AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Oldshrimpeyes]

At this stage, I'm quite relieved i didn't finish painting 30 of them.

[Oldshrimpeyes]

9 hours ago, Olincay said:

Rumours that Tzaangores on foot only get a single +1 attack for being in a unit over 9.
So great blades have two attacks max, HUGE nerf is this is true. 

It's true, 

[Oldshrimpeyes]

I can't help but feel anarchy and mayhem and destined mayhem are an oversight. That's +2 to wound rolls ?

[Satyrical Sophist]

If it's actually the case that they get two bonus to wound then where does that leave us? I'm not in a position to write it all out now, I'll try when I get home. The other thing is, the beak. It's a melee weapon. So if I read this right, under the new rules 10 tzaangor would get.

2 mutants 

4 3+/2+/-/1 each

2 4+/3+/-/1 each.

3 glaivegors

2 4+/2+/-1/2 each

2 4+/2+/-/1 each

Leader with glaive

2 3+/2+/-1/2

2 3+/3+/-/1

4 regular

3 4+/2+/-/1 each

2 4+/3+/-/1 each.

 

That seems like a fair bit?

[Qaz]

At least Enlightened on foot is only 100 pts.... 

[decker_cky]

52 minutes ago, Qaz said:

At least Enlightened on foot is only 100 pts.... 

That's actually pretty significant for some of the arcanite formations. Combined with the 20 pt skyfire drop (which comes with a drop in quality), tzaangor covens cost 80 pts less and witchfyre covens cost 60 pts less. Makes it a lot more reasonable to fit some of these in.

[Sedraxis]

The lack of a describtion above anarchy and mayhem makes me extra certain it is an error. Otherwise they would've just added 2 to wound rolls to begin with.

 

Skyfires have the same issue with the +1 from the shaman on both the warscrolls.

[Satyrical Sophist]

If it isn't an error, then 10 tzaangor do almost 13 wounds Vs 4+ armour save stuff. Which seems... high. That's also assuming beaks get the buff.

[Cauthon]

The only one additional attack on unit of tzaangors no matter the size is a pretty brutal nerf but honestly it’ll make it a lot easier to make more diverse lists now as a max unit is no longer an auto include. 

 

That and the price drop and buff of the Tzaangor enlightened on foot will actually make it feasible to field a Tzaangor coven in a 2k list, 100 points for a 9 wound elite unit? Yes pls!  With the new beasts keywords and rules in addition to the power tweaks I think tzeentch lists are about to get super diverse, which is just fine by me. 

[Satyrical Sophist]

So, I got to thinking about the numbers. Did some math hammer. I know it's not everything, but handy to know how much of a hit tzaangor took. Looked at a bunch of things.  I had some assumptions. I assumed only 10 get in, which is not that realistic, but not the worst assumption. I'm assuming as well that the beak does indeed get bonus attacks under new warscroll. 

So, the new Tzaangor as a unit of 10, expect to do 10.5 wounds to a 4+, 13.1 to a 5+. 

A stacked unit of them (I assumed 7 greatblade, 2 mutant, boss great), get 12.1 and 15 to 4+ and 5+ respectively.

 

Under the old rules, the 10 man would do 9.1 and 11.5. if you follow the same stacked system, then the 20 man's 10 tzaangor would do 14.8 and 18.5.  A stacked 30 (as in the 10 best of a 30) would do 18.3 to 4+ and 23 to 5+. 

 

They took a hit, no doubt. 

 

I also took a quick look at enlightened. I may be wrong, but rumours had them at 100 for on foot, 140 on disk. 

3 on disk without rerolls do 8.9 wounds to 4+, and 11.2 to 5+. Trigger rerolls and those numbers jump to 16.6 to 4+ and 20.8 to 5+.

 

3 on foot without rerolls do 6.3 to 4+, 7.9 to 5+. With rerolls they get 11.2 and 14.2 respectively.

Looking at the disk results, I feel I must have done something wrong, and will check in the morning, but enlightened look very interesting. Particularly the foot enlightened, since the spear is 2 inch range, I'm pretty sure you could clip charge a unit with them and get rerolls pretty easily. 

 

[Qaz]

Also the tzeentch battalion does not have any keyword (Beast of Chaos) underneath/on top of it's name...

So.. ? Can I use in DoT?

[The_Yellow_Sign]

34 minutes ago, Qaz said:

Also the tzeentch battalion does not have any keyword (Beast of Chaos) underneath/on top of it's name...

So.. ? Can I use in DoT?

I believe you can; that's what Rhu (I can't remember his name) claimed in the Beasts of Chaos Twitch stream. He said that the marked battalions would not take up ally points.

[Qaz]

1 minute ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I believe you can; that's what Rhu (I can't remember his name) claimed in the Beasts of Chaos Twitch stream. He said that the marked battalions would not take up ally points.

There are difference between designer's intent/community manager's interpretation than the RAW interpretation of the wider community. 

So does not having an allegiance <keyword> near the name of battalion allows the battalion to be used by other allegiance as non-allies? Or is it still considered a BoC battalion?

[TheOtherJosh]

8 hours ago, Qaz said:

Also the tzeentch battalion does not have any keyword (Beast of Chaos) underneath/on top of it's name...

So.. ? Can I use in DoT?

Yes, but they're all counted as allies. (Until otherwise FAQ'd.)

"Q: Some warscroll battalions included in battletomes do not have a faction listed above their title. How do I determine which faction they belong to for the purposes of allegiance abilities?
A: The battalion belongs to the battletome’s faction.
For example, the warscroll battalions in Battletome: Stormcast Eternals are part of the Stormcast Eternals faction." From Core rules Designers commentary p.7

 

Edited September 16, 2018 by TheOtherJosh

[Satyrical Sophist]

More math nerding. I posted this in Beasts of Chaos as well, but interested to get some feedback. 

Quote

Do people have a list of points changes? I'm trying to work out just how much bang for your buck (Your point buck I guess) you get.

What I've currently heard is that Tzaangor enlightened on foot are 100, Bestigor are 120, and disk enlightened are 140 (The last one I've not seen mentioned much, think it might be some confusion with Skyfires, which are dropping 20 points).

In any case, assuming the bestigor numbers are right, then 10 bestigor charging 4+ armour save enemies will do an expected 6.9 wounds to a small unit, and 9.2 wounds to a big  unit. If that unit has 5+ saves, it'd be 8.6 for a small unit, or 11.5 for a big one. So doing a fairly reasonable chunk of damage. 

Whats kind of interesting is that Tzaangor are actually not that outclassed on the charge. Tzaangor'll do more damage, but obviously cost more. If you look at the number of wounds caused per 100 points of unit then you get a fairly balanced result. On the charge, vs a large units, Bestigor out perform Tzaangor (7.7 to 5.8). They are roughly equivalent charging small units (5.7 for BG, 5.8 for TG), and drop off rapidly in following turns (Down to 5.2 for big units and 3.9 for small units).

Enlightened end up kind of brutal, leaving aside the disks, foot enlightened end up being a bit more efficient overall than regular Tzaangor (6.3 wounds per 100 points), but if you ever get to trigger their guided by the past ability their damage output leaps to 11.3, which is almost 50% more than bestigors charging, and almost twice the damage at charging small units. 

I'm also pretty interested in knowing about various synergies you can get, like that Gavespawn ability, and whether the wording will boost ALL melee profiles, as well as any other buffs that can be given out. I assumed that you had the Tzaangor shaman present for the enlightened, which might be a bit unfair, but I love that bird goat.

I've got to say, Enlightened with an extra attack seem brutal.  They are surprisingly comparable to old Tzaangor. A unit of 30 Tzaangor, somehow managing to get every tzaangor into base to base would do 45 wounds to 4+ enemies.  Thats the same number of points as 3 squads of disk tzaangor. Assuming you have to attack first with one squad, then the other two get the bonus? Thats an expected 42 wounds to 4+ enemies. If you manage to get the bonus with all of them, its 50 wounds. That seems really high. Yes you can lose some enlightened to attacks back, but getting 30 tzaangor into combat seems just as likely to result in problems.

[lord_blackfang]

In case this hasn't been found yet, the updated Tzaangor warscroll has been hiding under the 40k box version (the one with chainswords and autopistols)

 

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_AoS_BeastsOfChaos_Tzaangors.pdf

 

Note that units of 9-17 actually got buffed as the blob bonus now adds +1 attack to their beaks too, when it only affected held weapons before.

[FPC]

How about 3x10 tzaangors, screen of 2-3 units of pinks, some wizards behind all within 9” of each other?  Now each unit of tzaangors is slinging MW that hit on 4+ out to 18”.  Say 2 units of pinks, a tzaangor shaman, orgoid, gaunt summoner. That’s 5 tries per unit average 7.5 MW. Throw in some enlightened or whatever to taste. Could be interesting.

If only they came in units of 5.

[Magnus The Blue]

I've just noticed another minor buff for Tzaangors, Shields work for all wounds on the unit as long as you have at least one Shield (so don't have to be assigned to the shield bearer), so one shield is enough and everyone else might as well have paired blades.

Spoiler

8 hours ago, FPC said:

How about 3x10 tzaangors, screen of 2-3 units of pinks, some wizards behind all within 9” of each other?  Now each unit of tzaangors is slinging MW that hit on 4+ out to 18”.  Say 2 units of pinks, a tzaangor shaman, orgoid, gaunt summoner. That’s 5 tries per unit average 7.5 MW. Throw in some enlightened or whatever to taste. Could be interesting.

If only they came in units of 5.

 

Absolutely, I think lots of min Tzaangors with all the casters that have spells that produce free models will be very competitive:  Orgoid, Mangister, Shaman, Fateweaver, and blue scribes for rerolls to cast, maybe changing if your feeling tricksy. Round off with Pinks and endless spells to taste. Tonnes of mortal wounds, healthy combat threat and up to 4 free annoyance units a turn. Would not be fun to face.

On a less competitive note, I'm looking at fun build for a game this week:

Guant summoner with familiars: General with arcane sacrifice.

Lord of Change with Gryph-feather charm

Herald of Tzeetch

The Blue Scribes

The Changling

2 * 10 Pink Horrors

10 Tzaangors

2* 10 Brimestone Horrors

Malign Sorcery up the wazzoo: Pendulum, Balewind Vortex, Chromatic Cogs, Geminids, Gnashing Jaws and Shackles

Hoping to clog up the mid field with endless spells and pink horrors (who I don't mind taking some mortal wounds) while the characters blast mortal wounds like it's no tomorrow.  Vortex (probably for the Herald) and Sacrafice very important to make sure I can get spells across the storm of spells that the middle of the table will hopefully be. Brimstones obviously there to screen and Changling hoping to get a nasty Pendulum across enemy lines.

Is this complete madness or will I just get wiped off the board (mostly by my own spells)?

Edited September 17, 2018 by Magnus The Blue

[FPC]

2 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I've just noticed another minor buff for Tzaangors, Shields work for all wounds on the unit as long as you have at least one Shield (so don't have to be assigned to the shield bearer), so one shield is enough and everyone else might as well have paired blades.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Absolutely, I think lots of min Tzaangors with all the casters that have spells that produce free models will be very competitive:  Orgoid, Mangister, Shaman, Fateweaver, and blue scribes for rerolls to cast, maybe changing if your feeling tricksy. Round off with Pinks and endless spells to taste. Tonnes of mortal wounds, healthy combat threat and up to 4 free annoyance units a turn. Would not be fun to face.

On a less competitive note, I'm looking at fun build for a game this week:

Guant summoner with familiars: General with arcane sacrifice.

Lord of Change with Gryph-feather charm

Herald of Tzeetch

The Blue Scribes

The Changling

2 * 10 Pink Horrors

10 Tzaangors

2* 10 Brimestone Horrors

Malign Sorcery up the wazzoo: Pendulum, Balewind Vortex, Chromatic Cogs, Geminids, Gnashing Jaws and Shackles

Hoping to clog up the mid field with endless spells and pink horrors (who I don't mind taking some mortal wounds) while the characters blast mortal wounds like it's no tomorrow.  Vortex (probably for the Herald) and Sacrafice very important to make sure I can get spells across the storm of spells that the middle of the table will hopefully be. Brimstones obviously there to screen and Changling hoping to get a nasty Pendulum across enemy lines.

Is this complete madness or will I just get wiped off the board (mostly by my own spells)?

Try to fit a mortal wizard for fold reality?  Or put it on the gaunt summoner bc his own spell is plenty of offense.  Always great to see a suicidal 4 pink horrors turn back into 10!

Overall looks like fun and crazy.  Could end up getting yourself wiped but hey that's what you risk playing Tzeentch!

[Magnus The Blue]

Fold reality is a demon spell

[FPC]

Ohh.  Yea oops....I was thinking it was mortal bc I usually give it to my Tzaangor shaman and always forget he's demon too.  Duh.

Edited September 17, 2018 by FPC

[AverageBoss]

GS is still viable as well as he is a Daemon too.

[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I've just noticed another minor buff for Tzaangors, Shields work for all wounds on the unit as long as you have at least one Shield (so don't have to be assigned to the shield bearer), so one shield is enough and everyone else might as well have paired blades.

Too bad half my Tzaangors have shields. I would have to buy, build, and paint a whole other box to replace the extras. That or start chopping.

[PlayerOfGames]

8 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

I've just noticed another minor buff for Tzaangors, Shields work for all wounds on the unit as long as you have at least one Shield (so don't have to be assigned to the shield bearer), so one shield is enough and everyone else might as well have paired blades.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Absolutely, I think lots of min Tzaangors with all the casters that have spells that produce free models will be very competitive:  Orgoid, Mangister, Shaman, Fateweaver, and blue scribes for rerolls to cast, maybe changing if your feeling tricksy. Round off with Pinks and endless spells to taste. Tonnes of mortal wounds, healthy combat threat and up to 4 free annoyance units a turn. Would not be fun to face.

On a less competitive note, I'm looking at fun build for a game this week:

Guant summoner with familiars: General with arcane sacrifice. 

Lord of Change with Gryph-feather charm

Herald of Tzeetch

The Blue Scribes

The Changling

2 * 10 Pink Horrors

10 Tzaangors

2* 10 Brimestone Horrors

Malign Sorcery up the wazzoo: Pendulum, Balewind Vortex, Chromatic Cogs, Geminids, Gnashing Jaws and Shackles

Hoping to clog up the mid field with endless spells and pink horrors (who I don't mind taking some mortal wounds) while the characters blast mortal wounds like it's no tomorrow.  Vortex (probably for the Herald) and Sacrafice very important to make sure I can get spells across the storm of spells that the middle of the table will hopefully be. Brimstones obviously there to screen and Changling hoping to get a nasty Pendulum across enemy lines.

Is this complete madness or will I just get wiped off the board (mostly by my own spells)?

Why the Changeling? If you take a Magister instead, you can upgrade the Brimstones to Blue Horrors.

As the Magister creates Chaos Spawns and the Blues generate Brimstones, this would add some resilience to your list ...

[Dmuerto]

40 minutes ago, PlayerOfGames said:

Why the Changeling? If you take a Magister instead, you can upgrade the Brimstones to Blue Horrors.

As the Magister creates Chaos Spawns and the Blues generate Brimstones, this would add some resilience to your list ...

 

I think the point of the Changeling is to cast the Pendulum or Jaws from the opponents territory in order to maximize damage? 

 

Or just simply hand of dust nagash?