board control and objectives.  

The enlightened on disc to go be problem solvers, try and get a fold reality in. 

Enlightened on foot because value. It’s to bad they can’t run and charge but they just need to play objectives while your blues work interference for a couple turns. 

All of my games seem to be over be end of turn two or that second initiative roll at the latest. 

I wanted to see about a list that could play late game objectives. 

 

Dont doubt that the list might not “work“ but would like to hear why. 

 

Thanks!!

Apologies. Feedback without feedback is no better than critisism 😜

I like your idea of the list, but I feel like the effects might get underwhelming because of a lack of variety, models and mobility. The awesome thing about Tzeentch is the huge variety in strategy. I feel like this list might be a bit of a one trick pony. Of course, so is the Changehost, but that's a bad example as it's a one trick pony with a lot of possibilities within that one trick lol

Having 3 Shamans is definately overkill in my opinion. We get many mean heroes, and the Shaman is one of them, but I don't see the point in playing so many. When it comes to their aura, with decent placement you could do with just one. I feel like movement restriction on models that move only 6" isn't as bad as limiting the amount of signature spells. A Gaunt Summoner with Arcane Sacrifice and maybe even a Balewind Vortex is a combo I couldn't ever play without nowadays. Or a Curseling with a Paradoxical Shield and a mystic shield, with the ability to be a one man army against rendless hordes. (2+ save, 2s and 3s auto succes, reroll 1s 4s 5s and 6s into 2+... this guy is tougher than 40K terminators) I love the shaman but wouldn't ever consider running three of him instead of those two guys

I don't like Enlightened without discs over regular Tzaangors, as they're just as weak beside 1 wound per model, but cost almost twice as much a model. Sure, their weapons are far more dangerous, but their lack of speed combined with the relatively low model count will result in an underwhelming experience. Don't forget they also lose Fly, meaning they're even more limited in movement than their soon-to-be-nerfed brothers. 

What makes Tzaangor Enlightened on discs so darn good isn't the attack profile in my opinion, it's the speed at which they deliver. Combine this frontal Guerilla style with the fact that we're playing scared-of-combat Tzeentch and you'll get the surprise (After which they'll either die quickly or are ready for you to Uncheck Mutate them) 

I like that you're going for 3x 10 Pinks. Their point decrease should be abused to the stars and beyond. However I don't like the idea of having to run a Tzaangor Shaman next to them for the Arcane Sacrifice combo. (I'm assuming you'd be going down that road). Maybe it's just me, but my Shaman is always flying around to try and buff the Tzaangors and Tzaangor Enlightened on discs at the same time. Having him not do that would be a waste of a hero slot for me. He's always somewhere in between the vanguard line and the backline for me, and for him also to be bodyguarded by a blob of Pinks would severely limit his mobility.

Again, I'd rather get a fun different hero to stalk the Horrors. Depending on the battleplan I'd have my Gaunt summoner sit on the home objective on a balewind vortex surrounded by 10 regenerating pinks while the other 2x 10 pinks get sent off to die quickly by the enemy's hands. I haven't played with more than 1x 10 Pinks yet since 2.0 though, but with the new possibilities for Changehost, I definately will.

I suggest you'd look into a unit of 30 Tzaangors! Current wording states that the unit only needs ONE guy with a shield for you to get the 6+ save-after-the-save, meaning you can run 12 greatswords and 17 paired swords! One greatsword would be leader and 6 paired guys would be Mutants, resulting in

57 attacks on 3s and 3s from the swordguys

24 attacks on 4s and 3s from the two handers with -1 rend and 2 damage

Too bad you won't get all of the atta... wait what? Everyone is playing hungry hordes and deploying way too aggressive? If you get first turn and both you and the enemy have deployed your armies on the edge of the deployment zone, consider spending that command point to get the Tzaangors to run 6", on top of their own 6", and use two of your destiny 6s to immediately charge! (Brayhorn makes them run and charge in the same turn). Boom!

And don't forget about that sweet Mortal Wound output. With a bit of decent placement (accompanying Pink Horrors for example) you might just be able to smite a bit here and there.

If you want something a bit more tough, you might want to go for 30 chaos warriors. They're just as expensive as 30 tzaangors, though their attack profile is way less impressive. They do have a 4+ save however, and negate mortal wounds on a 5+. Give them Shield of Fate and as long as you have 7+ destiny dice you'll get to reroll failed save rolls lf 1, 2 and 3. Keep them in combat with as many low rend enemies as possible (Looking at you, Crypt Horrors, Witch Aelves, etc) and meanwhile shoot the units with your layers of horrors! Ouch

There is this list on the internet somewhere called "Tzeentch F*ckery" that helped me realize just how strong full units of Tzaangors or Chaos Warriors could be. I don't believe discless Eblightened would beat this utility.

I hope you get what I'm trying to say 😄

[Caspeur]

4 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Your missing the 2" range, which makes it easy to screen most damage with another unit and get guided from the past without getting slaughtered first. 

I like your thinking! However, this will only be effective if you're the one being charged upon, as you need to end a charge within 1", so you can't charge with one conga line and then with the enlightened with them staying outside of 1". Staying outside of 1" while still being jn combat would only work if your front unit is being charged and you stand behind it, or if your enlightened are already in combat and happen to pile in within 2" but outside of 1" of the newly charged unit. 

The sad thing about this is that you can only pull this trick once and your opponent will never make the mistake of charging your screening brims backed by enlightened again 🙈 

[Magnus The Blue]

3 hours ago, Caspeur said:

I like your thinking! However, this will only be effective if you're the one being charged upon, as you need to end a charge within 1", so you can't charge with one conga line and then with the enlightened with them staying outside of 1". Staying outside of 1" while still being jn combat would only work if your front unit is being charged and you stand behind it, or if your enlightened are already in combat and happen to pile in within 2" but outside of 1" of the newly charged unit. 

The sad thing about this is that you can only pull this trick once and your opponent will never make the mistake of charging your screening brims backed by enlightened again 🙈 

You only completely avoid getting hit when charhed, but with clipping and screening you can make sure only one enemy model can attack the enlightened. Harder to pull off without the disks massive move but still a solid tactic.

[Caspeur]

1 minute ago, Magnus The Blue said:

You only completely avoid getting hit when charhed, but with clipping and screening you can make sure only one enemy model can attack the enlightened. Harder to pull off without the disks massive move but still a solid tactic.

Wow, you're absolutely right! I think this will be doable enough, I'll definately give it a try