AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, zombiepiratexxx said:

Trying to decide whether to start IDK or build a Tzeentch army and I already have some Tzeentch models and bought the Battletome recently. 

Regarding Lords of Change, which is "better"? A Lord of Change or Kairos Fateweaver? I've looked through the Battletome and they seem very different, presumably that is why they have the same points cost, as they are doing different things. The Oracle of Eternity seems nice but you lose out on the Command Ability, but, having access to all spells close to him seems like a decent thing to, presuming this works with Endless Spells too? 

Just looking for input from those people more in the know. I already have the model and it's built as Kairos but my group wouldn't care if I played him as a regular LoC. Should also mention that we're not super competitive, just looking at my options for including a cool birdie. 

Hey friend. Interesting army cross section you have there i play both IDK and DoT. 

 

If you ask me kairos is niche. He has a lower damage spell, that he can waste his once per game ability to make a nice strong hit. However, his real claim to fame is using that once per game ability to protect your enlightend from being killed by your fold reality.  

 

The LoC is a massive magical force multiplier for your army. He also has a very consistant and powerful spell ideal for snipe characters. He can also become quite tanky when holding the feather charm, and provide some important magical protection via the magical supremacy command ability.

 

Both are quite good, but against the current meta where units delete each on contact. The LoC is the more consistantly useful model. As the LoC's synergy buffs and hero sniping is good in almost every game. Where kairos will only be useful in the game where you do get a fold reality chance, and where only really in that 1 of 6 times you rolled a 1. It's basicly a 380pt health insurance plan for your 420pt unit.

[Drib]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

The LoC is a massive magical force multiplier for your army. He also has a very consistant and powerful spell ideal for snipe characters. He can also become quite tanky when holding the feather charm, and provide some important magical protection via the magical supremacy command ability.

 

Keep in mind that Kiros is a unique Hero and can not be given any artifacts!

[Grotruk]

Don't you find the chaos spawn summoning useful/annoying  ?

[mmimzie]

10 minutes ago, Drib said:

Keep in mind that Kiros is a unique Hero and can not be given any artifacts!

yes which is why i mention the LoC with artifacts and not kairos

[mmimzie]

13 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Don't you find the chaos spawn summoning useful/annoying  ?

The chaos spawn summoning is useful, but you can do that for cheap with a magister, all be it alittle less likely. Making that comparison the more useful summon is the brimstone spell from the ogroid as that can sing handedly flip some objectives being a basicly a 2x d6 change in your favor.  It's not bad, and again kairos isn't bad against your general casual games and a against some select competive list kairos will be better. However, in every match up i think LoC preforms well as his spells are always useful, and his magic bonus aura is a big force multiplier. 

[Stunt]

Silly question maybe, but why not both ?

 

I'm currently designing a list for a team event and I can't decide between both... to the point that I'm considering how I can make room for both.

[CountryMou3e]

36 minutes ago, Stunt said:

Silly question maybe, but why not both ?

Shhhhhh 🤫

[mmimzie]

43 minutes ago, Stunt said:

Silly question maybe, but why not both ?

 

I'm currently designing a list for a team event and I can't decide between both... to the point that I'm considering how I can make room for both.

Well so a winning list actual did well with both at a decent sized tournament. I don't personaly run much or any special characters as my army tend to be made up of my lore. So my kairos use isn't outstanding, but i have messed with it. 

That said it kind leads you down this hole of one list, right?? Kairos really wants a 9 man enlightend or skyfyre unit who can be hit with fold reality to get the most out of him. So taking Both your are taking an LoC, Kairos+ 9 enlightend thats 1,180pts of your list maybe you bring a suppring shaman throwing you up to 1,360pts, which leaves you abit short on design space for the rest of your list. heck you already have the LoC why not bring his best the gaunt summoner or some pink horrors.  I think you'd have a pretty great list,  just those two kind of take the list development out of your hands a little. 

[Drib]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

yes which is why i mention the LoC with artifacts and not kairos

Oh sorry, I got that wrong somehow  .

[Stunt]

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Well so a winning list actual did well with both at a decent sized tournament. I don't personaly run much or any special characters as my army tend to be made up of my lore. So my kairos use isn't outstanding, but i have messed with it. 

That said it kind leads you down this hole of one list, right?? Kairos really wants a 9 man enlightend or skyfyre unit who can be hit with fold reality to get the most out of him. So taking Both your are taking an LoC, Kairos+ 9 enlightend thats 1,180pts of your list maybe you bring a suppring shaman throwing you up to 1,360pts, which leaves you abit short on design space for the rest of your list. heck you already have the LoC why not bring his best the gaunt summoner or some pink horrors.  I think you'd have a pretty great list,  just those two kind of take the list development out of your hands a little. 

Yup, this is basically what my list looks like. My last iteration looks like this :

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Magister (140)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Units
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)
10 x Bestigors (120)
- Allies

Endless Spells
Umbral Spellportal (60)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 220 / 400
Wounds: 111

The idea is to be able to do a lot a things :

- 3 ways (arcane sacrifice, balewind and spellportal) to increase spell range to put some hurt if I am given first turn or to reach supporting pieces if needed.

- Summoning with mini Pink farm and Chaos Spawn from Magister

- Melee threat with Enlightened + Tzaangor Shaman and Bestigors all with  buffed move from Great Bray Shaman.

 

The magister gets is own reroll for spells through arcane sacrifice and all other casters (except Great Bray) benefit from LoC command ability and wellspring of arcane might, wich gives me a somewhat reliable magic phase.

By switching the LoC for Kairos (Wellspring then goes on Gaunt) I lose some of that reliability for a little bit more summoning (second Chaos Spawn) and of course the fold reality guarantee on Enlighteneds, but I also get the opportunity to make the Great Bray Shaman spell reliable (by casting it with Kairos) which could be a nice trick in niche situations.

 

I quite like the balance of it all and I feel like trying to squeeze Kairos + LoC will make it a lot less strong in certain areas, and I wonder if it is worth it for a  guarantee and a trick...

 

I'll read any comments on this particular matter or the list itself with great pleasure. Thanks all.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Stunt

[mmimzie]

36 minutes ago, Stunt said:

Yup, this is basically what my list looks like. My last iteration looks like this :

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Magister (140)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might 
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Great Bray Shaman (100)
- Allies

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Units
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (420)
10 x Bestigors (120)
- Allies

Endless Spells
Umbral Spellportal (60)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 220 / 400
Wounds: 111

The idea is to be able to do a lot a things :

- 3 ways (arcane sacrifice, balewind and spellportal) to increase spell range to put some hurt if I am given first turn or to reach supporting pieces if needed.

- Summoning with mini Pink farm and Chaos Spawn from Magister

- Melee threat with Enlightened + Tzaangor Shaman and Bestigors all with  buffed move from Great Bray Shaman.

 

The magister gets is own reroll for spells through arcane sacrifice and all other casters (except Great Bray) benefit from LoC command ability and wellspring of arcane might, wich gives me a somewhat reliable magic phase.

By switching the LoC for Kairos (Wellspring then goes on Gaunt) I lose some of that reliability for a little bit more summoning (second Chaos Spawn) and of course the fold reality guarantee on Enlighteneds, but I also get the opportunity to make the Great Bray Shaman spell reliable (by casting it with Kairos) which could be a nice trick in niche situations.

 

I quite like the balance of it all and I feel like trying to squeeze Kairos + LoC will make it a lot less strong in certain areas, and I wonder if it is worth it for a  guarantee and a trick...

 

I'll read any comments on this particular matter or the list itself with great pleasure. Thanks all.

I'd get rid of the spell portal as well if you are going to take kairos and maybe also the gaunt summoner. Casting spells on a 7 with no help is pretty rubbish

you might consider either arcane sacrafice on the gaunt summoner or bring blue scribes, as  casting spells on a 7 is no where near reliable enough. The spell portal as i see it is more a way to reliably snipe heros at the start of the game.  The spell portal is dead in alot of match up with out the LoC. When you bring the LoC some times the portal can be used with him to snipe characters, while against enemy hordes you can use the portal to kill alot models. WIth out the LoC the portal is only really worth it's points in some games.

I think this list specifically Kairos is worse than an LoC. The pink and the gaunt summoner want the LoC's magical buff, and again the portal is an LoC+gaunt summoner thing otherwise it loses alot of it's value. 

The chaos spawn summoning spell is quite well nice and all, but it doesn't do much.  The spawn has to end up retreating and it's best use will be in slowing the enemy down by retreating and being in the way.  However, this sort of set you up quickly for failure as any list like stormcast or IDK that can just flank you will do so, and your heavy investment in chaos spawn summoning will be wasted.  Also against such list as i said before kairos is rather useless as after an alpha strike it is quite likely you won't have any enlightend to fold reality. 

Against something like daughters who are fast enough to ignore the spell bump and take objectives. you don't have enough support for your enlightend. In which case you will most likely suicide charge your enlightend into a unit of witches hopefully killing it, only to have your opponent charge in with there witches and deleted your enlightend squad. Otherwise, you'll end up just pressed back waiting for a time to strike that might not ever exist. 

Now so it's not a swap out LoC for kairos, it's either a Kairos list or an LoC list. Kairos playes like beast of chaos where you are trying to play a long game trading slowly every turn, being abit conservative with your enlightend use so that enough live to be revived.  If the enlightend ever die kairos may as well also be dead as he won't justify his price tag. Against list like Nighthaunt or Nagash that can't really deal to well with your enlightend this stratagy will work well. However, against Moonclan (grots or trolls)/ IDK/Stormcast/ Daughters your enlightend will need alot of support. 

So to run kairos you might want something like screamings to support your enlightend and block off charges. Similar to deepkin with thier ishlaen and morsarr guard teams. 

The LoC list such is the list you have posted is a list that's all about making big holes and focusing on summoning. With the gaunt summoner casting on 6s and your LoC pumping out bolts and infernal gate way on 3's you have reliable anti horde and hero support.. Allowing you to use your enlightend as an expensive throw away unit; sacraficing themselves to give you time to summon a game winning force.  Some times those enlightend will live and you can fold reality to swing the game in your favor, but you use them as if you expect them to die meaning they don't need any support. 

So i'd recommend if you run kairos to run support units for your enlightend. Honestly, long game enlightend work better in beast of chaos. They don't have healing, but they do have SO much more support due to all the out flanking a beast army can do turn 1. Allowing the enlightend to work more as all game harassers rather than chess pieces to be traded.

[Luke1705]

Stunt, comments on your list:

I don’t see the bray shaman as necessary when the enlightened already move mega fast. MAYBE you don’t make the charge turn 1. If they’re off in Siberia. But they’re not charging you before you charge them. That’s what matters and the bray shaman isn’t changing that.

Too many endless spells. Maybe keep the spell portal but it depends if you have the points

I’d keep the lord of change in your list but turn the shackles, bray shaman, gors, and magister into Kairos. Much better use of 380 points

 

edit: also your tzaangor shaman absolutely needs to have treacherous bond. Non negotiable

Edited January 24, 2019 by Luke1705

[CountryMou3e]

5 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

edit: also your tzaangor shaman absolutely needs to have treacherous bond. Non negotiable

why?

[Stunt]

Thanks gentlemen for your feedback.

I'm also leaning more toward the LoC version because it will be useful in every match, where Kairos only comes into play when I get to use fold reality. Bu god do I hate this when I must decide to fold reality my squad of Enlightened with 2-3 models left without that guarantee ^^.

 

I'm quite liking the Bestigors on paper, adding a little couterpunch to the list for cheap. Considering @mmimzie comment about Enlightened that should be used as a missile in a LoC list, I feel the Great Bray Shaman increasing that missile range and giving me options is not bad, and it also gives some more reach to the Bestigors and Tzanngor Shaman (to reach even further with summoning). I have not tested the Great Bray and Bestigors yet, I will try them at least once before writing them off.

@Luke1705: Same question as this above gentleman, why would treacherous bond be mandatory on the Tzaangor Shaman ? I don't feell like is survival is key. He's there to give the Enlightened missile a bit more punch and be a fast beacon for summoning, once he's job is done, he can die no regret.

 

Thanks again for the feedback

Edited January 24, 2019 by Stunt

[Luke1705]

2 hours ago, CountryMou3e said:

why?

He’s a force multiplier. Makes the enlightened even better. You can always hit the fold reality button to bring back enlightened (indeed that is what Kairos is for) but you can’t do that for a dead shaman. So there’s no reason to let him die and let your enlightened get worse. You could argue that the enlightened are good enough without him (probably true) but why let him die? There’s no upside for you.

Also,  some missions you need heroes or wizards to score. He’s great there because who is mulching through 36 wounds in a turn? Not a lot of units, especially if you charge properly. But anyone can kill a lone hero.

[CountryMou3e]

12 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

He’s a force multiplier. Makes the enlightened even better. You can always hit the fold reality button to bring back enlightened (indeed that is what Kairos is for) but you can’t do that for a dead shaman. So there’s no reason to let him die and let your enlightened get worse. You could argue that the enlightened are good enough without him (probably true) but why let him die? There’s no upside for you.

Also,  some missions you need heroes or wizards to score. He’s great there because who is mulching through 36 wounds in a turn? Not a lot of units, especially if you charge properly. But anyone can kill a lone hero.

who's going to have which spell in that case? The shaman can only take one. I also get what you are saying but there are better heroes to use if you need something tanky, it will make you play him quite defensively as the chaff wont be able to keep up?  

Edited January 24, 2019 by CountryMou3e

[Luke1705]

15 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

who's going to have which spell in that case? The shaman can only take one. I also get what you are saying but there are better heroes to use if you need something tanky, it will make you play him quite defensively as the chaff wont be able to keep up?  

Depends which ones you take. If you go:

LoC - Bolt of Tzeentch

Kairos - Fold Reality

Gaunt - Shield of Fate

Shaman - Treacherous Bond

If you’re only taking Kairos and no LoC, I would give the summoner the arch sorcerer command trait so far you can still get shield of fate.

Chaff keeping up with the shaman doesn’t matter. You can pile wounds on the enlightened that he has to stay close to anyways because you can bring those guys back.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Luke1705

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Luke1705 said:

He’s great there because who is mulching through 36 wounds in a turn? Not a lot of units,

20 evocators with thier personal spell and only 10 of them making it into melee range. 

30 witch aelves

9 enlightend with help from a spell casting LoC

15 fanatics

40(#?) Buffed spear skeletons

Honorable mentions:

9 morrsarr do 30 wounds, but 6 could easily do it on turn 3. 

Arkhan could do it, requires luck. But he can out range a none magical supremacy LoC really easy and cast his spell uncontested. 

Most armies can do it on a double turn. 

 

Anyway there are alot of units/armkes that can demolish a unit of 9 enlightend. 

 

8 hours ago, Stunt said:

He's there to give the Enlightened missile a bit more punch and be a fast beacon for summoning, once he's job is done, he can die no regret.

This. Some time's i dont even take the shaman. If you look at his buff it only buffs 55% of your damage by 33%. Which results in only a 18% buff to the unit. Meaning he's worth less than 2 enlightend models. 

 

The great bray i think is quite alright, but only because the list has portal to enhance the spells range. With out the portal i honestly think the enlightend wound be in walking distance to anything he is range to cast on. 

 

If you want a better buffer the chaos sorcerer lord has a great spell that is actualy a much bigger buff to your enlightend.

 

 

Edited January 24, 2019 by mmimzie

[Luke1705]

25 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

20 evocators with thier personal spell and only 10 of them making it into melee range. 

30 witch aelves

9 enlightend with help from a spell casting LoC

15 fanatics

40(#?) Buffed spear skeletons

Honorable mentions:

9 morrsarr do 30 wounds, but 6 could easily do it on turn 3. 

Arkhan could do it, requires luck. But he can out range a none magical supremacy LoC really easy and cast his spell uncontested. 

Most armies can do it on a double turn. 

 

Anyway there are alot of units/armkes that can demolish a unit of 9 enlightend. 

Evocators can deep strike yes but you can screen those out.

Same with morrsarr because let’s be honest they’re not starting on the table.

Sure in a mirror matchup tzeentch could kill tzeentch.

I forget what Arkhan’s average output is, but it is certainly not more than 10. Anything can happen with luck but we’re talking averages here.

Most other units you can charge in such a way that only their front line is going to hit you, so 10-15 models tops.

If you’re really afraid, just keep as many models as you can at 4.1” away (in practice this is like 7 usually) and then when they go, you hardly get hit. Even if they stay where they are, you’re still piling in 3 with 2” reach on the spears so unless they also have 2” reach, you’re fine (unless they’re Morrsarrs or Evocators. Tbh though with stormcast I think our mortal wound output is enough to deal with them. And I run skyfires so my enlightened would definitely charge something beside the Evocators haha)

[Stunt]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

If you want a better buffer the chaos sorcerer lord has a great spell that is actualy a much bigger buff to your enlightend.

Unfortunately, one of my team mates is using Slaves to Darkness, so it locks me out of that faction (team tournament restrictions).

[mmimzie]

52 minutes ago, Stunt said:

Unfortunately, one of my team mates is using Slaves to Darkness, so it locks me out of that faction (team tournament restrictions).

that's fair though if your friend can target your stuff perhaps he could  bring the sorc to help buff your enlightend

[Stunt]

8 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

that's fair though if your friend can target your stuff perhaps he could  bring the sorc to help buff your enlightend

For sake of completeness: it's 6 players per team but matches are played 1v1. A faction cannot be used more than once per team and realms are not used.

[mmimzie]

22 minutes ago, Stunt said:

For sake of completeness: it's 6 players per team but matches are played 1v1. A faction cannot be used more than once per team and realms are not used.

can you have realm artifacts?

[Stunt]

Nope.

[TactfulSaturn]

On 1/23/2019 at 7:12 PM, Stunt said:

Silly question maybe, but why not both ?

 

I'm currently designing a list for a team event and I can't decide between both... to the point that I'm considering how I can make room for both.

I've been running a list using both Kairos & LoC, albeit in only a semi-competitive environment, so far I've had my opponent conceed the match. 

 

General - LoC (Arch-sorcerer, Mark of the Conjurer) 380

        - Tzeentch Inferno, Fold Reality, Arcane Transformation

Kairos 380 

        - Bolt of Tzeentch

Gaunt Summoner 180

        - Treacherous Bond

10x Kairic Acolytes 80

10 x Kairic Acolytes 80

20 x Tzaangor 360

9 x Enlightened 420

Cogs - 60

Spell Portal - 60   (Or Vortex & Swords for the same points)

 

I use the Acolytes as screens, and with the cogs on my LoC I normally end up with at least 10 fate points in my first turn, letting me summon a unit of blues to act as further screens. All three heros dish out the MWs, normally using the Gaunt and Spell Portal to take out horde units, particularly ones sat on objectives. Kairos can tie up units with his Chaos spawn and the LoC can normally target more powerful units with a double hit of Infernal Gateway and Tzeentch Inferno (with a Kairos Bolt of Tzeentch to follow up if needed). The Enlightened run around doing there thing safe in the knowledge I can get 6 back with fold reality cast either by Kairos or LoC. The 20 Tzaangor provide a 40 wound unit to tie up enemy units and I normally just use them to control one side of the board.

 

Works well for me, I don't really miss having pinks as I tend to prefer a 'hit them hard and fast' kind of play style and then grab objectives when they haven't got much left.  I'm also toying with the idea of changing the Tzaangor for another unit of 10 Acolytes and a seperate squad of 6 Enlightened but I haven't decided whether to make that investment yet or not.