AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[AaronWilson]

On 8/21/2021 at 10:30 AM, Creamster said:

How are they ruling Rally? Assuming down to 1 brimstone from a unit of 10 pink's, is that 49 dice? Do further blues and brimstones dead increase the dice pool?

They are ruling rally the same as the other "return slain model" mechanics. So you can only Rally once you're below your starting unit size, in the instance if you have 1 brim and you rally, I've not questioned this but I believe you roll 49 dice and any 6s can return pinks. 

On 8/21/2021 at 7:28 PM, Jabbuk said:

What about the unit summoned by the Gaunt Summoner? (5pinks) Could you use a return mechanism to bring back some since the minimal unit size is usually 10?

Well the maximum unit size for that unit is 5, so the same applies. 

[AaronWilson]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NDfZvDmleBpbUiD6.pdf

New errata is up, Horrors of Tzeentch have a new warscroll.

When Pinks / Blues die they no longer count as being slain, very nicely nips in the bud the Rally/Icon Bearer (which has changed)/Fold Reality/Lifeswarm debate. 

On the brightside as they don't count as being slain, the unit is essentially battleshock immune until you get down to brims dying. 

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NDfZvDmleBpbUiD6.pdf

New errata is up, Horrors of Tzeentch have a new warscroll.

When Pinks / Blues die they no longer count as being slain, very nicely nips in the bud the Rally/Icon Bearer (which has changed)/Fold Reality/Lifeswarm debate. 

On the brightside as they don't count as being slain, the unit is essentially battleshock immune until you get down to brims dying. 

Good work GW! You finally made them a fair unit to play with, and reduced the silly rules interactions by a lot.

I've only got 2 issues with the new scroll:

1. No longer a wizard
2. No separate point cost for choosing Petty vengeance over splitting

This change is good for the health of the game, even if its a nerf. If they can be made to have a cheaper cost for choosing petty vengeance I will be very happy.

[Jabbuk]

2 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/NDfZvDmleBpbUiD6.pdf

New errata is up, Horrors of Tzeentch have a new warscroll.

When Pinks / Blues die they no longer count as being slain, very nicely nips in the bud the Rally/Icon Bearer (which has changed)/Fold Reality/Lifeswarm debate. 

On the brightside as they don't count as being slain, the unit is essentially battleshock immune until you get down to brims dying. 

Really cool changes! So as for the Musician and the Icon Bearer, it says 1 in every 10. Does this mean that the unit of 5 summoned but the Gaunt Summoner can't have either in their unit? 

[AaronWilson]

1 minute ago, Jabbuk said:

Really cool changes! So as for the Musician and the Icon Bearer, it says 1 in every 10. Does this mean that the unit of 5 summoned but the Gaunt Summoner can't have either in their unit? 

Yes indeed. 

[Domize]

I'm surprised they weren't compensated more for losing Channeled Pink Fire. We got the Fate points it provided from the new Icon Bearer, but sad that they only hit on 5+ now. Forces us to use All-Out-Attack to get them to a 4+ to hit - and they're hitting on 6+ instead of 5+ if you Unleash Hell. Not that the pinks were ever much of a damage dealer anyways.

[Jabbuk]

12 minutes ago, Domize said:

I'm surprised they weren't compensated more for losing Channeled Pink Fire. We got the Fate points it provided from the new Icon Bearer, but sad that they only hit on 5+ now. Forces us to use All-Out-Attack to get them to a 4+ to hit - and they're hitting on 6+ instead of 5+ if you Unleash Hell. Not that the pinks were ever much of a damage dealer anyways.

I feel like this change is really good for everyone. I mean they lose their stupid value but it also raises the interest in including Acolytes if you want wizards in your battleline, instead of pinks being strictly better. It's good for internal balance in my mind.

[Grimrock]

I agree that it's a positive change overall for internal balance and the game overall, but I also think it leaves pinks in a bit of a strange spot. Their offensive abilities are pretty much total garbage now, requiring an investment of All Out Attack to reach the absolute bare minimum of competency. They essentially only exist to be a (mostly) battle shock immune blob of wounds. It's... not terrible, but it is quite a bit less interesting. On the plus side now that we finally know how they work I can start working on lists again and see if I can find something I actually want to play that doesn't include Archaon. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Grimrock

[frostyeel]

We can no longer take the cheaper Beasts of Chaos Tzaangors as coalition units. "1 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the 1 Beasts of Chaos faction that does not have the Tzeentch keyword. Those units gain the Tzeentch keyword" I missed that on my first read through as the pink added text is in the middle. Seemed like that was the original intention, but I do need to rework my list now.

[Zappgrot]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:56 AM, AaronWilson said:

They are ruling rally the same as the other "return slain model" mechanics. So you can only Rally once you're below your starting unit size, in the instance if you have 1 brim and you rally, I've not questioned this but I believe you roll 49 dice and any 6s can return pinks. 

Well the maximum unit size for that unit is 5, so the same applies. 

The warscroll changed completely whit the FAQ.  Horror's are no longer wizards, The standard does not bring back models. You can no longer give wounds to brims before blues.  You need to replace models intermediately when they are slain (instead afther all the wounds are aplied)  This pretty much makes bringing back pink back impossible until the moment your running out of brims.  Altough i gues rally is going to be really good for them in that case.  

[Chaos Shepard]

Cant Rally only bring back slayed models? With the new rule Pinks and Blues no longer count as slayed so can you even bring them back?

[Grimrock]

13 minutes ago, Chaos Shepard said:

Cant Rally only bring back slayed models? With the new rule Pinks and Blues no longer count as slayed so can you even bring them back?

Yup, unless you go the Petty Vengeance route and don't split. If you're splitting then you can only rally brimstones. 

[Jabbuk]

2 hours ago, Zappgrot said:

The warscroll changed completely whit the FAQ.  Horror's are no longer wizards, The standard does not bring back models. You can no longer give wounds to brims before blues.  You need to replace models intermediately when they are slain (instead afther all the wounds are aplied)  This pretty much makes bringing back pink back impossible until the moment your running out of brims.  Altough i gues rally is going to be really good for them in that case.  

I believe his comment was posted 3 days ago, before the FAQ release

[TimeToWaste85]

I  posted this in the Slaanesh side (they were talking about it, and I’m mostly a Slaanesh player). You can’t pick to wound blues if there are pinks left. You can’t damage brims if blues are left. What if the unit is purchased only with pinks and brims? Wipe the brims first, have the pinks survive. Ablative wounds until the end. Can make the unit last a lot longer. And if brims die and you bring models back…why not bring back pinks? Loophole? I think so. And RAW, i think it works 

Edited August 28, 2021 by TimeToWaste85

[Grimrock]

19 minutes ago, TimeToWaste85 said:

I  posted this in the Slaanesh side (they were talking about it, and I’m mostly a Slaanesh player). You can’t pick to wound blues if there are pinks left. You can’t damage brims if blues are left. What if the unit is purchased only with pinks and brims? Wipe the brims first, have the pinks survive. Ablative wounds until the end. Can make the unit last a lot longer. And if brims die and you bring models back…why not bring back pinks? Loophole? I think so. And RAW, i think it works 

Fortunately that won't really work. The first problem is you'll lose your battleline status immediately if you include any horrors other than pink. Second, a model has to be slain to return it and the new warscroll specifically states that a splitting pink doesn't count as slain. So even if you could return models due to brimstones dying you'll never be able to return a pink. Finally, the biggest issue is that there's no way to pay for a brimstone horror if there are any pinks in the unit, the only time you get a reduced cost is if you take only blues or only brimstones. So you're paying for the points of a full pink horror but only putting a brimstone in the unit.

[Jabbuk]

How do you guys feel about our Endless Spells? 

I have 120pts left to fill up on my Guild of Summoners list and I'm not sure what to fill it up with. Right now I have the Umbral Spell Portal and Cogs for a total of 115pts, but I ordered the Tzeentch Endless Spells and I'm just not sure how to fit those in. What do you guys think?

For example, I could take the Daemonic Simulacrum for 90pts and leave 30pts on the table but I'm not sure if it's worth it.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Paniere]

Anybody knows why they removed the HORROR keyword from the new Horrors of Tzeentch warscroll? Does this mean that they can't be used anymore in those warscroll batallions  requiring it? Ofc in those games where WB are still allowed

[Blitzd]

19 hours ago, Paniere said:

Anybody knows why they removed the HORROR keyword from the new Horrors of Tzeentch warscroll? Does this mean that they can't be used anymore in those warscroll batallions  requiring it? Ofc in those games where WB are still allowed

Yes and no. Had this discussion with a friend the other day, all changes are for competitive play, casual play isn't considered in faqs and changes as if you're playing open play, or just casual with friends, you can pretty much just do what you want. So yes, it means you can't use them in warscroll battalions, but no because if you're using them, then it's not matched play, so as long as both players agree, you can still use them. 

[CarkFish]

How are people feeling about the change to Cogs?... Are we still taking it in our hosts Arcanum or do we have other idea's? ... For me... at 45pts, its the cheapest single cast in the game

[AaronWilson]

Question, I see a lot of Hosts Arcanum lists with two spells per wizard, am I being blind as I can't see that in the allegiance abilities that allows your wizards to choose two from the lore rather then one?  

[Marcvs]

5 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

Question, I see a lot of Hosts Arcanum lists with two spells per wizard, am I being blind as I can't see that in the allegiance abilities that allows your wizards to choose two from the lore rather then one?  

It's probably because they took the spell lore enhancement (27.3.4

[Adammck66]

Is there a way to make a Mortal Tzeentch list work? Kairic Acolytes/Tzaangors and no allies? Love the Karic models

Pyrofane any good? Maybe guild of summoners for a free Lord of Change?

Its the only daemon I own but I struggle to make a list with that in it. Other heroes I have are Ogroid, Disc Magister, Shaman and Gaunt.

Thanks

 

 

[R3n3]

7 hours ago, Adammck66 said:

Is there a way to make a Mortal Tzeentch list work? Kairic Acolytes/Tzaangors and no allies? Love the Karic models

Pyrofane any good? Maybe guild of summoners for a free Lord of Change?

Its the only daemon I own but I struggle to make a list with that in it. Other heroes I have are Ogroid, Disc Magister, Shaman and Gaunt.

Thanks

 

 

Exactly what I wanted to ask

I currently have 40 kairics painted up and I'm eager to put them onto the tabletop.

From what I've read is that the more kairics you have in a pyrofane cult, the better. From what you've written I'll probably would try something like this:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult
- Grand Strategy: Prized Sorcery
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Lord of Change (420)*
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (150)*
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Tzaangor Shaman (160)**
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (135)*

Battleline
20 x Kairic Acolytes (250)**
- 14x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 6x Cursed Glaives
- Reinforced x 1
20 x Kairic Acolytes (250)**
- 14x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 6x Cursed Glaives
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (215)*

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (200)**
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (200)**

Core Battalions
*Warlord
**Battle Regiment

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 2 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
Drops: 5
 

I randomly picked spells now because everyone has its favourites and I don't know if other battalions would offer more for this list (I'm sure more experienced players can help us out here ). I'm thinking of using the Enlightened as Bodyguard for the Kairic Acolytes and charge whatever comes close so the Kairics can continue to fire their bolts and dish out mortal wounds. The pinks offer some staying power on objectives (even after the nerf) and work a little more independent. The Fatemaster is buffing the Kairics shooting even more and the LoC is just a beast on its own.

 

But that's just my personal take and haven't playtested this list, so please take this not too serious but as a direction I would build around.

 

Have a great day.

 

[CarkFish]

On 9/6/2021 at 1:05 PM, Adammck66 said:

Is there a way to make a Mortal Tzeentch list work? Kairic Acolytes/Tzaangors and no allies? Love the Karic models

Pyrofane any good? Maybe guild of summoners for a free Lord of Change?

Its the only daemon I own but I struggle to make a list with that in it. Other heroes I have are Ogroid, Disc Magister, Shaman and Gaunt.

Thanks

 

 

I'd love to run skyfires myself... but there isn't really any support in the sub factions from what I can see

[Ganigumo]

On 9/6/2021 at 8:05 AM, Adammck66 said:

Is there a way to make a Mortal Tzeentch list work? Kairic Acolytes/Tzaangors and no allies? Love the Karic models

Pyrofane any good? Maybe guild of summoners for a free Lord of Change?

Its the only daemon I own but I struggle to make a list with that in it. Other heroes I have are Ogroid, Disc Magister, Shaman and Gaunt.

Thanks

 

 

Its a bit tragic that the daemon side is so strong, because the mortal side has been kind of weak since the new book dropped and they wouldn't dare buff them when the army is as good as it is.

I play with tzaangors pretty often and they feel overcosted. You basically need to run a reinforced unit because of how their extra attack works, and they're only good if you can use it. Lack of any synergy for them, despite 2 expansion books (broken realms & wrath of the everchosen) is a bit ridiculous. Enlightened work as decent hammers, and skyfires can be decent skirmishers if you protect them.

Pyrofane wasn't too bad in 2e, but the 25 point increase, and loss of the battalion to shoot twice really hurts them, plus its a CP heavy build. Should be fine for casual games though

Guild of summoners just took a hit from the cog changes, but MSU kairics are some of the cheapest spells you can get. Probably good for casual games but its pretty inconsistent and you're really hinging on getting that LoC on t1.

 

Cult of the transient form continues to be awful, we lost the awful battalion that synergized with it, the ranges are way too restrictive (the kairic model (not unit) that dies needs to be within 9" of a tzaangor unit), the ability only triggers in the combat phase now (I think this change came in aos3 since I remember discussions about cheesing with a bunch of CP and killing your own kairics, which was still awful but funny), Kairics suck in melee, 3.0 makes it so we can't spam the CA to get a better chance of getting a tzaangor. It also has the worst artifact and command trait in the entire book for some reason. Its insane, and definitely a top contender for worst subfaction in the entire game.

Edited September 7, 2021 by Ganigumo