AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Magnus The Blue]

Yup, hoping to drop a nasty endless spell deep in the opponent territory.  Also generally give Changling an outing, I'm dubious it's worth 200 point, but want to have a try. 

[Yoshiya]

So I've been thinking of which army to start next and since I wanted to keep them in line with the fluff of my other army (to act as the rivals in that story), I've narrowed it down to Nighthaunt or Tzeentch. As such, I'd like some advice on the kind of 1000pt list I'd like to play to see if it's viable to play Tzeentch in the way I want.

The backstory is that they are from the realm of Shyish in an area near a giant forest brought to life by life magics pouring in through a realm gate. The surrounding lands were reliant on the food provided by the forest giving it immense power over them. Eventually, resentment towards them gave birth to a Arcanist Cult that revealed themselves during the Age of Chaos. Their one goal is to burn down to the forest and all those that dwell within. They thus see warpfire as the purest of Tzeentch's gifts and venorate the Tzaangors born from its mutating magics as the true children of Tzeentch.

For this reason I want to try and build the army around the Wychfire Coven battalion with a heavy amount of Arcanites with a few elite Tzaangors.

 

Heroes

Tzaangor Shaman - 180pts (General)

Ogroid Thaumaturge - 180pts (for the fire theme)

Battleline

20 Kairic Acolytes - 160pts (not sure on weapon make up)

20 Kairic Acolytes - 160pts

Units

3 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs - 160pts

 

Wychfire Coven - 120pts

40pts spare for spells

 

I feel that the list is somewhat balanced for 1000pts and the shooting should help a lot. The Ogroid will run with the Arcanites to grant them the hit bonus whilst the Shaman will work with the Enlightened as a roaming kill squad. I'm not sure on command traits/artefacts/spells but I kind of like the theming of Firestorm for the Shaman even if the spell is hard to cast.

For summing I'd like go for small Blue Horror units to match the fire theme (also I like the idea that this isn't a greatly powerful coven but rather one small fighting force so I'd like to avoid big daemons) that would work as deepstriking objective cappers but as such I'm not too worried about getting tons of spells off for summoning.

Please give me advice and or let me know how to improve the list

[Barteh]

4 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

Wychfire Coven 

Not too long ago I wanted to do something similar but in a 1250 point format, basically just switching out the Ogroid for a Lord of Change. I played against Khorne Gorepilgrims which I reckon is one of the worst things to come up against with it, but still. I felt some issues with the 20-man acolyte squads; the 3 Enlightened don't work as enough of a counter-striking force. The moment he slammed into them, albeit slightly weakened from the double missile attacks, they crumbled, doubly so from Bravery. The way I think you solve this is lowering them to 2 10 man squads and adding in a 10 man group of Tzaangors. 

As far as summoning goes- I feel Flamers are almost always the way to go for Tzeentch. Their damage output far outpaces anything else, and it's easy to apply this damage effectively (because it's ranged). If you can't make it to the fate points for a full squad, just put in an Exalted Flamer. 

I think 20 man acolyte squads are only for games big enough to let you run a Pyrofane cult (which is a great expansion point to work to for your army!).

[Heroflegend21]

Just a rulings question, with the mark of the conjurer's updated text will that stack with the LoC automatic double? And how is over seers fatetwisters looking in this edition?

[TheOtherJosh]

It is worded to stack. However, there are alternate Artefacts that might be more optimal. Mark is ‘edge case’ as it requires that the spell not be unbound. Sure .. you get two Fate points. But it won’t work all the time.

Overseers Fatetwisters is expensive. All of the LoC units are 380 each.

 

[Heroflegend21]

3 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

It is worded to stack. However, there are alternate Artefacts that might be more optimal. Mark is ‘edge case’ as it requires that the spell not be unbound. Sure .. you get two Fate points. But it won’t work all the time.

Overseers Fatetwisters is expensive. All of the LoC units are 380 each.

 

Which artefacts do you mean? 

And with Overseer's Fatetwisters it's mean to be more expensive but you get a lot of control from a very elite unit that can easily cast spells and get enough fatepoints to summon as much fodder as you need!

[PlayerOfGames]

16 hours ago, Yoshiya said:

Heroes

Tzaangor Shaman - 180pts (General)

Ogroid Thaumaturge - 180pts (for the fire theme)

Battleline

20 Kairic Acolytes - 160pts (not sure on weapon make up)

20 Kairic Acolytes - 160pts

Units

3 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs - 160pts

Wychfire Coven - 120pts

40pts spare for spells

Personally, I would not take a Battalion at 1000 points, as it eats up too much percentage of your total points. At 2000, it is much more viable.

I have some doubts about running almost only Acolytes as they are not durable, and their damage output is rather low. Against 4+ save, it takes the shooting of 8 Acolytes on average to cause a wound (with to-hit bonus). Close combat is similar.

The Enligthened are about to get a nice buff: 1 more spear attack, while points are rumored go down to 140 per 3. You could then build something like this:

Tzaangor Shaman (180)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)

10 x Tzaangors (180)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened (280)

Soulsnare Shackles (20)

If you do not have it already, consider getting the Battleforce Tzeentch Arcanites Changecult box. Apart from the Ogroid, it has all the models mentioned above (plus 10 more Tzaangors), and it is really great value.

Going to 2000, you could double the size of the Tzaangor and Acolytes units and add the Wychfire Coven, which leaves you 540 points to play with.

Equipping Kairic Acolytes: As with other units, take all the special stuff (Cursed Glaives, Scroll of Dark Arts, Vulcharc). You can also give special stuff to the Kairic Adept, and you can give more than one option to the same model (e.g., Kairic Adept with Cursed Glaive and Scroll of Dark Arts). Paired Blades vs. Blade + Shield: with the current warscroll I would prefer Blade+Shield (also looks better in my opinion :) ). Apparently, the Tzaangor Warscroll will change such that you get the shield effect as long as at least one model has a shield. If the same change happens to Acolytes in the future, some Paired Blades could be included.

 

[Yoshiya]

Thanks for the help sounds like I overestimated the acolytes even with the bonus shooting a bit.

I quite like the look of your list PlayerofGames. Keeps to the theme I wanted to go for without sacrificing power or flexibility. The fact that it's mostly in a box set only makes it better!

Regarding the loss of the battalion, what artefact would you take then? I was thinking before I could give them both something but now id be down to one it's important to make sure the choice is right.

Looking through the Tzeentch ones nothing stands out to me too much which I guess is just because of a lack of experience with the army.

[PlayerOfGames]

@ Yoshiya: For this list, I would choose:

General Trait: neither the Shaman nor the Ogroid are great wizards (and at 1000 points you will probably encounter only one or two wizards), so the magic-related stuff is less useful. The Shaman will babysit the Enlightened, while the Ogroid stays with the main force.  Hence I would make the Ogroid general and give him the Cult Demagogue trait, giving every unit near him (including himself) +2 bravery. Really useful on bravery 5 units.

Spells:  requiring a 9+ to cast (28% chance without buffs), I would only take Firestorm on a Gaunt Summoner with familiars and Arcane Sacrifice or on a Lord of Change.  For the Shaman, I would take Fold Reality... at 1000 points bringing back several Enlightened can have a huge impact. For the Ogroid, Infusion Arcanum is the go-to spell to make him really scary in combat; Shield of Fate might also be an Ok choice.

Artefacts: Either one could take the Gryph-Feather Charm for -1 to hit on all incoming attacks (melee and shooting,  -2 vs. shooting with Look Out Sir!) and +1" movement. If you really, really want to take the Firestorm spell, consider taking Souldraught for the Shaman; together with his Elixir, that gives you 2 decent chances of casting the spell (plus you can use Destiny Dice for casting, of course). The Ogroid could take Timeslip Pendant for one free melee phase or Paradoxical shield for a "sort of" 3+ save. Of course there are tons of other items in Malign Sorcery ...

PS: remember to take along some additional Tzaangors and some Brimstone horrors in case you succeed with the Shaman/Ogroid native spells!

Edited September 19, 2018 by PlayerOfGames

[Satyrical Sophist]

I really love the Ogroid, in small games I tend to use a fair few DD on him. A 6 will guarantee a successful fireblast (they can unbind, but you have an average of 9.5 on the cast), and the horrors made are useful. If you keep them in combat, they'll tend to throw out maybe one extra wound, and don't always die in one turn, and you can always run and use them to screen or just steal objectives. They are also pretty funny vs something like a ballista, since it'll usually have to waste a turns shooting.

Otherwise, I seem to find myself using 3s to guarantee horn hit and wounds. That combined with the charge mortals is surprisingly successful at murdering characters.

[FPC]

I thought if you used DD for a roll (say casting, 2d6) all dice for that roll had to be DD? Was that 1.0 or never and I’m going crazy?

Edited September 20, 2018 by FPC

[TheOtherJosh]

3 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said:

Ogroid, Infusion Arcanum is the go-to spell to make him really scary in combat; Shield of Fate might also be an Ok choice.

I’d actually recommend Treacherous Bond as an alternative.

While Infusion makes him scarier, the Bond makes him more hardy and makes him less likely to go away (at the expense of other models). It works really well with Pink or Blue Horrors as the target unit.

[Qaz]

5 hours ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

I really love the Ogroid, in small games I tend to use a fair few DD on him. A 6 will guarantee a successful fireblast (they can unbind, but you have an average of 9.5 on the cast), and the horrors made are useful.

I always wondered about that, some say use both for DD, others say I can roll one die (out of 2 for casting) then DD the other and others say I have DD before I roll any dice (even when fast dicing for shooting attacks!). 

 

[Satyrical Sophist]

6 hours ago, FPC said:

I thought if you used DD for a roll (say casting, 2d6) all dice for that roll had to be DD? Was that 1.0 or never and I’m going crazy?

Quote

Q: Can I use a single Destiny Dice for one of the dice in a 2D6 roll? For example, could I use a Destiny Dice for just one of the dice in a charge roll, or one of the dice in a casting roll, etc.? A: Yes. 

 

From the latest FAQ

Edited September 20, 2018 by Satyrical Sophist
Making it easier to read

[AaronWilson]

The change to the Tzaangor Warscroll is a big one for Tzeentch!

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 hour ago, AaronWIlson said:

The change to the Tzaangor Warscroll is a big one for Tzeentch!

Yup, that said, units of 10 get a bit of a buff which is nice. Enlightened also seem really nice now.

[AaronWilson]

Yeah I mean to be fair Tzaangor were overtuned but in Tzeentchs case one of the few shining lights left. Now I feel Enlightened without doubt the best unit in the tome. 

[Magnus The Blue]

Yup, with Skyfires and big blocks of Tzaangor nerfed, Enlightened really are the stand out unit, we have some nice Heros too but nothing crazy. 

[Heroflegend21]

How are big blocks of tzaangor nerfed? And how much is the reduction for the enlightened on foot? And how are they the best unit?

[Choombatta]

6 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

How are big blocks of tzaangor nerfed? And how much is the reduction for the enlightened on foot? And how are they the best unit?

Only +1 attack for having 9 or more models now, instead of the +1 attack per 9 models ( up to +3).

Now a flat +1 even with 30 models.

[Dmuerto]

2 minutes ago, Choombatta said:

Only +1 attack for having 9 or more models now, instead of the +1 attack per 9 models ( up to +3).

Now a flat +1 even with 30 models.

It is actually nice that 30models isn't auto include anymore.

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Dmuerto said:

It is actually nice that 30models isn't auto include anymore.

And most other Melee Tzeentch Units hit like wet noodles? ?

Suggestions?

[AverageBoss]

Thinking about giving this list a spin the next time I break out my Tzeentch stuff. I know Enlightened are probably FAR better than Skyfires at this point, but I just can't bring myself to paint 6 more disk riders after spending days on the Skyfires last year (same reason I wont be painting 5 more foot Tzaangors to replace my extra shields). So really just rolling with things at this point and playing with stuff I like.

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Ogroid Thaumaturge (180)
Gaunt Summoner and Chaos Familiars (180)
Magister (140)
Tzaangor Shaman (180)
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (160)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (80)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Mutalith Vortex Beast (200)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

 

9 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Yup, with Skyfires and big blocks of Tzaangor nerfed, Enlightened really are the stand out unit, we have some nice Heros too but nothing crazy. 

Its not a straight nerf. For 1 thing, a single shield now covers the whole unit, allowing you to go fully offensive the rest of the way. Also, the +1 attack now also applies to beaks, and not just hand weapons.

[Heroflegend21]

4 hours ago, Choombatta said:

Only +1 attack for having 9 or more models now, instead of the +1 attack per 9 models ( up to +3).

Now a flat +1 even with 30 models.

When did they change that? I just read the errata and notes. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/) and there is no indication of change. Is it with the new battletome coming out?

[Choombatta]

11 minutes ago, Heroflegend21 said:

When did they change that? I just read the errata and notes. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/) and there is no indication of change. Is it with the new battletome coming out?

Yes. The new Tzaangor warscrolls with the changes are in the new Beasts of Chaos battletome, and also already changed on the app and website to the newer version.