AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[JonnyTheKing]

What weapon is best on a Lord of Change?

[RaritanAnon]

8 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

What weapon is best on a Lord of Change?

I say Staff absolutely. 2d6 shots at 3+/3+ is sick. Speaking of, I'm hard considering countering the meta enlightened spam with this nonsense list. What do you guys think? 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Lord Of Change (380)

- General

- Trait: Arcane Sacrifice 

- Artefact: Mark of the Conjurer 

- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Tzaangor Shaman (180)

- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion

Kairos Fateweaver (380)

- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)

- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

10 x Pink Horrors Of Tzeentch (200)

- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

20 x Tzaangors (360)

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Balewind Vortex (40)

Malevolent Maelstrom (20)

 

Total: 2000 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 99

[Drib]

11 hours ago, JonnyTheKing said:

What weapon is best on a Lord of Change?

For me it was the Sword. As it has 4 Attacks per Battleround with 4+/2+/-2/3 . Still there is no true winner as it is preference and playstyle depending.

But as I am re-reading the Lord of Change's Description it's either Staff+Sword, Staff+Rod or Staff+Beak .. I always assumed he could "Sword, Staff and Beak".

Edited October 11, 2018 by Drib

[AverageBoss]

That has always been a common misconception. But it has indeed been the case since DoT was printed, he forgets how to use his beak when he picks up a 2nd weapon, making that weapon profile completely worthless.

How have people been finding LoC since the points hike/2.0 drop? He seems really high for what he brings to the table nowadays imo. I feel like I could just take any 2-3 other casters for the same points and get far more work done.

Edited October 11, 2018 by AverageBoss

[Stunt]

I think he can be useful in an heavy magic list. There is also the obvious synergy with Mark of the Conjurer, combined with Cogs, He could grant you 6 Fate points per turn.

[Magnus The Blue]

1 hour ago, Drib said:

For me it was the Sword. As it has 4 Attacks per Battleround with 4+/2+/-2/3 . Still there is no true winner as it is preference and playstyle depending.

But as I am re-reading the Lord of Change's Description it's either Staff+Sword, Staff+Rod or Staff+Beak .. I always assumed he could "Sword, Staff and Beak".

Sword is my favourite option too, great with Arcane Transformation and amazing if you have some 2s and 4s in your destiny dice,  Nothing like hitting someone with 3 rend -2 damage 3 attacks without rolling a dice. 

36 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

How have people been finding LoC since the points hike/2.0 drop? He seems really high for what he brings to the table nowadays imo. I feel like I could just take any 2-3 other casters for the same points and get far more work done.

1

Entirely depends on the rest of your list, casting along is probably not worth it. That said, an undamaged LoC does average 6 MW from it's spell, which is more than most wizards can do with 2 casts.

In a mostly demon list it's ability to hold it's own in combat (unlike any other Tzeentch demons) and the command ability makes it a reasonably priced addition.  Firing the command ability 2-3 times in a turn when your rocking lots of demon wizards can make for a devastating magic phase, easily capable of throwing out 20+ mortal wounds and gutting an enemies heroes or elite units.  Also easily the best unit for getting the most value from artefacts and command abilities. Against some armies, a -2 to hit monster with buckets of wounds (that you'll struggle to take down with spells) is an absolute nightmare to deal with. If your feeling particularly nasty, hit a unit with Germin of light before charging with the LoC, nothing if very scaring with -3 to hit!

[Drib]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

How have people been finding LoC since the points hike/2.0 drop? He seems really high for what he brings to the table nowadays imo. I feel like I could just take any 2-3 other casters for the same points and get far more work done.

@Magnus The Blue did sum it up very well!

But wait, there is more: The spellsteal is also very strong.

I think a LoC+Cogs is totally worth their points when used along with The Mark of the Conjurer!

[AverageBoss]

So what would be the thoughts on this list?
 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Lord Of Change (380)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (180)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
Magister (140)
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 6x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8x Savage Greatblade
- 6x Savage Blade & Arcanite Shield
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (140)
Mutalith Vortex Beast (200)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)
Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 122
 

Ogroid and Magister are there for more spells, throwing out damage, and pinning things down with summoned brims/spawns. Not sure on the Mutalith, but I do want to try it our at least. Seems like it could be a decent distraction at the very least, with a 1/3 chance of doing D6 mortal wounds. Might replace it with Skyfires though. Only have the 3 Enlightened atm. Hesitant to but more as I am expecting a points hike next ghb (probably back to 160).

[MitGas]

Hi guys, 

anyone got a few good tips against Blightking-heavy Nurgle lists? Geminids are important for the -1 I imagine but are there any other debuffs that can counter their insane hitroll ability? Our jolly Nurgle-player is very, very lucky with his dice rolls and tabled our Ironjawz player easily last game (we usually play 2v2).

I was thinking about running 2 squads of 10 Pink Horrors, an Ogroid, a Tzaangor shaman, 3xEnlightened for a 1k points game (against Nurgle and StD) while our Ironjawz player will go lots of Ardboyz and Brutes. Unfortunately I can't fit in my favorite, the Gaunt Summoner, but I really wanna try the insane CC of the Ogroid for a change.

[Waiyuren]

On 10/11/2018 at 8:46 AM, JonnyTheKing said:

What weapon is best on a Lord of Change?

I pinned my LoC's hand so i can swap it for either. The sword + ethereal is a fun combo and gives him some defense/damage in close combat, but the rod is decent too. Decent, but not awesome; on average you'll put 3 no-rend wounds on something, but occasionally it'll go nuts and put out 8+. ?

[Malakithe]

Looks like the Beasts FAQ is allowing god battalions to go full on god mode. That will open a lot of strange doors

[decker_cky]

Just now, Malakithe said:

Looks like the Beasts FAQ is allowing god battalions to go full on god mode. That will open a lot of strange doors

Not sure how good it will be for tzeentch, since aside from Tzaangor shamans, none of the beasts of chaos characters have access to Tzeentch spells, command traits or magic items. There's also not really any generic tzeentch buff abilities out there (blue scribes spell is the only one I can think of). 

Tzeentch armies either aren't going to get value from their summoning or aren't going to get any value from the battalion ability. 200 pts for the battalion eats into the value you would get from Beasts units for cheap bodies and cheap hard hitters.

[Pandamina]

44 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Not sure how good it will be for tzeentch, since aside from Tzaangor shamans, none of the beasts of chaos characters have access to Tzeentch spells, command traits or magic items. 

They have it covered in the Designers’ Commentary
Q: Can a Hero from a Beasts of Chaos warscroll battalion that is part of a Chaos army that owes its allegiance to a Chaos God be given any spells/artefacts/etc. from that army’s set of allegiance abilities?
A: Yes, as long as no other restrictions apply

[decker_cky]

8 minutes ago, Pandamina said:

 They have it covered in the Designers’ Commentary
Q: Can a Hero from a Beasts of Chaos warscroll battalion that is part of a Chaos army that owes its allegiance to a Chaos God be given any spells/artefacts/etc. from that army’s set of allegiance abilities?
A: Yes, as long as no other restrictions apply

Every spell, artifact  and command trait has another restriction (mortal/arcanite/daemon) that means non-tzaangor shaman beasts of chaos characters do not have access. 

Nurgle  has their default spell that all nurgle wizards have access to, and slaanesh command traits and magic items are unrestricted. 

Edited October 12, 2018 by decker_cky

[Pandamina]

43 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

Every spell, artifact  and command trait has another restriction (mortal/arcanite/daemon) that means non-tzaangor shaman beasts of chaos characters do not have access. 

Completely forgot that. I guess there will be no reason to run BoC in tzeench allegiance then.

[Malakithe]

Ahh true true...looks like Tzeentch doesnt benefit at all then. No reason to take the battalion other then besides reducing drops.

[AverageBoss]

Funnily enough, under these rules you could take a BoC character, and make them your general, but you would not be able to give them a command trait. Realm artifacts are at least on the table.

BoC units should have had the Mortal keyword imo.

[Kevlar1972]

3 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Funnily enough, under these rules you could take a BoC character, and make them your general, but you would not be able to give them a command trait. Realm artifacts are at least on the table.

BoC units should have had the Mortal keyword imo.

Well you are going to be taking blood secrator and probably some other khorne characters for buffs so the general thing isn't a big deal.  There are no casters in the khorne battalion so that's a non-issue. 

It's perfectly fieldable with realm artifacts if a beast player wants to branch out.  I just don't see it adding too much to a khorne army.  The cygors could be nice against certain opponents but the battalion tax is probably too heavy to make it workable.  I don't think the mark of khorne will buff their shooting but if it can I guess you could make a half assed gunline with cygors and skull cannons.  But you could already do that with soul grinders without the battalion tax.  

[AverageBoss]

10 minutes ago, Kevlar1972 said:

Well you are going to be taking blood secrator and probably some other khorne characters for buffs so the general thing isn't a big deal.  There are no casters in the khorne battalion so that's a non-issue. 

It's perfectly fieldable with realm artifacts if a beast player wants to branch out.  I just don't see it adding too much to a khorne army.  The cygors could be nice against certain opponents but the battalion tax is probably too heavy to make it workable.  I don't think the mark of khorne will buff their shooting but if it can I guess you could make a half assed gunline with cygors and skull cannons.  But you could already do that with soul grinders without the battalion tax.  

Right, but we are talking about Tzeentch armies here . Khorne does seem like it could get some use out of some of the BoC stuff though.

[Magnus The Blue]

I think some BoC units as regular allies is the best thing about the new Beasts book (for Tzeentch armies),  Great Bray Shamans and Beast lords would be great in any force with lots of Tzaangor.   

Dragon Ogres are a greatand cheap tanky unit which we don't really have access too inside our book.  Also, can't wait to convert a Tzaan-Ghorgon with spare LoC bits.

[Barteh]

The ruling that we can in fact use the BoC batallions got me fired up enough to send an e-mail off to the rules team about their ruling on the Everchosen batallions. Fingers crossed, would be great if they were usable again in matched play.

[MitGas]

No nice tips against Nurgle for an AOS noob?  Come on, this is a matter of honor, after all we hate Nurgle! 

[kenshin620]

17 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Funnily enough, under these rules you could take a BoC character, and make them your general, but you would not be able to give them a command trait. Realm artifacts are at least on the table.

BoC units should have had the Mortal keyword imo.

I think the opposite. Yes game wise it sucks, but imo Mortal keyword means Human (for chaos faction).

While the synergies between BoC and the Gods are actually....very few (in fact when Slaanesh gets updated, I'm pretty sure Slaanesh will follow the same Keyword categories as everyone else so Mortal, Slaanesh specific Mortal, and Daemon) I think it does make some sense in the fluff. Beasts aren't exactly your typical chaos worshiper.

 

GRANTED it is also a "legacy" rule problem. They printed the God books long before BoC.

3 hours ago, Barteh said:

The ruling that we can in fact use the BoC batallions got me fired up enough to send an e-mail off to the rules team about their ruling on the Everchosen batallions. Fingers crossed, would be great if they were usable again in matched play.

BoC was an anomaly though, I think RAI they were always meant to be Marked for God armies but they forgot about their convoluted Battalion Rules. Especially since (originally) no one could actually ally into BoC and BoC can only ally Slaves to Darkness.

 

Meanwhile they specifically FAQ'd Everchosen and Nighthaunt to not work and I do not see them going back on that. Especially since the FAQs were in combination with the normal Battalion Ally rules.

So Everchosen, Slaves to Darkness, Clan Pestilens, and Nighthaunt are what normally happens with Allegiance Battalion Allies, BoC is the exception.

Edited October 13, 2018 by kenshin620

[Magnus The Blue]

So with BoC now out and are Tzaangors geting 'Brayherd' keyword, very tempted to for a Tzaangor heavy list with Brayshamman (s) and Beastlord as allies. Annoyingly you also need an Arcanite character nearby too to get the +1 to wound, but if buffed up Tzaangor units become a lightning fast blender of a unit. 

Tzaangor Shamman

2* Beastlords

2* Great Bray Shamman

3* 20 Tzaangor

6 * Enlightened on Disk

Simple tactics of rush across the board turn one and start smashing face. With 9" move and run before charge you should get at least one unit of Tzaangors and the Enlightened in combat turn one.  By turn two it should be a big bloody melee where the Beastlords command ability shines. 

The core question is do I run it as BoC or DoT. Destiny Dice are great, but are they worth giving up Ambush, Herd stone and potentially a Great Fray for?

[Rarity Nouveau]

So last year I got three of the Arcanites boxes, and three other tzaangor boxes and so far out of the 90 Tzaangors I have, I’ve  assembled 40 of them. I did both units containing max mutants, max greatblades, and one command squad each, with the remainder filled by sword and shield. So that comes out to:

8 mutants

16 savage greatblades (includes both Twistbrays)

2 banners

2 musicians

12 S&S

My question is, how do I assemble the remaining Tzaangors? A lot of the lists I’m seeing don’t have mutants on there for some reason, but from what I can tell there’s no reason not to take them. I also see that most lists run 1-2 shields in 20 blocks, so would I be severely punished for having more than that? Do I also go for the maximum banner and musicians now that we’re set to 1 per ten? And finally, what do I equip the Twistbrays with?