AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Jabbuk]

Hey everyone, 

I'd like to get your opinions on how to finish my 2k list of Guild of Summoners (mainly arcanites). I know it's not a popular build but I'd still like to try to make it work and be good. I like the theme of it and the models. Right now I'm at 1710 points and I have basically 3 options to finish my list and I'm not sure how. I'd like to know what you guys think as it will also guide my final purchase.

The list: 
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (255)
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (150)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Tzaangors (195)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (210)

Total: 1710 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99
Drops: 10

Option #1:
Finish my list with a Changeling and Endless Spells. This list is inspired by Ash McEwan's list from Cancon 2020 I believe. So the Changeling's role would be to provide 2 casts, bringing my total potential cast at 12 spells in turn 1, but also give the opportunity to steal an objective early game if my opponent deploys badly, or summon the Lord of Change on the other side of the board, as Ash was suggesting. Plus the model is really cool.

Option #2:
Finish the list with the Curseling and Endless Spells. Curseling is a 2 cast wizard as well, and also fairly strong anti-magic. An interesting choice.

Option #3:
Finish the list with The Blue Scribes and 10xAcolytes. Blue Scribes would certainly provide additional reliability to all of my cast, making me re-roll them. So this is really strong. Plus I add another unit of Acolytes to make up for the single cast of the Blue Scribes, still keeping my total cast potential at 12 spells. I don't have endless spells to help with mortal wounds, however, and I don't have the other side of the board LoC summon potential.

 

So which option would you guys pick and why? I'd like to hear your opinions on that. Thanks!

Edited September 11, 2021 by Jabbuk

[SAWhit88]

Under the new rules for being able to take 1 unit of BoC in every 4, in a DoT army, if you take tzaangor units can they be the reduced cost ones from BoC?

[GrimDork]

No, it was clarified in the recent FAQ.

[Grugg]

Hi all, bit new to tzeentch coming from an ogor mawtribes background.

Picked up some models and looking to make a 1k list for a small friendly tournament.

Models I have:

Changeling 

ogroid thaumaturge

Fateskimmer chariot

Change caster on foot

10 pink, 20 blue, 20 brimstone horrors.

Exalted flamer.

Anything I should add to make a legal/decent List?

 

Thanks

[Paniere]

27 minutes ago, Grugg said:

Hi all, bit new to tzeentch coming from an ogor mawtribes background.

Picked up some models and looking to make a 1k list for a small friendly tournament.

Models I have:

Changeling 

ogroid thaumaturge

Fateskimmer chariot

Change caster on foot

10 pink, 20 blue, 20 brimstone horrors.

Exalted flamer.

Anything I should add to make a legal/decent List?

 

Thanks

You need a second battleline. My first choice would be taking 10 pinks +20 blues +20 brims. You can take 3 leaders, only the changecaster being a no brainer among your choices. So depending on which other 2 you pick, you would end up with : 3 leaders+2 pinks=900/915 pts, leaving space for 3 screamers or 1 endless spell (demonic simulacrum /portals). I'd play host duplicitous with this setup.

On the other hand , if you want to include your exalted flamer, you will be at 825/840 pts, leaving points for 3 scremers as battleline in host arcanum and maybe 1 endless spell. In this case you should buy 6 more screamers for the free summoning from the fanged circlet (host arcanum artifact). I hope this helps

[ChaosUndivided]

I have been sitting on a tzeentch army for awhile now, the models are assembled, but i have yet to play an actual game with it.

I own archaon and a LoC/Kiaros but i don't want to bring arch to a friendly game and agreed to leave archaon at home, however, i still want to play competitively, or at least not get steam rolled so im kinda at a loss on how to make a list.

For units i got lots of tzangors on disc and foot, a lot of kiaric acolytes, and horrors, at least 2 full units or more of each.

I dont have all the heroes but can proxy them. I want yo stick to strictly DoT units, any suggestions?

Edited September 28, 2021 by ChaosUndivided

[Gesundheit]

I would Play something like:

Archaon

Magister on Disc

Kairos

1x20 Acolytes

2x10 Acolytes

spellportal

 

Thats 1985 points and realy strong!

You got Good spellcasting for FP and okayish objective control.

i Hope That helps

[ChaosUndivided]

I guess i dont understand what to do about battleshock. All the mortals are a 5+ save with 5 bravery like everything shatters. I got 10 pinks and 20 blue/brims but their dmg output sux plus they lost some abilities. The ghb command to avoid battleshock can only be used once a round and then there is a real lack of immunity elsewhere unless you rely on fate dice.

Also tzeentch cast a lot of spells but their not really nukes, seems like you have to focus fire to hurt anything big.

The lord of change and kiaros are so close in points is a lil confusing. On one hand LoC can take trait and artifact and his warscroll spells seems better? On other hand kairos cast an extra spell and his once per game ability is nice to have. Is one preferred over the other or is it a toss up depending on list? I find a lot of list i made that 15 points came in handy elsewhere.

[Jabbuk]

On 10/2/2021 at 5:47 PM, ChaosUndivided said:

I guess i dont understand what to do about battleshock. All the mortals are a 5+ save with 5 bravery like everything shatters. I got 10 pinks and 20 blue/brims but their dmg output sux plus they lost some abilities. The ghb command to avoid battleshock can only be used once a round and then there is a real lack of immunity elsewhere unless you rely on fate dice.

Also tzeentch cast a lot of spells but their not really nukes, seems like you have to focus fire to hurt anything big.

The lord of change and kiaros are so close in points is a lil confusing. On one hand LoC can take trait and artifact and his warscroll spells seems better? On other hand kairos cast an extra spell and his once per game ability is nice to have. Is one preferred over the other or is it a toss up depending on list? I find a lot of list i made that 15 points came in handy elsewhere.

The Guild of Summoners coven has an artefact that grants battleshock immunity in a 12in radius of the bearer. That's really helpful if you're heavy on mortals (like I am). You can also summon a LoC at 9 summoning points, so it might offer you an opportunity to choose.

It seems Kairos is really strong if you have him starting in your list. The "change any dice" ability is really strong (cancel a charge) and he can knows the spells of every casters around so it opens the door for some powerful tricks (warscroll spells only). 

The latest Tzeentch focus on AoSCoach highlights some really interesting insights. But you're not wrong that they don't seem to have big nukes. It does look like you need to focus fire to kill. 

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Bregor]

On 10/2/2021 at 4:47 PM, ChaosUndivided said:

I guess i dont understand what to do about battleshock. All the mortals are a 5+ save with 5 bravery like everything shatters. I got 10 pinks and 20 blue/brims but their dmg output sux plus they lost some abilities. The ghb command to avoid battleshock can only be used once a round and then there is a real lack of immunity elsewhere unless you rely on fate dice.

Also tzeentch cast a lot of spells but their not really nukes, seems like you have to focus fire to hurt anything big.

The lord of change and kiaros are so close in points is a lil confusing. On one hand LoC can take trait and artifact and his warscroll spells seems better? On other hand kairos cast an extra spell and his once per game ability is nice to have. Is one preferred over the other or is it a toss up depending on list? I find a lot of list i made that 15 points came in handy elsewhere.

Kairos' warscroll is a good bit better imo - while Infernal Gateway *may* roll higher in some circumstances, getting a guaranteed 6 mortal wounds out of the spell is good to have especially with how many 5-6 wound heroes around, and getting a free Chaos Spawn out of the deal potentially is a nice bonus.

Battleshock is definitely a problem if you go Mortal/Arcanite, but the Guild of Summoners artifact does really help. 

[ChaosUndivided]

Thanks guys. I didnt notice kiaros could cast others spells thats huge. I only have one chicken and i think i wanna try kiaros out so not really interested in guild of summoners tho. Right now im working on pyrophane list with kiaros, blue scribes, herald on foot, curseling, ogeroid, and a fatemaster with 2x20 acolytes, pink horrors with split, and a spell portal. 

I wanna try some magic shenanigans with kiaros casting the other heroes spells with master of magic. Gonna use the spellportal to unload turn one and try to crank out some fatepoints early then unload with buffed up acolyte bolts before they shatter. If i got to im gonna use a fate dice or two to keep them from running. I wanted to try using lifeswarm to bring back some acolytes or keep kiaros/ogeroid alive but i would have to drop a hero or something to fit it in and i dont think i want to.

[Domize]

This might be a dumb question - but if a Chaos Sorcerer Lord (on foot or manticore) was added to a Tzeentch army as a coallition ally, are they unable to learn spells from the Lore of Fate? They have the Mortal, Wizard and Tzeentch keywords, no? The app doesn't allow it, so I'm guessing not. Or does the Mark of Chaos Tzeentch not count? Was this different before the coallition rules were added?

I still think the manticore with Flaming Weapon is a solid choice, but wouldn't mind some of the mortal spell lore instead.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Domize

[Cuadrao]

you can, coallition arent allied units and the latest errata specifies it

Designer’s Note: Coalition units are not allied units, so the limitations that apply to allied units do not apply to them. This means that coalition units can be given one of your army’s enhancements, as long as they have the correct keywords or are of the correct unit type needed to receive it.’

[Domize]

31 minutes ago, Cuadrao said:

you can, coallition arent allied units and the latest errata specifies it

Designer’s Note: Coalition units are not allied units, so the limitations that apply to allied units do not apply to them. This means that coalition units can be given one of your army’s enhancements, as long as they have the correct keywords or are of the correct unit type needed to receive it.’

Ah cool - so the app needs some updating then, glad to hear it! Thanks

[ArkanautDadmiral]

How are slaves units in DoT? Any decent synergies etc?

I’m really tempted to start a DoT army (I’ve some bits already from Aether War), and I really like the idea of making some knights from palladors, and lord on mount/manticore/karkadrak from a converted Aquillor. Really want to do a fatemaster with a Painbringer base model too.

Probably be a path to glory army but be nice to know how DoT slaves fare in regular matched play.

Also, noticed people taking magister on disc quite a bit now, when he came out it felt like the consensus was he was poor. Has something changed? Why’s he a good pick now? I have one, so useful.

[ChaosUndivided]

@Domize im not sure that sorcerer lord on manticore is gonna hold up in a fist fight even with flaming weapons. With no ward save of any type he will degrade fast especially if shooting is on the table, he will basically be a free point for killing a monster for your opponent. One interesting thing about him is that other tzeentch wizards can learn/cast his warscroll spell.

@ArkanautDadmiral im not an expert on tzeentch, but i know S2D well enuff and just built 2500 points of tzeentch models while pouring over their book for past month. There is definitely some combos between the 2 factions. Obviously Archaon being able to proc slayer of kings with destiny dice + kairos is there but i dont think your friends will love it. One interesting choice is the sorcerer lord on foot cuz he is a cheap mortal spellcaster which tzeentch kinda lacks. The mortal spell lore is full of useful stuff, personally i like glimpse the future best, but arcane suggestions and shield of fate have their uses.

With that said oracular visions only works on S2D putting the sorcerer at a permanent 3up save unless you take other S2D stuff. From what i gather the daemon prince with axe is a good choice as a beat stick.

The issue with say chaos warriors is they could be a good choice if buffed properly with right spells, they could be kinda killy and stay alive, however, there is already things like pink horrors who are just better tar pits who dont need support freeing up your spell casters to just deal damage rather than buff. This seems to be the issue with taking S2D in tzeentch, when it comes down to it they are not very efficient points wise and tzeentch almost needs to play tzeentch in order to make the most of fate points and their playstyle. In a casual scene there is definitely the opportunity to mix and match tho. I would take a good look at the buffs the spell lores have in comparison to the S2D unit you want to use.

I think the magister on disc has been one of those on the fence type units. Hes ok for the points but when compared to other options he kinda falls short. Kairos has a better version of his spell, however, being able to pin 2 units with a spawn is nice. Then there is the auto includes, blue scribes, and herald on foot, which seems to appear in any competitive list. This starts to cut into how many points you got left to play with particularly if your running archaon + kairos or kairos + lord of change already, often this means something like magister gets left out, not cuz he is bad, just not essential.

[Ben__Halford]

Just a quick question:

Do you recieve a fate point for casting an endless spell?

Not played Tzeentch in 3rd Ed and I seem to remember it there being something about it in the FAQ that I now can't find.

[Bregor]

16 hours ago, Ben__Halford said:

Just a quick question:

Do you recieve a fate point for casting an endless spell?

Not played Tzeentch in 3rd Ed and I seem to remember it there being something about it in the FAQ that I now can't find.

Yep - each endless warscroll should start with "This endless spell is summoned with a spell that..." so you have to cast a spell to put it on the board in the first place, getting you a fate point.

[Ben__Halford]

5 hours ago, Bregor said:

Yep - each endless warscroll should start with "This endless spell is summoned with a spell that..." so you have to cast a spell to put it on the board in the first place, getting you a fate point.

Nice one, thanks!

[Domize]

If Be'Lakor is taken in a Tzeentch army, he can't cast any spells beyond his warscroll spell, mystic shield/arcane bolt and any neutral endless spells, right? I'm assuming not, but Warscroll builder lets you pick from the Lore of Change - but I'm guessing this is a mistake, since he'd not get the Tzeentch keyword. 

[EntMan]

A question about Boon of Mutation and maximum unit size.

When my Tzaangor Shaman uses Boon of Mutation to slay some enemy models, if my Tzaangor unit is still full strength at 10 models can I still add the new Tzaangors to it or does maximum unit size block me from producing new Tzaangors until the unit has fewer than 10 models in it?

Edited October 31, 2021 by EntMan

[Bregor]

On 10/31/2021 at 9:20 AM, EntMan said:

A question about Boon of Mutation and maximum unit size.

When my Tzaangor Shaman uses Boon of Mutation to slay some enemy models, if my Tzaangor unit is still full strength at 10 models can I still add the new Tzaangors to it or does maximum unit size block me from producing new Tzaangors until the unit has fewer than 10 models in it?

So  this got clarified a bit in the latest round of FAQs:  The maximum unit size of a unit is the largest a unit can possibly get after being reinforced ( see the core rules FAQ ).  Therefore the maximum unit size for Tzaangors is actually 30, and you’re fine to add models to that unit until you reach that point. 

[Causalis]

Greetings! I'm currently building a 2000p force of Tzeentch and wanted to get some feedback, if this is viable. My main concern is that I'll just get run over by Orks/Ogres etc. and don't have enough stuff to hold objectives. 

Gameplan would be to sit on 2-3 objectives with the Acolytes and Pinks. I would try to protect the Acolytes with the Shackles and have the Ogroid nearby for some counter charges. Kairos can snipe support heroes with his spell and hopefully tarpit enemy units by transforming them into a Spawn which I can place at the edge of the unit so that just a few models can reach it. 

Do you think this list has any teeth or will it just collapse?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (135)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (435)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Lord of Change (420)
- General
- Artefact: Amulet of Destiny (Universal Artefact)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (215)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (175)
Soulsnare Shackles (65)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1930 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 77
Drops: 8

 

[Causalis]

Got two games in (one against Troggoths, one against BCRs) and wanted to share my observations.

 

1: It feels like 90% of damage comes from the heroes. Mind you besides my heroes I only had Pink Horrors and Kairic Acolytes, so I'm currently trying to shave off some points to get 6-9 Flamers in there for some added punch.

2: All our units are wet noodles in combat. The only thing actually pushing some damage in melee was my buffed Ogroid. 

3. Pink Horros sadly feel like a massive crutch. We HAVE to take them, since all our other units have so bad saves and low amount of wounds that any melee army would just smash us from any objectives. Obviously the Pinks are good at holding objectives and screening but I can't see, say a list with a focus on Acolytes actually winning against Ironjawz, Ogres etc.

 

Am I correct with my views or do you know some secret combos that suddenly make Acolytes super deadly or help us out in melee?

Cheers.

[Paniere]

 

One question about the Spellportal-Demonic simulacrum combo. RAW I understand that the simulacrum could be teleported through the first mirror to the second one, in which case it's not considered having moved and can't be picked to move again later in the hero phase . However it  deals damage only after moving, so no damage? Sounds weird to me