AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Jaskier]

2 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

So for those who actively play at the moment. How many Bounty Hunters battalions have you seen walking around in lists? We cannot really avoid being veterans. Well except maybe if burning chariots are battleline but that was never a viable option was it now.

Most lists I'm seeing either go straight 1-drop with just a Battle Regiment or they mix Bounty Hunters in with either a BR or some other battalions. I think you'll have to plan for it either way as the Battleline we want to be using are all Galletian Veterans by default. Playing against a mate's Gitz the other day, 10 Boingrots with a supporting Sloggoth and All Out Attack (to negate our -1 to-hit Locus) and bonus attacks from Sneaky Snufflers (so six Damage 2 attacks per model) managed to chew through most of a 10 Pink Horror unit in one go (they got down to about half Brimstones/half Blues) and obviously there are many other Bounty Hunter units in the game that can hit harder than those, so it is potentially a concern. However, Horrors in Expert Conquerors are straight up just absurd so it probably evens out. 

I should also note regarding that game that when his other Boingrot unit charged another Horror unit that had re-roll saves (Shield of Fate) and Mystic Shield (to negate his Rend) they completely whiffed even with buffs and got mulched by the return attacks so you can at least do things to mitigate the weakness. 

Side-note, having seen how Sylvaneth and other 3.0 tomes handle subfactions, I'm curious to see if the new Tzeentch book will still let me keep the combo of no-retreat and the bubbled re-roll casting/unbinding that Hosts Duplicitous offers. As cool as I find the other subfactions, that combination for HD with my predominantly demonic collection is just too good to pass on. I know I can fork out for Cogs but paying to lose out on re-rolling unbinds bites. I'm also really curious to see how they handle the Lord of Change and Fateweaver; they do feel stronger than ever thanks to how they dominate spells/endless spells in a season that seems to favor that more than it has in a long time, but the update that the Great Unclean Ones and Rotigus got in the Maggotkin book seems like an indicator GW wants to raise the power bar for greater daemons. Like, surely the Great Unclean One won't be the sole greater daemon in that ~500ish bracket? I just wonder how you would even go about powering up the Lord of Change beyond what it already does short of just stat boosts. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Jaskier

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Jaskier I would be afraid of loosing our guild of summoners subfaction. If they really push the power of lords of change. It was never great right but I loved the thought behind it. Plus converting Lords of Change was quite the enjoyable hobby project. And i do not inted on letting them gather dust.

Though I am really praying for new tzeentch mortals. Give me those tzeentch chaos warriors. We cannot really use slaves to darkness anymore. And even slaanesh was given their twinsouls and whstever the other version is called. Now only tzeentch is missing its chaos warrior variation! I am praying for that expanded mortal range. 

Edited July 19, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Ganigumo]

I haven't gotten any games in with Tzeentch, but I think expert conqueror's screamers in host arcanum could be pretty good. They don't dominate objectives like some EC horrors would, but they're cheap and very fast, so they threaten objectives easily, and the bounty hunter damage doesn't really matter on them since they're throwaway units anyways.
Then there's blue & brimstone horrors as good non GV chaff.
You don't want to ignore GVs entirely, because you need them to score some BT and contest the proving ground, but bounty hunters seem common enough that you don't want GV anvils unless they're insanely durable or can mitigate the BH effect.
You could maybe get away with flamer GV as well, as long as you can keep them protected.

[Duke of Mousillon]

I dont think flamers would be a good GV. But the Screamer argument sounds very reasonable. A shame they cannot be battleline ouside of that one subfaction. Probably better that way though.

 

I am afraid Tzaangors would completely fall away because of the potential Hunters battalions. Not that tzaangors were great before but now even their 2 wounds wont safe them for a pure melee unit. Are their any tzaangor players who had got some experience in with tzaangors in the new enviroment?

[Ganigumo]

Flamers actually make pretty decent GVs. They were already made of paper, so bounty hunters doesn't really affect them at all, they're ranged so they can score the BT for killing a GV with a GV, and 9" flying move isn't slow by any means.
I'm not sure if Flamers themselves are worth taking at their current points, but shooting units make good GVs in general.

My on paper assessment of Tzaangors is that they're a glass cannon now. They have insane output, even without BH, but they'll explode if any BH touch them, and they're not particularly mobile, although with a great bray shaman you could get them up to 9" move with run and charge. Haven't gotten a chance to break mine out yet.

Also Kairics might be an interesting cheese pick for EC. Since the whole unit is a wizard you could use Lauchon to warp them around the board, although you'd need another wizard to summon it. I'm not sure how many you could fit wholly within 3" though, possibly 20.

[Duke of Mousillon]

6 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Also Kairics might be an interesting cheese pick for EC. Since the whole unit is a wizard you could use Lauchon to warp them around the board, although you'd need another wizard to summon it. I'm not sure how many you could fit wholly within 3" though, possibly 20.

This I would even try. But only because the endless spell dropped to like 30 points if i remember correct and if I could make up my mind on a proper Acolyte conversion. Tzeentch knows I hate the acolyte models. 

[Duke of Mousillon]

With them announcing the battle box for preorder next week today. How long you reckon until the battle tome comes? A month? Or do we no get a battletome after the box?

[Inferno]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:43 PM, Duke of Mousillon said:

With them announcing the battle box for preorder next week today. How long you reckon until the battle tome comes? A month? Or do we no get a battletome after the box?

9th of September release 

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Inferno are releases not scheduled for Saturdays usually? 

[Ganigumo]

20 minutes ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@Inferno are releases not scheduled for Saturdays usually? 

Yeah but september 9th is 9/9. hopefully they make an exception 😉

[Inferno]

17 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Yeah but september 9th is 9/9. hopefully they make an exception 😉

Well that will be 10th of 9thm but stock arrives to shop 9/9

[Bayul]

Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch on Disk from Total War: Warhammer 3  

 

[Duke of Mousillon]

You heard the news? Ill list the changes on the battle scrolls here as far as I could find them online today (source AoS Coach):

Curseling:

3+ safe now. Better melee. Got a ranged attack. 

Only a level 1 caster now base but got the ability to at the start of your hero face pick an enemy wizards within 18'' roll a dice on a 4+ the wizard can cast one less spell in the enemys next hero phase and this hero phase the curseling can cast pne more spell.

You can still reroll unbinding and dispelling rolls but lost all the enemy spell shenanigans you had before.

His warscroll spell now gives a friendly Arcanite unit within 9'' a 6+ ward.

Kairic Acolytes:

No longer wizards. Now only a 6+ safe. Rerolls on pair of blades turned into an extra attack. Sorcerous bolt now have -1 rend from the scroll bearer.

Tzasngor enlightened on disc:

Save up to a 4+. Vicious Beaks now 2 attagks an 3+ to wound.

Guided by the past rerolls turned into +1 to wound in melee if you are the 2nd player in a battle round.

Babbling stream of secrets now makes it so enemy units within 3'x cannot recieve command abilities during the combat phase.

Tzaangors:

Champion now has +1 attack instead.

Every profile now wounds on 3+.

Savagery unleashed is removed. No bonus attacks anymore. Apparently also the weapon option of paired savage blades is gone? 

The totem effect was changed a little but still does the same thing with mortal wounds for wizards nearby. Now only in combat phase but does a little more dmg i suppose.

Destiny Mayhem now gives the +1 to wound on charge instead of the closeby heroe.

Edit: Point changes

Curseling: 175 went down 5

Acolytes: 120 stayed

Enlightened: 215 went up 35

Tzaangors: 200 went up 25

Edited August 20, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Duke of Mousillon]

Oppinion. I always hated the Kairic Acolyte model. Their rules were always "it is the cheapest battleline and can cast a spell". Now they have no spell. At least i do no need to think about alternative models and conversions anymore.

Curseling is. Different? I liked the spell shenanigans. It was something really unique. So now he buffs... enlightened and skyfires? Because your other arcanite unit has already a 6+ ward? I guess you can give the ward to himself or another arcanite heroe. Not sure about the 4+ to maybe steal a spellcast. i suppose it can be  strong if it works.

Both tzaangor units got better in melee now? Both saw a points increase for it. But go go tzaangors i guess. 

Ofcourse this can all change with the new books rules. Except the Acolytes. You are probably still at best "the cheapest battleline".

[Ganigumo]

I just saw an upload of the tzaangor and enlightened warscrolls.

Tzaangor went up in points and also got worse lol. (Math done with +1 to wound)

 

 

Enlightened are slightly better I think. The old ability was a struggle to trigger and they get an extra beak attack, plus their save went up. 

 

Havent seen kairics yet but it sounds like they're also getting worse but only dropping 5 points, which still makes them too expensive for what they do.

Guess we'll need to wait to see what the rest of the book looks like

[Duke of Mousillon]

Did some math out of curiosity with the Curseling loosing his second unbind each round which was rerollable. 

He now has a 50% chance of denying an enemy wizards one spell cast during the next hero phase within 18''. In the past he had a second unbind that was rerrolable. This unbind basically had a 50%+ chance on succeding on any spell cast of 8 or lower. Went down to a 30% chance of unbinding a spell cast of 9 and even worse for 10-11. 12 being impossible. Generally speaking with his reroll he unbound 60,54%of enemy spell casts but this includes unbinding useless casting roles of like a 2 or 3 but those casting roles are also really rare. The potential unbinds on a casting role of 2 just amounts for 2,77% of that number for example. 

So against wizards with bonuses to cast its a buff. But at the same time he moves 5 inches. Staying out of 18'' compared to the 30'' unbind range is a difference. Also he needs this to get his second spell for himself each turn that he lost which now becomes lost forever when there are no wizards in range. And depending on the match up and meta. Yes it can be good to flat out deny a potential cast when his coin flip works but. This potential cast could be an arcane bolt or a mythic shield. No saying those spells are not worth denying ever but this might just make your enemy not cast his worst spell next round. Compared to that the second unbind he had before that you could use on the spell the enemy got through that actually was important. Though I do think it is charming to think of a level 1 caster turned into a 0 caster.

Then again our Chickens are still unbinding spells with their dice cheating, so does it matter that he might be worse at denying spells? Probably not. More bummed out about him loosing a reliable second cast with kairic acolytes also loosing their cast.

But yeah pros and cons i suppose. Think it is more cons but who knows what the tome brings.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Grimrock]

Oof, yeah that looks like a sizeable nerf to the non-daemon side of the book. Which is super weird because it hasn't been a problem since the first book so I don't know why they're so intent on continually grinding it into the mud. I assume that they want to keep tzeentch as the ranged/magic faction with little to no melee, but if that's the case then why in the world did they make the melee models in the first place? 

Still just part of the picture though, so we'll see how it goes with the book. We could get a cheap and easy spell for +1 hit and +1 attack or something and it'd flip all the math on it's head. As is I'm glad I yet again held off and didn't buy into Arcane Cataclysm. I've wanted those Tzaangors for ages but I focused on the daemons first and by the time I was done with them the birds had already been nerfed into the ground. Now I'm just waiting for them to actually be playable before I pull the trigger.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Grimrock

[EntMan]

Hello Fans of Change. I have got some bits and greenstuff and hoping to kitbash a Tzaangor into a Shaman on (home made) Disc.

Please could someone let me know roughly what the distance is in mm between the bottom of the disc and the base for Tzeentch disc mounted models? 

Thanks.

[RUNCMD]

Mixed feelings about some of the changes we have seen already to the scrolls. @Grimrock agreed that the change to Kairics no longer being Wizards is weird and they have never been a problem. Happy they get the +1 rend now with the scroll, but I'm really starting to question some of the choices they are making with Tzeentch mortals overall, in terms of their viability. Don't get me wrong I think they will still have a great spot in lists, just hoping they don;t lean far towards one side than the other. I guess we need the full Tome before making any final judgements. 

Was keen on the box, but now I think if anything I'll just get the Curseling separately and wait for the new tome. Excited to see what they bring in/change, always makes for different lists etc, just hope there's balance across both Mortals and Daemons. 

I think early to mid Sept for the new tome as well?

Edited August 22, 2022 by RUNCMD
Added bit in about tome.

[Duke of Mousillon]

9 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Kairics no longer being Wizards is weird

Yeah. I did quite enjoy them being able to cast a spell. Right it was not game breaking or anything but it was like "yeah. These are real cultists of the Raven. They do wizard ******.".  First horrors lost their ability to cast. Which to be fair. Horrors were and are still our best battleline though mightily expensive but was them being able to cast a spell the issue? Idk about that. Now the acolytes lost their spellcasting. And then putting us up in the battlebox against bloody high elves with their casting battlelines just adds insult to injury. And yes a more internally balanced book would be much appreciated. 

On 8/20/2022 at 4:07 PM, Grimrock said:

I assume that they want to keep tzeentch as the ranged/magic

Though the battlebox does imply tzeentch mortals being the melee army. Putting us up against wizards and archers. Taking the spellcasts from acolytes and from the curseling. Curseling turning into a shorter range support character. They will not turn tzeentch into a melee faction. Definetly not. But this is how they portray the mortal side right now at least to me. Which is correct. The tzaangors have always been melee centric. Never too viable. But they were always about melee . Maybe this time around in the codex there will be a properly dedicated melee cult for tzaangors. Or at least. A tzaancor cult thats not worse then the generic cults for tzaangors. Though I would very much like them buffing the melee capabilites of Screamers too. Would not mind using Screamers more often. 

After all our power rn is in the demon heroes. Im excited to see what they have in store for those and am curious about our summoning mechanic since we apparently are losing spellcasts per turn in the mortal portion. Still praying for those new mortal models. If not ill just have to look into STD Tzeentch and do conversions there I guess.

 

[Koala]

I am okay with Kairics loosing their spell. While it was fluffy it also was a lot of unneccessary dice rolling. They are already a ranged Battleline ( so potentially lots of them and active in two phases), it is okay if they skip a phase

New Enlightened read boring. I sure hope they do not end up playing that way.

What i really want to see is is the secret agenda mechanic either removed or severely changed and covens fixed so they no longer just buff a certain unit type - or also removed but who am i kidding, rules bloat is inevitable.

 

[Ganigumo]

In my opinion secret agendas is a much better Tzeentch mechanic than anything else in the book, it could maybe use a bit of streamlining, but it feels Tzeentch-ier than even destiny dice. I know Tzeentch likes to twist and control fate, but he's also incredibly fickle, and loves scheming, which fits secret agendas better than the incredible precision given by destiny dice.

The big loss from kairics (and horrors) losing spells it that it will make fate point generation tougher.

[RUNCMD]

18 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Yeah. I did quite enjoy them being able to cast a spell. Right it was not game breaking or anything but it was like "yeah. These are real cultists of the Raven. They do wizard ******.". 

Totally this hey. Loved them being another caster and the fluff about it, although sucked when I didn't get their spell off LOL. Agreed with the comment that it will mean less dice rolling - @Koala - and it just happens now, I haven't seen point so hopefully they went down? Still salty that all our battleline are losing theirs spells because  @Ganigumo has a point about losing Fate points with both battleline now being stripped of spells. I guess we generate them off other spells as well but man, I don't want to let spells through in the way the game seems to be going with a magic focus. 

I agree the secret agendas need a bit more streamlining. I love some of the other abilities but the one used mostly for Horrors where each models counts as two might be a bit overshadowed with the new Battalion where each models counts as 3? Idk. See how we go. I def love the Secret Agendas, they were fun! Just need a bit of streamlining. 

Won't know much more until the Tome is out, shouldn't be long now I'd say. I've already seen some leaks for Lumineth, so who knows maybe we will have it before GW even announce it LOL. 

I think I also want to see a re-write of the Endless Spells. Some were okay, but I never felt the real urge to take them. Maybe they get a decent boost

[RUNCMD]

On 8/22/2022 at 4:03 AM, EntMan said:

Hello Fans of Change. I have got some bits and greenstuff and hoping to kitbash a Tzaangor into a Shaman on (home made) Disc.

Please could someone let me know roughly what the distance is in mm between the bottom of the disc and the base for Tzeentch disc mounted models? 

Thanks.

No idea sorry mate, I'd say close to 3/4 the size of the base? Judging by the eye?

[Duke of Mousillon]

@RUNCMD I posted the new points costs as far as AoS Coach spoiled them from the battlebox. Scroll up. They stayed at 120. Theoretically they could change again with the new tome. Not sure how likely that is.

Yeah I would like endless spell rules to get looked into again. I would love to use the flying book with the eyes but it is so important that I did not even bother to look up its name.

 

Edit: Phrasing.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon