AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kharneth]

Someone please explain what other meanings the sentence "On a roll of 1, the unit is wiped out!" has.

It is not ambiguous. The wording is perfectly clear, the only issue is that it isn't using the words that you want it to use. They don't use the word "slain," but there is no other interpretation of what "wiped out" means other than the entire unit is destroyed, which means every remaining model in the unit is destroyed. 

[obmik1]

11 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Someone please explain what other meanings the sentence "On a roll of 1, the unit is wiped out!" has.

It is not ambiguous. The wording is perfectly clear, the only issue is that it isn't using the words that you want it to use. They don't use the word "slain," but there is no other interpretation of what "wiped out" means other than the entire unit is destroyed, which means every remaining model in the unit is destroyed. 

Actually, slain is clearly defined. And removing models due to battle shock is clearly defined as models being slain. Wiped out is not clearly defined and so it is not our job to explain what other meaning wiped out could have, because it could literally mean anything, it is our job to prove it means slain, as we are trying to gain benefit from it.

[Asore23]

22 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Yeah you get the fate points.

 

You can't reroll a die more than once for any reason.

 

Nah you dont need tzaangors. Probably won't even use his spell.

 

Tzeentch isn't the cheapest option due to summoning. Means you need to have another 50% army ready and waiting. 

Do you have any suggestion about possible lists/where to find some template lists? Just to se what would be the possible expences. P.s. what are the must-have for evocations?

[Kharneth]

1 minute ago, obmik1 said:

Actually, slain is clearly defined. And removing models due to battle shock is clearly defined as models being slain. Wiped out is not clearly defined and so it is not our job to explain what other meaning wiped out could have, because it could literally mean anything, it is our job to prove it means slain, as we are trying to gain benefit from it.

That is untrue. We are obligated to play by the rules whether it is to our benefit or not. The idea that it is our responsibility to prove a ruling merely because it is for our benefit is ridiculous. 

The word "slain" is not the only word that can be used. It is not a keyword. Words have synonyms. There is no confusion in regards to what "wiped out" means. It's foolish of GW to use slang in their writing, but the phrase "wiped out" in this context is not ambiguous. "Wiped out" is a common phrase used in Warhammer to describe a unit whose remaining models are slain at all once. 

[mmimzie]

19 minutes ago, obmik1 said:

Actually, slain is clearly defined. And removing models due to battle shock is clearly defined as models being slain. Wiped out is not clearly defined and so it is not our job to explain what other meaning wiped out could have, because it could literally mean anything, it is our job to prove it means slain, as we are trying to gain benefit from it.

I mean if this is the case. The definition of "wiped out" just means either tired or high. I could just say my pinks are enjoying a nice trip and i dont actually lose any models. 

[Kharneth]

45 minutes ago, obmik1 said:

Actually, slain is clearly defined. And removing models due to battle shock is clearly defined as models being slain. Wiped out is not clearly defined and so it is not our job to explain what other meaning wiped out could have, because it could literally mean anything, it is our job to prove it means slain, as we are trying to gain benefit from it.

You're right. Slain is defined as when a model is brought to 0 wounds. Therefore Fold Reality does not slay anything as "wiped out" has no definition. Therefore, when a 1 is rolled for Fold Reality nothing happens. 

"On a roll of a 1, the unit is wiped out!" might as well say "On a roll of 1, the unit is spaghetti!" 

Edited January 14, 2019 by Kharneth

[CountryMou3e]

2 hours ago, Drib said:

"[...] On a roll of 1, the unit is wiped out!" -Battletome p.83

It does not specifically say that ever model is slain.

Wiped out = destroyed = slain... its older terminology that hasn’t been brought upto date. If the unit is lost from fold reality, you gain X amount of blue horror points dependant on Y amount of pinks taken off the table from rolling a 1

flip current examples with the old terminology and it still works: 

10 evocators zapped my 10 pink horrors and wiped the unit. 

[Kharneth]

Just now, CountryMou3e said:

Wiped out = destroyed = slain... its older terminology that hasn’t been brought upto date. If the unit is lost from fold reality, you gain X amount of blue horror points dependant on Y amount of pinks taken off the table from rolling a 1

flip current examples with the old terminology and it still works: 

10 evocators zapped my 10 pink horrors and wiped the unit. 

Technically you don't even need X as you'll simply get 2Y Blue Horror points if Y is slain Pink Horrors.

[CountryMou3e]

6 minutes ago, Kharneth said:

Technically you don't even need X as you'll simply get 2Y Blue Horror points if Y is slain Pink Horrors.

Calm down 😂

the point being pinks lost from a failed fold reality generate blue horror points 

Edited January 14, 2019 by CountryMou3e

[Kharneth]

58 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Calm down 😂

the point being pinks lost from a failed fold reality generate blue horror points 

Yeah.

I'd be surprised if anyone finds someone who contests this, but in such a case I'd feel like they were being very unfriendly to refuse to interpret "wiped out" as counting as slain. I'd lose those blue horror points that game and refuse any future games with the player. Or in a tournament let the TO decide, but anyone whose played previous editions of Warhammer would be familiar with that phrase. 

If this isn't good enough, you can email GW and get a rules answer from them.

[Warfiend]

Hello guys, I'm new to the disciples of Tzeentch, but I'm going to make a list because Tzeentch is my favorite chaos god, and I love the scheming and magicey aspect of it all. The thing is I recently got Archaon, because when I started playing warhammer fantasy over15 years ago I played chaos and archaon was my main man back then. So I want him to be part of my army.
 

I usually play with some of my friends and we don't play the most competitive of lists most of the time but they're not bad either. So I was wondering if it's possible to have Archaon in a Tzeentch list that features around casting a lot of spells without the list being bad. But preferably without horrors as I prefer tzaangor or even the acolytes for battleline units 
 

Currently I got:
Archaon
Gaunt Summoner with familiars or a disk (got one from Ahriman)
Curseling
Changeling
Tzaangor Shaman
3x Tzaangor Skyfires
Demonprince (metal be'lakor)
 

I was thinking of making something like this:
Archaon (660)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180)
The Blue Scribes (140)
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
Lord of Change (380)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (160)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Anyways would love some insight in this as the armies I currently play aren't as hero/magic focused.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Warfiend

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, CountryMou3e said:

Wiped out = destroyed = slain... its older terminology that hasn’t been brought upto date. If the unit is lost from fold reality, you gain X amount of blue horror points dependant on Y amount of pinks taken off the table from rolling a 1

flip current examples with the old terminology and it still works: 

10 evocators zapped my 10 pink horrors and wiped the unit. 

Fyi i was just point out the dumb hole we go down if you want to say that the models arent slain. 

 

The unit cant count as destoryed as all models must either flee or be slain. 

 

We start poking holes at the meaning of wiped out, etc. 

[TopHatCat]

Just for some theorycrafting fun/a starting point.

If you were to build a Daemons of Tzeentch army using only the Start Collecting boxes;
(So 2xBurning Chariot (Which we can stick a Herald or Flamer on), 2xHerald (on foot, on disc, or on the Chariot), 6xFlamers, 6xScreamers and 20xPink Horrors)
What sort of list would you build? Obviously not going to be optimal, can also in theory convert some units, but for starting out at 1,000pts, what would you chose? (plus Artefacts, Spells, all that good stuff)

(I'm guessing something like, Herald on Chariot, 20 Pink Horrors, 3 Screamers, 3 Screamers and Chariot for 960? Yeah I've no idea whats good haha!)

Looking to help a friend get started and they want to buy 2 of the Start Collecting boxes before they go up in price (Since they love the Daemons way more than Tzaangors). So please help me pick the best of the "worst" haha, so can have some fun casual games at the very least!

Edited January 14, 2019 by TopHatCat

[Kharneth]

7 minutes ago, TopHatCat said:

Just for some theorycrafting fun/a starting point.

If you were to build a Daemons of Tzeentch army using only the Start Collecting boxes;
(So 2xBurning Chariot (Which we can stick a Herald or Flamer on), 2xHerald (on foot, on disc, or on the Chariot), 6xFlamers, 6xScreamers and 20xPink Horrors)
What sort of list would you build? Obviously not going to be optimal, can also in theory convert some units, but for starting out at 1,000pts, what would you chose? (plus Artefacts, Spells, all that good stuff)

(I'm guessing something like, Herald on Chariot, 20 Pink Horrors, 3 Screamers, 3 Screamers and Chariot for 960? Yeah I've no idea whats good haha!)

Looking to help a friend get started and they want to buy 2 of the Start Collecting boxes before they go up in price (Since they love the Daemons way more than Tzaangors). So please help me pick the best of the "worst" haha, so can have some fun casual games at the very least!

Personally I'd stick with 1, but if he's buying 2 I'd build a Burning Chariot and a Herald on Burning Chariot. Then I'd build a Herald on Disc and an Exalted Flamer. I'd start with a list that included 2x10 Pink Horrors and a unit of 3 Flamers. 

These aren't competitive decisions. They are choices designed to give a beginner a variety of options. It would be smart to have a wizard stay near the pink horrors. The herald on foot has a better spell than the one on the disc, but the one on the disc is more useful for summoning, which daemons are good at. Your friend won't be doing much summoning with the get started box, but if he's interested in daemons of Tzeentch he'll likely get into summoning down the line and will appreciate a Herald on Disc.

I've heard bad things about the chariot, but if he's going to have 2 I'd make one of each. The Exalted Flamer is a good cheap summonable option, especially when all 6 Flamers are already being used in a list. I haven't heard good things about Screamers, either but they're only 10 fate points or 100 points so make for a good summonable unit or filler unit. 

140 - Herald on Disc - This guy's spell is more reliable to cast than the Herald on Foot. Plus the disc's movement is awesome and adds a good punch in melee, which can happen.

400 - 2x10 Pink Horrors. These guys are best with a supplement of Blue/Brimstone Horrors and predatory endless spells so they can be sacrificed.

160 - 3 Flamers. These guys are a little more expensive than they're worth, but provide excellent mobile firepower. Pro-tip, your friend can direct each flamer to target a different unit to spread the capricious flame rule dealing mortal wounds on a 4+ to each unit that was wounded by their shooting attack.

In short, the Pink Horrors, Herald, and Flamers are the most useful aspects of the box and I'd recommend starting with them.

In terms of spells, he'll only have access to the Lore of Daemons. Bolt of Tzeentch > Unchecked Mutation > Tzeentch Firestorm. Treason of Tzeentch is all right against hordes, but there are better options (Gaunt Summoner). Arcane Transformation can be useful, but probably not with the units your friend will have. Fold Reality is a very useful spell that can be used on the Pink Horrors or the Flamers.

My go-to artefact has become the Gryph-Feather Charm as it provides -1 to be hit by attacks, which is pretty much always useful. I put it on my most valued caster. As for command traits, Arch-sorcerer is good, Magical Supremacy is good, and Incorporeal Form is good. I'd recommend your friend uses Arch-sorcerer to begin with as that'll give him access to extra spells so he can experiment with their uses. Incorporeal Form helps protect the caster and Magical Supremacy helps shut down enemy spell casting, but it's useful to experience what it's like without these bonuses first so that you can appreciate their effect when you take them. 

Anyway, the best part about fun and casual games is that you and your friend get to learn what is effective against each other as you play. I find a lot of meta-solutions don't work against my friends because they don't always make the smartest decisions and their foolish choices sometimes mess up my plans. 

[MitGas]

I just wanted to add one thing to the above post: Small units of Screamers are trash. I love the models dearly but their use is so specific that there are usually a million better options for those summoning points (or points) out there. They'd be great if they always did 1d3 wounds but so far I haven't found great use for them that Enlightened aren't way better at for only a few points more.  

My friends don't field many monster though so your mileage may vary. As it stands they are the one Tzeentch unit that IMO needs a buff the most.

Reading this thread, it also looks like regular Tzaangors are in need of some love now as well... well, let's hope Darkoath will bring good Chaos Warrior sculpts (well, good is the wrong word, they aren't bad but pretty dated compared to the new stuff thanks to their poses), then at least we got a sexy alternative for them.

Oh and while I'm at it: I think our sorcerers cost too much now.

[CountryMou3e]

16 hours ago, Warfiend said:

Hello guys, I'm new to the disciples of Tzeentch, but I'm going to make a list because Tzeentch is my favorite chaos god, and I love the scheming and magicey aspect of it all. The thing is I recently got Archaon, because when I started playing warhammer fantasy over15 years ago I played chaos and archaon was my main man back then. So I want him to be part of my army.
 

I usually play with some of my friends and we don't play the most competitive of lists most of the time but they're not bad either. So I was wondering if it's possible to have Archaon in a Tzeentch list that features around casting a lot of spells without the list being bad. But preferably without horrors as I prefer tzaangor or even the acolytes for battleline units 
 

Currently I got:
Archaon
Gaunt Summoner with familiars or a disk (got one from Ahriman)
Curseling
Changeling
Tzaangor Shaman
3x Tzaangor Skyfires
Demonprince (metal be'lakor)
 

I was thinking of making something like this:
Archaon (660)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180)
The Blue Scribes (140)
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)
Lord of Change (380)
10 x Tzaangors (180)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (160)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
Umbral Spellportal (60)

Anyways would love some insight in this as the armies I currently play aren't as hero/magic focused.

Archoan is good for fun lists but in all honesty , he doesn't really have much damage output and unless your running around killing big characters - there are better ways to spend his points. Enlightened are a good example!

[relic456]

On 1/10/2019 at 4:33 PM, mmimzie said:

No all predstory endless spells must be moved before you can get back to turns. As per the predatory endless spell rules in malign sorceries. 

Hey sorry I know this was a few pages back but just wanted to clarify that you can move 0" as per the FAQ (page 4 of Core Rules and Base Sizes).  So if you summon the Pendulum properly, it'll do 2d6 mortal wounds without your opponent being able to do much about it.

Edit: Clarified 2d6 mortal wounds statement.

Edited January 15, 2019 by relic456

[Kharneth]

16 minutes ago, relic456 said:

Hey sorry I know this was a few pages back but just wanted to clarify that you can move 0" as per the FAQ (page 4 of Core Rules and Base Sizes).  So if you summon the Pendulum properly, it can do 2d6 mortal wounds.

Beautiful! I knew 0 was up to 8. So I could even keep my pendulum stationary and as long as I left my pink horrors within an inch of it the previous turn they'd take damage

[MrRoff]

Hello again!
Another question!

The fold reality spell.
Can you use Kaoris once per game ability "oracle of eternity" to automaticly change the dice to a 6?

[Calypso2ts]

4 minutes ago, MrRoff said:

Hello again!
Another question!

The fold reality spell.
Can you use Kaoris once per game ability "oracle of eternity" to automaticly change the dice to a 6?

Yes that is the main reason for his inclusion in lists with 9x Enlightened/Skyfires

[Luke1705]

7 hours ago, Calypso2ts said:

Yes that is the main reason for his inclusion in lists with 9x Enlightened/Skyfires

Or 9 of each! 🙂

[CountryMou3e]

13 hours ago, MrRoff said:

Hello again!
Another question!

The fold reality spell.
Can you use Kaoris once per game ability "oracle of eternity" to automaticly change the dice to a 6?

Kairos is a boss stil , knowing the spells of tzeentch wizards within 18 is super awesome. I saw how good this was first hand recently!

[CountryMou3e]

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate chaos spawn models ? Needs to be GW  

[Magnus The Blue]

27 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate chaos spawn models ? Needs to be GW  

I use two from the box set and two from the warshrine kit (some green stuff required).  But depends on what look\feel you are after?  Or is it just you want a cheaper alternative?

[CountryMou3e]

26 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I use two from the box set and two from the warshrine kit (some green stuff required).  But depends on what look\feel you are after?  Or is it just you want a cheaper alternative?

cheaper in this case , I want about 6-8 ish