AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Asimov]

On 10/23/2018 at 10:50 AM, Asimov said:

Yes your right for the second list. 

I won't probably use the increase in range of the Balewind .The Draconis knights are gonna be up in close combat in a blink. Moreover, I was thinking more wounds will help me to bubble wrap my heroes. In that direction here is another list (valid), do you guys think it can have a chance? 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
- General
- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Herald Of Tzeentch (140)
- Staff of Change
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Magister (140)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
10 x Blue Horrors Of Tzeentch (100)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 93
 

My plan is to hold the ground with 4 lines separated by 3"+. The blues in front take the hit, then the pinks, then the tzangors for the counter charge and finally the mages firing their ass off... 

So I played this list against an Order Draconis army. He was playing 1 Batallion with Dragon Loard + 3 * 5 Kights,  another unit of 5 knights 1 Lord on Steed and another one with Great Banner, and to finish an Eldrich ally with a mage on Dragon. 

As expected, he charged heads down on the first round (he got to play first), except for the  mage on dragon which was in cover in mid-table. I was waiting for him with a line of 10 Blues, followed by another line of 2*10 pinks, then a line of 20 Tzaangors and my mages behind. He called everything for the charge and wiped out all the 30 horrors, but got glued away from the Tzaangors and more importantly from the mages. When I got to play, I threw everything into the Dragon and got his head. In addition of the Brims and Chaos Spawn from the hero phase, I summoned only 20blues as I had not enough room for more (bad placement, I could have manage to have more space).  Then I started to reduce the knights. 

By the end of my second turn (played first on second round), He had only 1 knight left and the two lords on steed plus the mage on dragon.  The game was done but we played it until the end.

Horrors are really good for bubble wrap. Despite being expensive ( my pinks did not even have a chance to cast a spell)  they provide even more wounds to sustain the body line.  In addition MW are really awesome against elite armies without FnP. 

[mmimzie]

16 hours ago, Asimov said:

So I played this list against an Order Draconis army. He was playing 1 Batallion with Dragon Loard + 3 * 5 Kights,  another unit of 5 knights 1 Lord on Steed and another one with Great Banner, and to finish an Eldrich ally with a mage on Dragon. 

As expected, he charged heads down on the first round (he got to play first), except for the  mage on dragon which was in cover in mid-table. I was waiting for him with a line of 10 Blues, followed by another line of 2*10 pinks, then a line of 20 Tzaangors and my mages behind. He called everything for the charge and wiped out all the 30 horrors, but got glued away from the Tzaangors and more importantly from the mages. When I got to play, I threw everything into the Dragon and got his head. In addition of the Brims and Chaos Spawn from the hero phase, I summoned only 20blues as I had not enough room for more (bad placement, I could have manage to have more space).  Then I started to reduce the knights. 

By the end of my second turn (played first on second round), He had only 1 knight left and the two lords on steed plus the mage on dragon.  The game was done but we played it until the end.

Horrors are really good for bubble wrap. Despite being expensive ( my pinks did not even have a chance to cast a spell)  they provide even more wounds to sustain the body line.  In addition MW are really awesome against elite armies without FnP. 

nice report yeah definitly seems like list like that dragon list would need to count on a double turn to make it through our considerably decent screen. the good large bases on the kairic acolytes/pink horrors make them nice space filling screens for out wizard clumps.

That said i think that game might have been considerably tougher if he could have gotten a double off on you?? not entirely sure though as i don't know the whole of the logistics. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

13 hours ago, mmimzie said:

nice report yeah definitly seems like list like that dragon list would need to count on a double turn to make it through our considerably decent screen. the good large bases on the kairic acolytes/pink horrors make them nice space filling screens for out wizard clumps.

That said i think that game might have been considerably tougher if he could have gotten a double off on you?? not entirely sure though as i don't know the whole of the logistics. 

Might be reading it wrong, but the opponent took the first turn, so couldn't double.

[mmimzie]

3 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Might be reading it wrong, but the opponent took the first turn, so couldn't double.

Yeah I knew that. Sorry if I wasn't clear. 

 

Was saying it might have been scarier if he took the 2nd turn and and aimed for the double. 

 

As I'd you move up it just makes his turn 1 alpha strike more threatening and if he gets the double he'd be likely to find whole to poke some dragon noses into your wizards.

[Shaft]

On 10/25/2018 at 2:36 AM, Shaft said:

Just get a big win over DoK (60 witches and Morathi instead of the classic 90 Witches, but still a tough list).

I've got a Major victory (2 comets mission) thanks to my higher experience with my army.

The Heroes do exactly what I expect by them: tons of Mortal damage and complete control of the magic (so useful to dispell at 42")

Tzaangor Enlightened (at my own personal first try) seemed to me less resilient and poor punchy compared to the pre-nerf Tzaangors. Still they're the only close combat hammer we have, so we must try to get their best.

Really unsure 'bout the 2x10 Tzaangors units. Probably it wasn't the best match to try their new potential but, in this configuration, they seems frail and with poor offensive output.

Next week starts the league and my forecast is I will beat the less experienced opponents and will lose against the Pro Players, with this such of list. ?

Second and last test-match with my list. This time against a good all-around Stormcast list (10 Evocators, 20 Sequitors, 3 Ballista + Lord Ordinator, 2x5 Judicators, Gavriel, Lord Arcanum, Castellant).

Win by Major victory.

The strategy was the usual one. Protect Heroes with the Kairic, cast a lot of Mortal Wounds and countercharge with Enlightened and Tzaangors.

Once again the Heroes done their Job (funny to see the LoC taking only 4 wounds from 2 multi-shot Ballista  thanks to Etheral Amulet and Shield of Fate ) with the spell.

Enlightened worked well thanks to a better use of the Shaman.

Really upset by the 2 units of 10 Tzaangors. For their cost, they do nothing offensively. With the same points I will probably buy and add 6 more Enlightened and 10 Kairic or 20 Marauders.

[Asimov]

On 10/28/2018 at 12:40 AM, mmimzie said:

Yeah I knew that. Sorry if I wasn't clear. 

 

Was saying it might have been scarier if he took the 2nd turn and and aimed for the double. 

 

As I'd you move up it just makes his turn 1 alpha strike more threatening and if he gets the double he'd be likely to find whole to poke some dragon noses into your wizards.

You are right, it would have been harder if I went second on the second round. But honestly, I think I would have won. The Tzaangor were still screening my heroes, the big dragon was dead, the other one away and 1/4 of the knights dead already.  I had a big first turn. 

but you never know for sure

[Asimov]

I am gonna be playing against Skryre Clan on thursday. I have never encoutered those rats....
From what I have checked quickly, they are a more of an elite army than populous, unlike other skaven clans. And they are good with shooting.

A liste based on enlightened and/or tzaangors maybe? to nutralize the big threats quickly? 

[mmimzie]

21 minutes ago, Asimov said:

I am gonna be playing against Skryre Clan on thursday. I have never encoutered those rats....
From what I have checked quickly, they are a more of an elite army than populous, unlike other skaven clans. And they are good with shooting.

A liste based on enlightened and/or tzaangors maybe? to nutralize the big threats quickly? 

maybe they have good burst they can deploy warpfire cannons similar to what stormcast do with thier balista, but warpfire cannons hurt more and do nothing but mortal wounds at a longer range when they pop up. They also don't care about the character -1 to hit rule if you opponent loads up on 4 of those watch out for sure. If you go enlightend against  that your shamans might not be long for this world.

They do have lots of spooky shooting that might threaten your characters, but if they aren't loading up on the warpfire cannons i dont think you'll have to much issue. 

[Mhexin]

Any feedback on the filling out this list to 2K?

Lord of change 

Gaunt summoner 

Tzaangor shaman

Changeling

 

20x tzaangor

6x enlightened on disc 

3x skyfires

That gets me to 1760. Any feedback on adding or removing units to reach 2k? Doesn't have to be super competitive but I'd like to win some games!

 

[Paxter]

Ok before you check out the list below some notes: I know we cant bring terrain, but I got a tourney coming and it allows us whom have no terrain to bring one.. which obviously for competitive reasons u get 2 Gaunt summoners + the baleful realmgate = 20 pink horrors in turn 1.. So far I have played 4 games with them and won all 4. Which made me realize we should be allowed to use the realm gate, from a fluff point Chaos owns the All points... being able to strike anywhere at any time should be reflected in our armies... I mean whats the point of giving us some awesome rule for the summoner we can't use? when other armies like in death and alarielle can do the same.... anyway ranting aside below is my 2k list for the event. 

Some interesting pointers I can cast and gain to the maximum of 15 fate points in one turn, and the Marauders help me bubble up for alpha attacks. Spell wise gave me that old tzeentch feeling esp when we have access to realm magic. I kinda wish we can do this every time one of those small quick fixes GW can do to help other armies rather than doing what they always do nerf the strongest army. 

What do you guys think?


Allegiance: Tzeentch
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Lord Of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Gaunt Summoner (180)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Battleline
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Terrain
Baleful Realmgate

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131

[mmimzie]

41 minutes ago, Paxter said:

Ok before you check out the list below some notes: I know we cant bring terrain, but I got a tourney coming and it allows us whom have no terrain to bring one.. which obviously for competitive reasons u get 2 Gaunt summoners + the baleful realmgate = 20 pink horrors in turn 1.. So far I have played 4 games with them and won all 4. Which made me realize we should be allowed to use the realm gate, from a fluff point Chaos owns the All points... being able to strike anywhere at any time should be reflected in our armies... I mean whats the point of giving us some awesome rule for the summoner we can't use? when other armies like in death and alarielle can do the same.... anyway ranting aside below is my 2k list for the event. 

Some interesting pointers I can cast and gain to the maximum of 15 fate points in one turn, and the Marauders help me bubble up for alpha attacks. Spell wise gave me that old tzeentch feeling esp when we have access to realm magic. I kinda wish we can do this every time one of those small quick fixes GW can do to help other armies rather than doing what they always do nerf the strongest army. 

What do you guys think?


Allegiance: Tzeentch
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Lord Of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Incorporeal Form 
- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Gaunt Summoner (180)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180)
- Lore of Fate: Treacherous Bond
The Blue Scribes (140)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Battleline
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields
20 x Chaos Marauders (120)
- Axes & Shields
10 x Chaos Warriors (180)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)

Endless Spells
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Terrain
Baleful Realmgate

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 131

First be very sure that the tournament lets you also use the rules warscroll for the terrain you are bringing. 

if you can bring the gaunts and summon some pinks i really suggest bringing quick silver swords. It's a very easy spell to get off and you can use the swords to kill some of your pinks early and get some blues on the table. As the pinks are chaos they die on 5+s so you'll kill on average 4 of the pink horrors. This will give you 6 blue horror summoning points, enable a battle shock (for which you can use destiny dice to auto pass with a 1 and get d6 more horrors), and potentialy let you set some very fast forward blue horrors.

You can compound this with arcane sacrafice by making the gaunt summoner the general (which i recommend). This allows you to stab some more horror and get an average of another 2 horror kills and another 4 blue horror point. Meaning those two average about 10 blue horror summons a round. 

As for list fixing i'd make the tzaangor a 9 block. There is alot of reason for this, mainly being that you want there damage coming out in 1 attack choice. As the enlightend are pretty frail and if some one attacks a unit of tzaangor first (IE, if you have 2 units of enlightend in combat, the first you'll get to pick, and the 2nd the one will die to most anything that it will in combat with). Next you'll want fold reality to allow you to revive models. 3 man units you may as well be healing d3 models and actualy it kind of starts to not be worth ever using fold reality on that unit. However if you have a unit of 9 and you end up with 2 remaining fold reality becomes a pretty darn big deal. 

 

7 hours ago, Mhexin said:

Any feedback on the filling out this list to 2K?

Lord of change 

Gaunt summoner 

Tzaangor shaman

Changeling

 

20x tzaangor

6x enlightened on disc 

3x skyfires

That gets me to 1760. Any feedback on adding or removing units to reach 2k? Doesn't have to be super competitive but I'd like to win some games!

 

similar to above 9 man enlightend i think is the real awesome zone.  in 1 charge you can usualy get 7 or 8 of them in combat  and likely all the spears into your primary target. Not to mention again fold reality value. 

Also do you have enough battle line ithink if you are within 250pts you have to jump up the bracket to 2000pt requirments. 

[Paxter]

Yes I can and already checked with the TO

 

[Paxter]

30 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

First be very sure that the tournament lets you also use the rules warscroll for the terrain you are bringing. 

if you can bring the gaunts and summon some pinks i really suggest bringing quick silver swords. It's a very easy spell to get off and you can use the swords to kill some of your pinks early and get some blues on the table. As the pinks are chaos they die on 5+s so you'll kill on average 4 of the pink horrors. This will give you 6 blue horror summoning points, enable a battle shock (for which you can use destiny dice to auto pass with a 1 and get d6 more horrors), and potentialy let you set some very fast forward blue horrors.

You can compound this with arcane sacrafice by making the gaunt summoner the general (which i recommend). This allows you to stab some more horror and get an average of another 2 horror kills and another 4 blue horror point. Meaning those two average about 10 blue horror summons a round. 

As for list fixing i'd make the tzaangor a 9 block. There is alot of reason for this, mainly being that you want there damage coming out in 1 attack choice. As the enlightend are pretty frail and if some one attacks a unit of tzaangor first (IE, if you have 2 units of enlightend in combat, the first you'll get to pick, and the 2nd the one will die to most anything that it will in combat with). Next you'll want fold reality to allow you to revive models. 3 man units you may as well be healing d3 models and actualy it kind of starts to not be worth ever using fold reality on that unit. However if you have a unit of 9 and you end up with 2 remaining fold reality becomes a pretty darn big deal. 

 

similar to above 9 man enlightend i think is the real awesome zone.  in 1 charge you can usualy get 7 or 8 of them in combat  and likely all the spears into your primary target. Not to mention again fold reality value. 

Also do you have enough battle line ithink if you are within 250pts you have to jump up the bracket to 2000pt requirments. 

good points will work it out to the current list

[Mhexin]

15 hours ago, mmimzie said:

First be very sure that the tournament lets you also use the rules warscroll for the terrain you are bringing. 

if you can bring the gaunts and summon some pinks i really suggest bringing quick silver swords. It's a very easy spell to get off and you can use the swords to kill some of your pinks early and get some blues on the table. As the pinks are chaos they die on 5+s so you'll kill on average 4 of the pink horrors. This will give you 6 blue horror summoning points, enable a battle shock (for which you can use destiny dice to auto pass with a 1 and get d6 more horrors), and potentialy let you set some very fast forward blue horrors.

You can compound this with arcane sacrafice by making the gaunt summoner the general (which i recommend). This allows you to stab some more horror and get an average of another 2 horror kills and another 4 blue horror point. Meaning those two average about 10 blue horror summons a round. 

As for list fixing i'd make the tzaangor a 9 block. There is alot of reason for this, mainly being that you want there damage coming out in 1 attack choice. As the enlightend are pretty frail and if some one attacks a unit of tzaangor first (IE, if you have 2 units of enlightend in combat, the first you'll get to pick, and the 2nd the one will die to most anything that it will in combat with). Next you'll want fold reality to allow you to revive models. 3 man units you may as well be healing d3 models and actualy it kind of starts to not be worth ever using fold reality on that unit. However if you have a unit of 9 and you end up with 2 remaining fold reality becomes a pretty darn big deal. 

 

similar to above 9 man enlightend i think is the real awesome zone.  in 1 charge you can usualy get 7 or 8 of them in combat  and likely all the spears into your primary target. Not to mention again fold reality value. 

Also do you have enough battle line ithink if you are within 250pts you have to jump up the bracket to 2000pt requirments. 

Thanks for the reply. So maybe drop the changeling and add maybe 3 more enlightened. Then a unit for batteline, so pink horrors, more tzaangor or acolytes. Any suggestions?

 

And thanks for the previous suggestions

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Mhexin said:

Thanks for the reply. So maybe drop the changeling and add maybe 3 more enlightened. Then a unit for batteline, so pink horrors, more tzaangor or acolytes. Any suggestions?

 

And thanks for the previous suggestions

 

Depends on what you want out of them.

Kairics are nice as they all provide shooting back up for whatever ends up in engaged. Durabiliy/pts wise they are our middle of the road option, but they bring numbers and a ranged attack that can help tip the scales if you need it to. 

Tzaangors are tanks  rather low damage out put out side of something like beast of chaos giving them +1 attack. So they are all meat shield and about being durable rather than really putting out damage.

Pink horrors are expensive kairic acolytes that can cast a spell at +1 or better. The extra spell value is questionable at best well. IF you bring them you definitly want to bring a way to kill them yourself to farm blue horrors. As you won't get them out via your opponent killing them any time soon. That said these guys can do alot of tricky stuff. For instance, you can summon quick silver swords with another wizard (likely out of range for thier normal spells turn 1). Use the swords to kill an average of 4 pink horrors.  You can also use arcane sacrafice from your general to kill more. Then use fold reality to summon d6 more back (or just kill the rest for points, both is good).  These pink can be set up forward of the unit and getting average is more than +6" to your spell range and can allow you to get them in range to cast spells turn one. Also during you battle shock you can use a 1 to get another 6 pinks. (going first for tzneetch is general quiet poor for tzneetch as there isn't alot we can do to the enemy turn 1, and we don't want to unwrap out wizards from their bubble of safety). So pinks give us a thing we can do if we are stuck with such a worse case scenario.

For your list i'd look at pink or kairic acolytes if you don't care to bring thing to kill your own pink horrors. 

 

[Barteh]

I don't think Tzaangors should be viewed as tanky at all. The two wounds each they have is decent, but in no way is a unit of Tzaangors durable. The role of Tzaangors is to charge something and hit it very hard while at full unit size, because the moment they drop under 9 models they lose half-ish of their hitting power. With enough wizards units of 10 add a decent amount of pinging power (0.5 mortal wounds per wizard).

[mmimzie]

20 hours ago, Barteh said:

I don't think Tzaangors should be viewed as tanky at all. The two wounds each they have is decent, but in no way is a unit of Tzaangors durable. The role of Tzaangors is to charge something and hit it very hard while at full unit size, because the moment they drop under 9 models they lose half-ish of their hitting power. With enough wizards units of 10 add a decent amount of pinging power (0.5 mortal wounds per wizard).

i mean this isn't really true i'm afraid to say. 

First durability we can look at most the units in the game to see how tough the tzaangors are. If you do the math they are a step down durability wise from the chaos warrior and 2 steps down from a liberator durability wise when you factor in thier points. They also ahve mild mortal wound protection and still retain a save against even -3 ,4,5 rend. 

Damage wise i think for those who have been around and have played for some time you realistically just can't get more than 10 32mm bases into melee with the same target unit, and focusing down specific units is waaaaaaay more important than splashing some damage over multiple units. So much so that it's almost not even worth doing in some cases. Big units that skirt this sort of rule are units that are on 25s that can fight in 2 ranks or even 3 ranks depends on weapon range, and units with a force multiplying effect that propogates despite the number of models in base contact (evocators shooting all there mortal wound attacks into 1 unit despire only 1 model being in range, or fireslayer vulkite berserkers doing same). 

Tzaangors attempt to do this by giving you +1 attack at 9+ models in the unit.  However this is not good enough.

For one only 8 out of 20 of the models in a 20 block would benefit from this effect to it's fullist, while the other 2 of the 10 hypothetical models in range to your target would have paired weapons who do not benefit as hard. Next we need to realize that the tzaangor core weapons don't do enough damage on there own to even be worth buffing when compared to other units both in faction and out. 

Let us compare 3 enlightend vs 10 tzaangors (not getting the +1 attack buff and with).
(before comparing note: paired savage blades and greatblades actualy average the same before getting +1 attack so i'll just calculate for 8 greatblades and 2 paired)

3 enlightend with no hero near by and not benefiting from guided by the past vs 4+ save:
 will do 7.36wounds ( dmg per points: .0526)

10 tzaangor with  buff with near by arcanite hero cs 4+: <<with +1 attack buff>>
8 great blades: 3.55 dmg  <<7.11 dmg>>
2 paired blade weilders:  .888 dmg <<1.33>>
10 beaks: .833 dmg << 1.67>>
total damage 5.213 (per pts .0289 worse than your average shooting unit)<<10.11>>

Now if we compare with out the +1 attack the 3 enlighted for only 140pts do more  damage than 180pts worth of tzaangors. If we double the tzangor unit they almost double thier damage out put for those 10 model, but you are also paying double so it's a wash. You'd think if you run all 20 into maybe multiple different units this would help, but it wouldn't help you, as that just mean more attacks swing back at you that will cut down your now spread thin tzaangor unit on the counter swing... for a trade that wasn't really worth it. To bring more shame to this comparison the enlighted don't even have a hero near by to buff them, but i gave the tzangors thier hero buff. 

Also note where you can fit 10 tzaangor in the same place you can fit 8 enlighted. 

The tzaangor ping is nice, but again you can use this ability with a 10 man unit. in fact if you have 2 10 man units you'll do it twice as many times. This abiility is part of what makes it a decent tank unit, if it holds the line and lives with 1 guy remaining. It gets to do some free mortal wounds to your opponent's units.  Not to mention the need to be within 9" of multiple of your squishy vulnerable wizards to get those mortal wounds in the first place. It can even use this ability after retreating which is great as it lets you retreat and still put out some great mortal wound generation, while clearing up valuable melee surface area. 

Anyway it's not that i think tzaangor are bad infact i think they are very durable and have a great punish mechanic that lends itself well to an enlightend counter charge, and a vengeful mage battery. The unit however, does not bring enough frontal damage to be worth while. They don't bring it by value of buffs nor do they bring it by value of  surface area. Both of these things prove to be enough to keep tzaangors from being real melee threats offesnively. So i'd say tzaangors should be veiwed almost exclusively as a tanky battle line choice, with a great revengre mechanic. 




 

Edited November 1, 2018 by mmimzie

[Magnus The Blue]

You forgot to allow for Mutants, but generally, I agree with what you're saying, Tzaangor have  (post BoC changes) ok melee damage, a great banner and top notch resilience per point (8 points per wound with a 5+ and 6++). 

[Barteh]

10 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Stuff

First of all, your math is ignoring a couple of important factors, such as unit composition (one sword+shield, 4 greatblades one of which is twistbray, 5 paired of which 2 are mutants), oversimplifying the paired blades vs greatblades, ignoring ping, forgetting to apply the to wound bonus on beaks, etc. You're also conflating disk and non-disk Enlightened.

	Tzaangors
Single blade	0.4995
Greatblades	3.847962
Paired blades	3.7738
Beaks	2.583333
Total wounds	10.7046
Wounds per point	0.05947

	Disk Enlightened
Spear	5.919941
Beak	0.33333
Teeth and horns	2.64
Total wounds	8.893271
Wounds per point	0.063523

	Foot Enlightened
Spear	5.919994
Beak	0.3333
Total wounds	6.253294
Wounds per point	0.062533

I've included buffs across the board- the only one not included is Guided by the Past. Tzaangor damage is raised slightly, mostly as a function of beaks being better than assumed (BoC vs DoT). They lose a slight amount of damage to include the single blade with shield. Ping is also not included because it's hard to tell how much value you're getting out of it. Adding 0.5 wounds wouldn't be unfair, considering arcanite hero presence is assumed. This puts them at least squarely above "average shooting unit" as imagined by you.

However- this comparison is a non-starter to begin with. Why are you comparing battleline units to recently overbuffed elite units? I believe it's being shouted all over the interwebs that Enlightened are ridiculously powerful, especially for their cost. Foot enlightened have a tiny footprint but are slow, Disk enlightened are bigger but faster and get fly. Don't sleep on the regular Tzaangor's ability to run and charge, aiding their role.

 

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, Barteh said:

Tzaangors
Single blade	0.4995
Greatblades	3.847962
Paired blades	3.7738
Beaks	2.583333
Total wounds	10.7046
Wounds per point	0.05947



	Disk Enlightened
Spear	5.919941
Beak	0.33333
Teeth and horns	2.64
Total wounds	8.893271
Wounds per point	0.063523



	Foot Enlightened
Spear	5.919994
Beak	0.3333
Total wounds	6.253294
Wounds per point	0.062533

I did miss a few things, and your number definitely check with mine. Reguardless the point still stands that the tzaangors still suffer from the glaring weakness of fall off once they lose 2 models and the issue of lacking surface area. Charging in and only doing 10 wounds is not enough for a killer squad when your running into a unit of witchs/evocators/morrsarr fuard/plague drone/ghoul king of terrorghiet/etc. Where as a 9 man squad of enlightened on disc can hit with 8 model to the only 10 of a tzaangor foot squad.  As about 8 enlightened on disc is enough to pop a squad of witch elves or any of the above in about a round of combat, or atleast kill so many that the target unit wont matter. 

 

I will definitely concede that tzaangors can definitely hit rather hard, however I still contest they work better as a tanky unit in DoT than as your kill squad. 

 

Again tzaangors aren't bad and I'd even say they have some pretty decent damage out put looking at the mutants adding to your punching power, and the temporary +1 attack, but they are easily nuetared and in the current meta you just cant enough models into base. 

 

Right now the meta is about units you target with your killer melee unit dying or being made near useless with a single charge. Tzaangors cant bring that. They do bring a great tank unit with decent damage output and a cool ping attack 

[Satyrical Sophist]

Number of attacks	New 10 man	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Paired Blade	17	3.777777778	5.037037037	6.296296296
Regular Blade	3	0.5	0.6666666667	0.8333333333
Beak	20	2.9	3.333333333	4.166666667
Glaive	6	2.666666667	3.333333333	4
Boss Glaive	2	1.185185185	1.481481481	1.777777778
Total		11.02962963	13.85185185	17.07407407

 

That's what I get from the 10 man, which is pretty brutal. While they don't delete a unit of Evocators, generally expecting to kill 4 of 5 is pretty brutal (Assuming one mortal from wizard bonus). My Tzaangor use has mostly been to smash into a unit I want hurt, and be surprisingly difficult to finish off while doing chip damage.

Enlightened

# of attacks	Enlightened 3d	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Spear	10	5.925925867	7.407407333	8.8888888
Spear Rerolls	0	0	0	0
Beak	3	0.33333	0.44444	0.5555499777
Beak Rerolls	0	0	0	0
Disk	6	2.66666664	3.3333333	3.99999996
Disk Rerolls		0	0	0
Total		8.925922507	11.18518063	13.44443874

# of attacks	Enlightened 3dr	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Spear		0	0	0
Spear Rerolls	10	10.53497943	13.16872428	15.80246914
Beak		0	0	0
Beak Rerolls	3	0.7407407417	0.9876543223	1.234567853
Disk		0	0	0
Disk Rerolls	6	5.333333334	6.666666668	8.000000001
Total		16.6090535	20.82304527	25.03703699

 

Enlightened get nuts with their rerolls.  

 

 

 

[The_Yellow_Sign]

On 11/2/2018 at 11:18 AM, Satyrical Sophist said:

 

Number of attacks	New 10 man	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Paired Blade	17	3.777777778	5.037037037	6.296296296
Regular Blade	3	0.5	0.6666666667	0.8333333333
Beak	20	2.9	3.333333333	4.166666667
Glaive	6	2.666666667	3.333333333	4
Boss Glaive	2	1.185185185	1.481481481	1.777777778
Total		11.02962963	13.85185185	17.07407407

 

That's what I get from the 10 man, which is pretty brutal. While they don't delete a unit of Evocators, generally expecting to kill 4 of 5 is pretty brutal (Assuming one mortal from wizard bonus). My Tzaangor use has mostly been to smash into a unit I want hurt, and be surprisingly difficult to finish off while doing chip damage.

Enlightened

 

# of attacks	Enlightened 3d	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Spear	10	5.925925867	7.407407333	8.8888888
Spear Rerolls	0	0	0	0
Beak	3	0.33333	0.44444	0.5555499777
Beak Rerolls	0	0	0	0
Disk	6	2.66666664	3.3333333	3.99999996
Disk Rerolls		0	0	0
Total		8.925922507	11.18518063	13.44443874

 

# of attacks	Enlightened 3dr	#wounds vs 4+	#wounds vs 5+	#wounds vs 6+
Spear		0	0	0
Spear Rerolls	10	10.53497943	13.16872428	15.80246914
Beak		0	0	0
Beak Rerolls	3	0.7407407417	0.9876543223	1.234567853
Disk		0	0	0
Disk Rerolls	6	5.333333334	6.666666668	8.000000001
Total		16.6090535	20.82304527	25.03703699

 

Enlightened get nuts with their rerolls.  

 

 

 

Yeah Enlightened with rerolls are amazing now! I ran a unit of 6 in Beasts of Chaos recently and won a local tournament. I hid them behind an Ungor screen and after my opponent deleted the Ungors I would just pile-in and annihilate whatever was hiding there. I easily deleted an entire unit of Witch Elves with just the spear attacks, and deleted two (lightly wounded) Treelords in one phase, even with -1 to hit from one of their stomps going off. 

Skyfires are still actually pretty good, even after the nerf. Their shooting is kind of inconsistent, but they're surprisingly good in melee for a ranged unit, as long as they strike first. 

 

Edited November 7, 2018 by The_Yellow_Sign

[Satyrical Sophist]

9 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

Yeah Enlightened with rerolls are amazing now! I ran a unit of 6 in Beasts of Chaos recently and won a local tournament. I hid them behind an Ungor screen and after my opponent deleted the Ungors I would just pile-in and annihilate whatever was hiding there. I easily deleted an entire unit of Witch Elves with just the spear attacks, and deleted two (lightly wounded) Treelords in one phase, even with -1 to hit from one of their stomps going off. 

Skyfires are still actually pretty good, even after the nerf. Their shooting is kind of inconsistent, but they're surprisingly good in melee for a ranged unit, as long as they strike first. 

 

Had some very well performing Disc Enlightened yesterday. Six ended up wiping out 3 dracoline evocators, lord arcanum on dracoline, 10 sequitors and a knight incantor . Ended up having to fold reality back up after really messing up a morale check in sinister terrain, but otherwise ended up with 4 of the 6 alive at the end.

[Shaft]

First game of the league: major victory against a MSU Stormcast list with some shooting (2 Ballista and 2x5 Judicators), I run the list I've tested in the last weeks.

Strange opponents list and strange game. Usually the Stormcast list in my club are with big blobs of Sequitors and Evocators and you need to concentrate with Mortals and countercharge on 1 unit at time locking the other.

In this game I was forced to divide the army. The match was "Escalation" and I got the first turn. Decide to let one of the 3 obj  to my opponent and concentrate on the other two. He does the same but was almost wiped out at turn 4.

Enlightened and heroes was outstanding, as usual.

Still doubtful about the Tzaangors: when they was more than 9 they have a decent damage output but at same cost of 2x10 I can run 6 more Enlightened on Disc + another 1x10 Kairic. Same board control, and more efficient countercharge.

 

Another doubt is the artifact for the LoC: with Ethereal Amulet (combined with Shield of fate) he's truly resilient with his unmodifiable and rerollable 4+ save... but I find also interesting the Arch Sorcerer combined with Chronomantic Cogs to gain 6 fate point only with LoC per turn.

Any suggestions?

 

Edited November 10, 2018 by Shaft

[mmimzie]

5 hours ago, Shaft said:

First game of the league: major victory against a MSU Stormcast list with some shooting (2 Ballista and 2x5 Judicators), I run the list I've tested in the last weeks.

Strange opponents list and strange game. Usually the Stormcast list in my club are with big blobs of Sequitors and Evocators and you need to concentrate with Mortals and countercharge on 1 unit at time locking the other.

In this game I was forced to divide the army. The match was "Escalation" and I got the first turn. Decide to let one of the 3 obj  to my opponent and concentrate on the other two. He does the same but was almost wiped out at turn 4.

Enlightened and heroes was outstanding, as usual.

Still doubtful about the Tzaangors: when they was more than 9 they have a decent damage output but at same cost of 2x10 I can run 6 more Enlightened on Disc + another 1x10 Kairic. Same board control, and more efficient countercharge.

 

Another doubt is the artifact for the LoC: with Ethereal Amulet (combined with Shield of fate) he's truly resilient with his unmodifiable and rerollable 4+ save... but I find also interesting the Arch Sorcerer combined with Chronomantic Cogs to gain 6 fate point only with LoC per turn.

Any suggestions?

 

It's not arch sorcerer is mark of conjuration I believe. ??? As arch sorcerer is just 2 more spells that you dont particularly need.

 

I personally prefer the mark with cogs. Getting 60pts a turn is pretty nice on your best wizard, also cogs open up more turn 1 charge possibilities if that's what you need. 

 

On the ethereal amulet one real weakness is a really good shooting list (that doesnt currently exist in the current meta). The amulet can help some against that, but that's all I see it being useful for. 

I agree with the tzaangors. They aren't bad persay but i find the amount of space and multiple small units you get from having kairic acolytes.