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AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion


Gaz Taylor
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I have run Bel'Akor in a few games - he is a good melee threat and his un-rendable save is nice to have.  I would not send him off on his own unless it was part of a broader plan - For example I was able to use him as bait one game to pull the opponent off of an objected in Scorched Earth - then I advanced onto it and burned it with Fanged Circlet Screamers.

I paired him with the Lifeswarm to provide extra healing each turn and give him another spell to cast outside of Bolt/Shield. IIRC he does not benefit from the Scribes ability (not a Tzeentch wizard), so his casting is less than optimal.

His Dark Master ability is very good, especially if you setup a scenario where you are good to give up the double and he can neutralize a high value target for 40% of the game (2 turns of 5). I usually kept him in back of screens, ready to pounce on something that comes close.

I tried out the Curseling last week and I was unimpressed overall with the results. He has 2 casts, but I felt like he was struggling to get quality casts. Kairos almost always needed to steal his spell for his 3rd cast, and the Changecaster going into multi-cast mode would chew up all the endless spells, arcane bolt, mystic shield options. This left him with Glean Magic - admittedly I was playing a very magic weak army, so he probably performs much better grabbing that comets call and throwing it back at Seraphon.

I ran 2 units of Pinks the last two times I played - even with the increased costs. Kairics simply rollover in a stiff breeze, but are good for a cast and to sit back on an objective. Horrors with their -1 to hit near a hero, battleshock immunity for the first 30, shooting attack, and 40 wounds are a nice buffer against monsters. You can also cheat with coherency for them - if you put two Horrors at the end of the line, you can string them along single file to provide a broader front since each one that dies generates another 2 models for keeping coherency. It isn't until you get to brimestones that you need to start being careful about placement.

Overall I think you can play with Kairics but there is less margin for error - I am not a good enough player to make it work with only 1 Horrors unit, I need the extra layers of screens that it provides casters.

Another argument for more horrors is that Kragnos is a real problem for Tzeentch armies - Belakor cannot smash him down in a turn so you really need to pin him down with Horrors and then kill the rest of the army. My last game was against Gitz (bear with me) running Kragnos and Trolls with a 4+ ignore spells Command Ability. I had two turns of hot dice where I could not get anything through but was able to layer 2 or 3 units of Blues summoned and the Pinks to keep everything at bay.

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On 1/3/2022 at 4:55 AM, Duke of Mousillon said:

I have not gotten to play third edition yet either so keep that in mind. I will just give you my thoughts as I read rules @MattyP

What I see is Acolytes being the cheapest generic battleline we have. At 115 they are 10 wound with eh defensive stats but they cast a spell and have some ranged chip damage. If they get into melee they probabaly fall over against any melee unit if you dont bring 30 of them and even then you better have them battleshock immune when they are done in melee. Are they worse then Pink Horrors? Yes I think so, even at 30 for 345 points they have 20 wounds less then 10 pinks at 250, but at almost half the points cost I think Kairic Acolytes are not to be forgotten. They essentially do the same thing pinks do but are a WAY worse tar pit. Horrors also just cast one spell and do chip damage otherwise. 

I am conflicted on Tzaangors. I want to like them but I just can not. The good. No ranged chip damage. No spell. Furthermore. They seem to fall over quite quickly too and with the bonus of an extra attack falling away at already 8 models, On a sidenote: then you are looking at a battleline and a hero who will not cast spells for your fate points, may or may not matter depending on the rest of your list and the circumstances. If you plan on getting them up as fast as possible, which seems to be a not unwise decision, consider a Great-Brayshaman for bonus movement.

Again. Just thoughts when reading through the rules. My opinion is as good as yours here.

A few comments here.  I am a big fan of Acolytes, but they really need to be units of 20.  Otherwise it just takes just two stray shots to deprive them of their spell, which reduces your fate points and makes their damage sadder still. At 4+ (3+ with pyrofane or all out attack)/3+ -1 rend, they are the best shooting we have now that Pink Horrors have lost all of their innate accuracy buffs.  They also lost their spell, by the way, so I am not sure what you mean unless you're referring to the fate point on 3+ banner they have now.  Tzaangors actually have quite nice chip damage since you'll have several wizards around to buff their mortal wound attack. Having 6 wizards around is not unusual, so that's 3 mortal wounds on average to a target within 18".

By the way, Great Bray-shaman does generate fate points, he just can't use destiny dice.

On 1/2/2022 at 3:43 PM, MattyP said:

Why are thoughts on using Tzaangor and acolytes, going for more of a mortal army. Recent 1k list I took was

magister on disc 

Ogroid

tzaangor shaman

10 acolytes

10 acolytes 

10 tzaangors

3 screamers 

pyrofane cult coven 

didn’t want to take pinks or LoC since it was 1k but didn’t have much of any success with the list against kruelboyz. It’s only my second 3.0 game and I’m still trying to get used to the changes and other new things 

I am currently entertaining the cheaper Tzaangor, but they really need their extra attack to really be worthwhile in melee. I just made a Cult of Transient Form list I am going to give a try.

Battle Regimen and Warlord battalions for 5 drops, an extra artifact, and extra command point once per game.

Curseling - General, Bolt of Change

Ogroid Thaumaturge - Arcane Tome, Infusion Arcanum

Tzaangor Shaman - Chaotica Amulet, Glimpse the Future

Be'lakor

Great Bray-shaman - Levitate

20x Kairic Acolytes

10x Tzaangors

10x Tzaangors

6x Tzaangor Enlightened

3x Tzaangor Skyfires (most questionable choice, honestly)

Endless Spell: Soulscream Bridge

The acolytes take point as a screen with Fate of Transmutation command to shore up Tzaangor numbers. Levitate and Soulscream Bridge are two (admittedly long) shots at moving a Tzaangor or Enlightened unit over the screen/opponent front lines to get at juicy targets.  Tzaangors especially like levitate since with the Bray-shaman they can run 9+D6" inches and charge, while anyone using the Bridge will use the +1 attack agenda and destiny dice to nail the 9" charge.

Magic is a little unreliable and the Skyfires are probably dead weight until they get a point discount. Blue Scribes + more endless spells/a unit of Chaos Warhounds for more chaff may be the better option here.

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13 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I see. Yeah Be'Lakor seems nice in theory to me at least. Sadly the newest update removed allegiance abilities from our coalition units so he can not use destiny dice anymore or complete agendas can he?

He never could, since he does not have a blank Mark of Chaos that would give him the Tzeentch keyword. He is strictly an ally.

Also the only allegiance abilities coalition units lost were Masters of Destiny (destiny dice) and the Change Covens. They can still summon units, fulfill agendas and any daemons would benefit from Locus of Change.

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I completely ignored the fact that their new warscroll has no spell anymore. Thats a bummer is it. Thanks for pointing that out.

6 hours ago, TerminusRex said:

By the way, Great Bray-shaman does generate fate points, he just can't use destiny dice.

Was talking about the Fatemaster. Fatemaster being the potential supporting hero to give them buffs if youd like normal tzaangors to be your melee threat.

6 hours ago, TerminusRex said:

6x Tzaangor Enlightened

Why not Enlightened on Disc? I was never intrigued by the non-disc variant.

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6 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

I completely ignored the fact that their new warscroll has no spell anymore. Thats a bummer is it. Thanks for pointing that out.

Was talking about the Fatemaster. Fatemaster being the potential supporting hero to give them buffs if youd like normal tzaangors to be your melee threat.

Why not Enlightened on Disc? I was never intrigued by the non-disc variant.

Ah sure enough. I've tried in the past giving the Fatemaster the Arcane Tome to get another caster, but it just makes him too juicy of a target (and he looks cool AF which already makes him a target).

 

Enlightened on Disk are a consideration (and will be the next thing I try if the Skyfires are as disappointing as expected).

The guys on foot are 6 models for 10 points less than 3 on the disks, hence their inclusion. With a 9" move, Levitate, and Bridge in the list, hopefully they can be delivered where they need to go for the one combat phase they will survive.

Both Skyfires and Enlightened on Disks really need like at least a 20 point reduction like the rest of the goats got in the Winter FAQ.  Or give them the Daemon keyword back so we can use Fold Reality on them.

Edited by TerminusRex
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Hi team, hoping to get your thoughts on these two lists. I genuinely can’t decide which one would be better and am about to play a couple games over the weekend. The main match up will be against a 1 drop Glottkin Nurgle army…
 

Your thoughts would be appreciated!!

 

LIST 1

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (135)
Kairos Fateweaver (435)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
The Blue Scribes (135)
Be'Lakor, the Dark Master (360)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (250)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (250)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (115)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulsnare Shackles (65)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 76
Drops: 8
 

LIST 2

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Kairos Fateweaver (435)
Lord of Change (420)
The Blue Scribes (135)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)

Battleline
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (500)
- Reinforced x 1
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulscream Bridge (70)

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 79
Drops: 7
 

Edited by Icetea
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@Icetea your first list is essentially my list from the previous page of this thread. I like it. You just switched out my Curseling for an Ogroid. I like the idea of the list otherwise I would not have proposed the same one the other day myself. I see why you wanna run an Ogroid having his spell available for Kairos seems really good. If Nurgle is your biggest threat then potentialy nice targets for the Curselings spell could be Festus or Bloab and he would be a perfect safety valve to unbind the Glottkins +1 wounds spell in case you are afraid of needing to chew through too many bodies? But I do not think he is necessary for just fighting Nurgle alone. The Ogroid should be nice at keeping your Kairos toped off from Nurgles chip damage.

In the second list I like throwing Pinks through a bridge. Also I am not sure about a 20 man unit. Maybe that is too much overkill. Though if Nurgle is your archenemy. Maybe try to squeeze in those Soulsnare Shackles here too? It just seems great to make the people who have 4 inch move on most units not be able to run or charge. Also Glottkin should have this new ability that lets him and another unit charge out of sequence? I am not sure about the wording on both of these effects but if it stops his out of sequence charging that should be a huge pain.

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6 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

@Icetea your first list is essentially my list from the previous page of this thread. I like it. You just switched out my Curseling for an Ogroid. I like the idea of the list otherwise I would not have proposed the same one the other day myself. I see why you wanna run an Ogroid having his spell available for Kairos seems really good. If Nurgle is your biggest threat then potentialy nice targets for the Curselings spell could be Festus or Bloab and he would be a perfect safety valve to unbind the Glottkins +1 wounds spell in case you are afraid of needing to chew through too many bodies? But I do not think he is necessary for just fighting Nurgle alone. The Ogroid should be nice at keeping your Kairos toped off from Nurgles chip damage.

In the second list I like throwing Pinks through a bridge. Also I am not sure about a 20 man unit. Maybe that is too much overkill. Though if Nurgle is your archenemy. Maybe try to squeeze in those Soulsnare Shackles here too? It just seems great to make the people who have 4 inch move on most units not be able to run or charge. Also Glottkin should have this new ability that lets him and another unit charge out of sequence? I am not sure about the wording on both of these effects but if it stops his out of sequence charging that should be a huge pain.

Haha yea I read your post and that’s what prompted me to write this post. It’s uncanny how similar they are! I do think it’s an interesting list and I think it could work, especially if you get the double turn and use belakor at the bottom of turn 2. 

My biggest concern is damage output. Most damage is D6 and against a 5+ ward, would be tough to burst any thing meaty down.

The other thing with the 2nd list is that you get auto unbinds turn 1, 3 and 5 and summon in 6 screamers, which is nice. 
 

List 1 though can get changecaster spamming spells on a +3 with rerolls, so you’ll need a natural 6 to keep going and get those fate points. 

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A few quick recommendations. You can decrease your drops with a Battle Regiment to throw your troops and Belakor/Fate/LOC into it. If you want to minimize drops then push all the subcommanders in you can as well, I think you can get to 3 in the first list (1 Battle, 1 Extra Commander, 1 Extra subcommander) and 2 in the second (1 Battle, 1 extra Commander). Your deployment is already really predictable so I would not worry too much about showing your hand.

List 1 (Fate, LOC, Bel)

I ran a list similar to the first one as Host Duplicitous with a swap out of Scribes for another caster. It is a solid list - I think you get to 9 casts quick on list 1 which is what you really want. Spell selection matters a lot, I think you want access to Tzeentch's Firestorm (Fate), Bolt of Tzeentch (Changecaster), Infusion Arcanum (Ogroid. . . I have it so Fate can steal it if I need to send him in), Treason of Tzeentch (Scribes . . . the -1 hit can be very good if you see an infantry block). When your LOC comes in, he probably gets Unchecked Mutation.

List 2 (The Horrors!)_

I do not like the block of 20 Horrors unless they have something to amp up their shooting a bit. That might mean a Fatemaster and the Aura of Mutability ability so they can be a credible threat. Otherwise their ~66 shots are 33 hits with AOA, 16 wounds with no Rend for 500 points. I would also put Arcane Suggestion on the Ogroid in list 2 for the -1 save ability to effectively get a rend from the Horrors. Try it out - but my take in general on Horrors is that their role is to sit on objectives and clog the board with bodies across multiple, discrete board positions.

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3 hours ago, Calypso2ts said:

A few quick recommendations. You can decrease your drops with a Battle Regiment to throw your troops and Belakor/Fate/LOC into it. If you want to minimize drops then push all the subcommanders in you can as well, I think you can get to 3 in the first list (1 Battle, 1 Extra Commander, 1 Extra subcommander) and 2 in the second (1 Battle, 1 extra Commander). Your deployment is already really predictable so I would not worry too much about showing your hand.

List 1 (Fate, LOC, Bel)

I ran a list similar to the first one as Host Duplicitous with a swap out of Scribes for another caster. It is a solid list - I think you get to 9 casts quick on list 1 which is what you really want. Spell selection matters a lot, I think you want access to Tzeentch's Firestorm (Fate), Bolt of Tzeentch (Changecaster), Infusion Arcanum (Ogroid. . . I have it so Fate can steal it if I need to send him in), Treason of Tzeentch (Scribes . . . the -1 hit can be very good if you see an infantry block). When your LOC comes in, he probably gets Unchecked Mutation.

List 2 (The Horrors!)_

I do not like the block of 20 Horrors unless they have something to amp up their shooting a bit. That might mean a Fatemaster and the Aura of Mutability ability so they can be a credible threat. Otherwise their ~66 shots are 33 hits with AOA, 16 wounds with no Rend for 500 points. I would also put Arcane Suggestion on the Ogroid in list 2 for the -1 save ability to effectively get a rend from the Horrors. Try it out - but my take in general on Horrors is that their role is to sit on objectives and clog the board with bodies across multiple, discrete board positions.

Hmmm definitely appreciate the input. 

To me, sounds like the Belakor list would be more competitive?

The idea about the 20 pinks was to tie them up on an objective and just sit on it. I do like the idea of making them a credible shooting threat. I was thinking to do the -1 to hit and wound to make em last even longer, but the neg 1 save would be better. 
The concept with this list was that I have 20 pinks on an objective with the ability to bridge.

The army is incredibly fast.

I have heaps of summoning potential, with the scribes zipping around, 6 screamers and easily 9 fate points a round with additional 10 blues. So I hold one objective, zip around with the 2x3 screamers and turtle with the rest. 
 

However, what you guys are proposing for list 2 is something like this?

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Kairos Fateweaver (435)
Lord of Change (420)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (135)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (250)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (250)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (115)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulsnare Shackles (65)
Daemonic Simulacrum (90)

Total: 1995 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 71
Drops: 7
 

also, totally agree that spells are important, just didn’t want to flood this post with too much info with battalions and spells. I can bring this down to a 2 drop or a 4 drop with an additional artefact. 

Edited by Icetea
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Without knowing your other matchups right now. It might be worthwhile to not be a onedrop and instead take enhancements for example? You only said a one drop Glottkin Nurgle list is your main matchup and ofcourse generally speaking being a one drop is benefitial and maybe even the superior choice overall but if the match up you are really worried about is a one drop anyways just having other benefits and giving them the decision on who goes first without competition might be worth thinking about? I have not played 3.0 yet so take that with a grain of salt.

Having 2*10 pinks is so much better then 1*20 pinks. Agree on that change. I am not sure about the Daemonic Simulacrum though. Soulsnare Shakles seems nice but the Simulacrum? If you wanna bring that third endless spell here are suggestions considering your nurgle fear: If you want a damaging endless spell because you are afraid of your damage potential think about Quicksilver Swords. I have not seen anyone test it yet but it bypasses ward saves. That was your fear in Nurgle concerning your damage output if I am not mistaken. I am not sure if the damage numbers effectively change when you crunch the numbers but I will leave that to you. If you really want to ****** nurgle off further Shards of Valagharr? Halving movement and making units lose fly would be most humorous to have the only fast unit they have go down to 4inches aswell just like the rest of theirs. Though I am unsure about its practicallity for the normal footsloggers. Going from 4 inches to 2 seems funny but is it important? Debatable and depending on the circumstances. It can be but I think this should be rather aimed at the flyers if taken at all. If you go for maybe a spell enhancement when not going for a one drop list may I recommend Chronomatic Cogs for the additional cast on your whole team? Yeah I just do not like the Daemonic Simulacrum that might be a personal thing.

Also may I ask why you swapped over from Host Arcanum to Host Duplicitous? The AOE Casting rerolls thing is great no doubts. Just wanted to mention that Host Arcanum was a decent choice. Did not see the need to change that. Just curious what convinced you.  

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Hey Duke! Appreciate the response. 
I was thinking Daemonic Simulacrum because it offers more damage output. 
Though the shards is a very interesting choice, ive never seen them before and made me laugh when I read it.  

The purpose for choosing Duplicitous over Arcanum was because it gives me an extra 135 points to play with as I don’t need to take scribes. 
 

I just played my mate now and he’s ward rolls were really strong. It took 2 turns to take out his 2x8 wound flyers. This included Kairos, LOC and Ogroid all unleashing their spells off. I only didn’t get 1 spell off in each round. 

Essentially he played exactly as I thought he would. He went first, jumped onto the 3 objectives and held em. 
On each objective, there were about 28 -35 wounds each. Having a 4+ ward in round 1 and reverting back to a 5+ ward from round 2. Plain and simply, in list 2, the damage output wasn’t there and I couldn’t get him off the points. By the time turn 3 came, he won priority and he was ahead on points and that was game. 
 

I’m starting to think maybe flamers are the way to go?? 

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How did the Daemonic Simulacrum perform? Did it do anything? 

Well yes. Flamers are our ranged damage dealer though better in a different host. In melee the most potent damage are still Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs but I am not sure about their points cost.

Would anything have changed if you had first turn? Would you have been able to somehow avoid him getting everything on the objectives in his turn 1?

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6 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

If you go for maybe a spell enhancement when not going for a one drop list may I recommend Chronomatic Cogs for the additional cast on your whole team? 

Cogs no longer provide everyone an additional cast - that was errata'ed fairly quickly, although 45 points for 1 cast is not bad on someone like Fateweaver who can steal quality spells from other 1 cast wizards.

I think you can put more bodies on the objectives than Nurgle - 10 Plagues is 20 W but only 10 models for capping, so a Horrors unit can quickly grow to outnumber if you assault onto it. Your birds are worth 5 as well and summoning in Blues can attempt to assault onto them and/or advance there the next turn. It does sound like a rough match, there must have been some very good run rolls tokeep you boxed off the objectives Turn 1.

I find Flamers to be too expensive for how fragile they are - even to summon they are a lot of Fate Points.

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Probably took about 3-4 turns to cut down the 20 pinks (with 2x flyers first and then I engaged the Glottkin). challenge was that he took the point and charged me afterwards. So I couldn’t burst down his units that engaged with the pinks. I probably could’ve taken down the Glottkin by the close of turn 4, but by then he had a significant victory point advantage and won the game. 

He had 5 blightkings and a hero on each of the other 2 points. So on either point, he would’ve taken 3-4 turns to down the pinks, but I had no answer to the blightkings.
 

again, honestly it may have been his crazy ward saves and in a regular game it could’ve played out differently.
 

my conclusion is so far that I need 2 units of pinks and not 1 unit of 20 pinks.

I need changecaster…definitely. 

I haven’t used bridge yet effectively in a game and umbral spell portal is great really for turn 1 or to snipe a hero (so I’m leaning more towards umbral). 

i didn’t run Daemonic Sirmulacrum this time, but in another game it did 2 MW against deepkin (meh…)

Also, 10 blues isn’t that effective to contest an objective as they die sooooo fast. They absolutely need support as they melt if anyone else is on the objective. So I’m starting to lean to the Belakor list and summon in a LOC. 
 

flamers are too expensive and die too fast. Agree with this point. 
 

it’s interesting that in the most recent tournaments (including in a recent 100+ tournament) there has been no Tzeentch representation at all. I wonder if the point hike to horrors was the nail in the coffin? Hard to get horrors and heroes in that include both kairos and LOC?

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On 1/8/2022 at 10:23 AM, Duke of Mousillon said:

They also changed Archaeon interacting with non std lists. I imagine Archaeon Tzeentch lists relied on him using destiny dice? I never looked into Archaeon in Tzeentch.

Archaeon Tzeentch was very very strong, with Destiny Dice to make key saves or trigger slayer of kings and shield of fate he was very unfun toplay against (especially with Heroic Recovery and lifeswarm)

 

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The recent changes absolutely dismantled Archeon Tzeentch lists which were artificially propping up Tzeentch play and win rates.

No destiny dice

No change coven

No heroic recovery in combat 

Warmaster on archeon warscroll changed to allow zero benefit from allegence abilties so no locus, agendas, lore spells, can't even summon from him like other tzeentch heros. 

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5 hours ago, Halkbat said:

The recent changes absolutely dismantled Archeon Tzeentch lists which were artificially propping up Tzeentch play and win rates.

No destiny dice

No change coven

No heroic recovery in combat 

Warmaster on archeon warscroll changed to allow zero benefit from allegence abilties so no locus, agendas, lore spells, can't even summon from him like other tzeentch heros. 

It's revealed how thin the Tzeentch book is in 3.0. Dragons, shootcast and other builds utterly eviscerate standard Tzeentch builds, IMHO, save the 50 - 60 horrors lists.

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I'm trying to build a fun list for an upcoming tournament. I know Tzaangors suck but I spent ages painting them so I kinda wanna play them :) how does this list look? Do you guys see any major setbacks and if so, what should I change?

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Kairos Fateweaver (435)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (255)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
The Blue Scribes (135)
Tzaangor Shaman (135)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (115)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (115)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (115)
10 x Tzaangors (175)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (210)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulsnare Shackles (65)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 100
Drops: 10
 

 Thank you for your input.

Edited by Jabbuk
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