AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Causalis]

Wow, not much traffic in this thread, no?

Anyway, can someone recommend some StD units for the whole coalition thing? I was eyeing the Chaos Sorc Lord + 5-10 Knights. Knights with the buff are very tanky and can put out the hurt in melee - a phase which Tzeentch isn't great at.

[Ganigumo]

I've been eyeing varanguard as an option myself, 3+ save, elite(so they can issue commands to themselves), they can hit hard sometimes, and shield of fate will make them super durable. Daemon prince is a solid option for a killy hero, and Sorc lord on manticore is pretty good imo.

[Causalis]

Ok gang, I got a few more games in and tryed the StD coalition units I talked about. Here are my observations:

• My Changecaster cranks out spells like there is no tomorrow. I use the Mass Conjuration Agenda on him, use his 3D6 to cast something and use two DD for the second spell. Thus he easily can cast 2 spells with 9+. Along with the CA from my LoC he now has +2 to cast and with the spell from the Blue Scribes he only needs to roll a re-rollable 7 to keep casting. He often casts about 4 spells each hero phase that way. Very potent!
• Chaos Sorc Lord + 5 Chaos Knights worked like a charm. In my game I charged a 10 man Chaos Warrior squad, killed a few of them and piled into a 20 man Chaos Warrior squad, effectively tying up 30 Chaos Warriors. I have to experiment more but this seems like a good budget deal to me. The Chaos Knights bring speed, durability and a good melee punch.
• How I wish our Kairic Acolytes were a bit cheaper! I run two min squads and they are fine for holding an objective and as fodder to keep the enemy occupied. But they rarely deal any damage.
• Speaking of damage: I ran a squad of 6 Flamers in Eternal Conflaguration. Needless to say they are very strong, lol.
• I'm still a bit unsure which endless spells to take. I mostly take Cogs, Spellportal and Shackles. The latter two are mandatory and have a huge impact. But I'm not really sure on the Cogs. Any recommendations (besides the bridge)?

[Tizianolol]

Guys I have a question about brimstone horrors. When my unit of 10 pinks became brimstone, im not immune to battleshock anymore. Can I use rally commamd ability on them? If yes how many dice i have to roll? Can I bring back pinks again? I know its faq , but havnt found anythink about brimstone! Thx a lot!:)

[Paniere]

38 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys I have a question about brimstone horrors. When my unit of 10 pinks became brimstone, im not immune to battleshock anymore. Can I use rally commamd ability on them? If yes how many dice i have to roll? Can I bring back pinks again? I know its faq , but havnt found anythink about brimstone! Thx a lot!:)

Only brimstones actually count as slain, so you can roll as many dices as the number of dead brimstones and you can bring back only brimstones models using rally

[Tizianolol]

Guys is pink horrors base size 25? Or 32? Thx!

[Cuadrao]

32!, blues and brimstons 25

[Baron_Bathory]

On 9/30/2021 at 5:22 AM, Gesundheit said:

I would Play something like:

Archaon

Magister on Disc

Kairos

1x20 Acolytes

2x10 Acolytes

spellportal

 

Thats 1985 points and realy strong!

You got Good spellcasting for FP and okayish objective control.

i Hope That helps

I've been seeing a lot of variants of this list from power gamers lately and I'm kind of confused, how is this legal? I'm new to 3.0 so I might be missing something, but as far as I know, we're only allowed 400 points of allies, Archie is 800 and change. Is this allowed?

[Gesundheit]

Archaon got the Tzeentch keyword and does Not count against this points. He is no allie because he is the boss!😅👍

[Baron_Bathory]

17 minutes ago, Gesundheit said:

Archaon got the Tzeentch keyword and does Not count against this points. He is no allie because he is the boss!😅👍

Ah I see, thank you for clearing that up. I remember thinking about it so I put it into the AoS app and it was flagged as invalid due to "too many allied points". Maybe the app doesn't have him indexed properly. Thanks for the reply  

[Nactigal]

I'm starting a foray into Tzeentch with some pink horrors.

How viable is a mixed mortals and deamons list without Archaeon?

[Tizianolol]

guys can i do Reckless Abandon agenda with my Varanguard unit? it seems very sttrong if i can!

[R3n3]

Point reductions inside the new released battlescroll by GW: kairic acolytes, tzaangors, tzaangor shaman and enlightened. 

Horrors are now 250 pts

 

As a member of the pyrofane cult this makes me pretty happy. Maybe pyrofane als cult of summoners will become more popular.

What do you think?

Edited December 22, 2021 by R3n3

[Gesundheit]

51 minutes ago, R3n3 said:

Point reductions inside the new released battlescroll by GW: kairic acolytes, tzaangors, tzaangor shaman and enlightened. 

I mean These changes are good, but who the f***** plays enlightened without disc? And why should i play tzaangors?

53 minutes ago, R3n3 said:

Horrors are now 250 pts

I always liked horrors, but they Need updated rules to balance them and Not just a dumb Point increase…. You wont balance them, you just stop seeing them. Why not include something like in 40k that you Need to buy Blues and brimstones? Then you got a cheap demon battleline but Not an op or opressive one. If i want them as big blob, i pay the points!🤷🏼‍♂️
Problem solved!

 

57 minutes ago, R3n3 said:

As a member of the pyrofane cult this makes me pretty happy. Maybe pyrofane als cult of summoners will become more popular.

Yeah I liked cult of summoners always the most and i think this Could work just Fine with acolytes now.

[Mako]

A question on horrors...I really want to have some horrors as an ally unit in my slaves to darkness army. I really like the models and the splitting rule is really cool as well as seeming pretty useful tactically. My main concern is how much you need to buy just to field 10 pink horrors. As I understand it you basically need a box of the pinks and two boxes of blues to cover the possibilities which comes in at 75 quid in the UK which is a lot considering around 50 quid of that is generally going to be off the table for most parts of the game. Just wondering if anyone has come up with any cool ways of figuring out a way to reduce the number of models you need? Or am I overestimating how much I would need?

I was kinda thinking of just getting two boxes and painting them all in a half and half/morphing scheme blending between blue and pink and then using some kind of marker to signify which were blue and which were pink. Would this be accepted in most scenarios? Or should I just bite the bullet and pay up?

[Koala]

Well, considering pinks are on 32mm bases while blue/brimstones are 25mm this would probably be quite weird. 

If you just want to have fun with the models there is a (now clearly inferior) option to run the pinks without splitting.

If you want to be competative you will probably have to bite the bullet.

[Halkbat]

If you just want some horrors in slaves to darkness you can summon 5 with the gaunt summoner.  If your goal is just some demons I find the flamers a nice addition to slaves adding some ok tanged attacks.

[Duke of Mousillon]

I was not able to play 3.0 yet with the whole corona thing but I am playing around with some potential Guild of Summoners lists in my head at the moment and I just can not get away from Pink Horrors. With the Guild of Summoners not being able to summon in more bodies later on except the one Lord of Change I just cannot see battlelines of Acolytes ever winning the objectives no matter their size. Am I underestemating Acolytes or are some Pink Horrors unavoidable for guild of summoners even at their new point cost?

[Halkbat]

Pink horrors are still the cheapest way to bring lots of bodies.  Going up in points is not surprising as they were expected to increase along with everything else but decreased instead. Acolytes went from 100 to 125 horrors going from 220 to 250 instead of briefly 215 makes sense.

I always take 1 unit of pink horrors in every list but never more than 2 with something else filling the 3rd battle line spot.

[Duke of Mousillon]

Yeah I think so too. I think you can get away without them maybe when you can summon more bodies later on but then again. Thinking about Guild of Summoners here I have a hard time not having them in my list.

On another note, I am uncertain about the new rule interactions with allies and coalitions etc. If I take Belakor in a Disciples list will he be able to get a spell from the Demons list? I do not have the rule book at hand so I have no Idea about the proper wording on it but since Belakor is below 400 points he can just be an ally instead of a coalition member right? I just noticed that they changed some coalition interactions in the new eratas.

Edit: He does not have the Tzeentch keyword. I forgot. Nevermind.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Duke of Mousillon

[Iceteadave]

Changecaster, he has the ability to do fate and fortune. Can I spam the same spell? I heard in tournaments that he can cast up to 9 spells, how is this the case? Example: spam pink fire of Tzeentch 

[Duke of Mousillon]

Not quite. You see he still has to obide by the rule of only casting each spell one time a turn throughout your army. What he can do is for example: Cast Pink Fire of Tzeentch. If that was a 9+ he can cast another spell but Pink Fire of Tzeentch has already been cast. So now you can cast for example Mythic Shield. If that was a 9+ too then you cast Arcane Bolt. That was a 9+ too? Then cast the tzeentch demon wizard spell lore spell you gave him or maybe some endless spells you brought to the game. 

So yes he can in theory have an unlimited amount of spell casts per turn, given you only role 9+. In reality he is limited by the number of different spells he is elligible to cast. Most times these will be: Pink Fire of Tzeentch, Mythic Shield, Arcane Bolt, the spell/spells you gave him in your army creation and endless spells you brought. 

[MattyP]

Why are thoughts on using Tzaangor and acolytes, going for more of a mortal army. Recent 1k list I took was

magister on disc 

Ogroid

tzaangor shaman

10 acolytes

10 acolytes 

10 tzaangors

3 screamers 

pyrofane cult coven 

didn’t want to take pinks or LoC since it was 1k but didn’t have much of any success with the list against kruelboyz. It’s only my second 3.0 game and I’m still trying to get used to the changes and other new things 

[Duke of Mousillon]

I have not gotten to play third edition yet either so keep that in mind. I will just give you my thoughts as I read rules @MattyP

What I see is Acolytes being the cheapest generic battleline we have. At 115 they are 10 wound with eh defensive stats but they cast a spell and have some ranged chip damage. If they get into melee they probabaly fall over against any melee unit if you dont bring 30 of them and even then you better have them battleshock immune when they are done in melee. Are they worse then Pink Horrors? Yes I think so, even at 30 for 345 points they have 20 wounds less then 10 pinks at 250, but at almost half the points cost I think Kairic Acolytes are not to be forgotten. They essentially do the same thing pinks do but are a WAY worse tar pit. Horrors also just cast one spell and do chip damage otherwise. 

I am conflicted on Tzaangors. I want to like them but I just can not. The good. They have the same defensive profile as Acolytes (if you can call not becoming even less defensive a positive) but they have two wounds. So point for point you will get more wounds out of your Tzaangors which is decent. Two wounds are nice. They can run and charge which is an awesome ability and unique to them in Tzeentch if I am not mistaken. Their melee profile is not terrible? As i said I have not played third edition yet but the savage greatblades being 2 attacks with 4+/3+/-1/2 seems not bad, essentially enlightened spears minus an attack, and having 4 in ten models with these is quite a lot. Even the normal weapons can be 3 attacks with 3+/3+/-/1 which is ofcourse only chip damage but three attacks per model is nothing to ignore. Now the bad part I see. They have no utility like the "best" battle line (pinks) or the cheapest battleline (acolytes). No ranged chip damage. No spell. Furthermore. They seem to fall over quite quickly too and with the bonus of an extra attack falling away at already 8 models, I do not see myself running only a 10 man block for efficiency reasons, if i count on them as a melee threat. Furthermore 1 inch reach on 32mm bases on a 10+ man unit makes coherency a big hamper for the potential damage they can actually inflict. This means the "a thousand paper cuts" does not really work out does it. If I have the option most times I want my savage greatblades in front fighting and not the normal weapons. Does this mean I would rather run shields then paired blades? Yes i think so. I just do not see many of the non greatblades getting into swinging range. So for efficiency reasons if you want these to take a hit in melee and still swing back properly you do not look at 175 points but at least 350?(Which will be 100 points more then pinks and still 10 wounds less) Just keep in mind that their +1 to wound requires being wholly within 12 of an arcanite hero. If you really want these to work, which i doubt they will to my own dismay, I am afraid most buffs the books wants to give them are pointless. The coven and the Tzaangor Shaman spell which bring back Tzaangor models are too unreliable. Give them a Fatemaster who can easily keep up with them to buff their melee as an arcanite and via command ability, if you think you can keep them reliably wholly within 9, because apparently Tzaangor Shamans are buffing every Tzaangor unit except this one. On a sidenote: then you are looking at a battleline and a hero who will not cast spells for your fate points, may or may not matter depending on the rest of your list and the circumstances. If you plan on getting them up as fast as possible, which seems to be a not unwise decision, consider a Great-Brayshaman for bonus movement.

Again. Just thoughts when reading through the rules. My opinion is as good as yours here.

[Duke of Mousillon]

I myself am interested in the Guild of Summoners just for the sole reason to not having to paint too many summonable units. Though I would need to paint probably 2 Lord of Changes as summonable units? and then again I never get around having pinks in my list because I am just too afraid of not being able to summon more bodies. Right now i am think about smth like this:

Be'Lakor

Kairos

The Blue Scribes

Curseling

Changecaster

Kairic Acolytes x10

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch x10

Pink Horrors of Tzeentch x10

Umbral Spellportal

Soulsnare Shackles

I could see having only one unit of pinks and put the points into acolytes and smth else, like a cheap sixth hero or a third endless spell or even just 2 units of acolytes to cover more board space but yeah. That would decrease the painting effort. But this list is where my thoughts are heading towards rn. Having a hard time getting motivated to actually buy, assemble and paint things when you never even know when you are allowed to play games in stores again. Corona things.

Any thoughts on Be'Lakor? Is he actually a unit you can send off alone and let him do his thing?