AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[NinthMusketeer]

Healing d3 every turn from heroic recovery and stomping for d3 MWs every turn helps considerably, enough that a LoC can do fine if he avoids dedicated combat units. But it's always going to be a secondary role. Probably more useful is simply roaring to prevent command use, and/or flying around to break faction terrain.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Healing d3 every turn from heroic recovery and stomping for d3 MWs every turn helps considerably, enough that a LoC can do fine if he avoids dedicated combat units. But it's always going to be a secondary role. Probably more useful is simply roaring to prevent command use, and/or flying around to break faction terrain.

LoC loses out on MWs when he gets bracketed so why would you put him in Melee to deal a measly D3 mortals?

[NinthMusketeer]

When you play as much AoS as I have you lose count of the number of matches decided by d3 points of damage.

[Sinfullyvannila]

44 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

When you play as much AoS as I have you lose count of the number of matches decided by d3 points of damage.

Ok Senpai, but you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. You're cutting into your Infernal Gateway when something breathes on the LoC. 

[NinthMusketeer]

Ok, let me be more blunt.

Just because you do not understand the tactical use, does not mean it does not exist.

Edited July 16, 2021 by NinthMusketeer

[Sinfullyvannila]

14 minutes ago, NinthMusketeer said:

Ok, let me be more blunt.

Just because you do not understand the tactical use, does not mean it does not exist.

It's primarily useful on getting extra damage out of a unit that already needs to be in combat. It gets less useful the more you want the unit out of combat, and the more expensive the unit is. LoC is a particularly bad candidate for it because its an expensive unit that you don't need to have in Melee to do damage, and don't want to have in there because they are very fragile. Even that aside, it loses value because almost everything in that army has the ability to do D3 mortal wounds.

It's only practical if you can wipe out a hero, but the edge cases where it's going to be safe to do that makes me reluctant to even bring that up since it's a good chance your opponent is going to try to bait you out with that.

[CountryMou3e]

On 7/6/2021 at 2:36 PM, AaronWilson said:

After speaking to some playtesters on twitter - this is how I will be playing the rule. 

First thing - any model that flees cannot split and split again.

Any model that flees can be rallied, lifeswarmed or fold reality. 

You can never have more then 10 pinks, 20 blues & 20 brims in one unit.

If I start with 10 pinks, and get to a situation where I can have 5 pinks and 10 blues, I can attempt to rally / fold reality / emerald lifeswarm the other 5 pinks back into the unit. 

This is how I understand it too and how I will play it. 👌

[Blitzd]

On 7/16/2021 at 3:54 PM, CountryMou3e said:

This is how I understand it too and how I will play it. 👌

Sadly it seems TOs around the world are in agreement to house rule how horrors work, despite there being no rules conflict. 

Cannot have more models than your starting number of models other than with sasa. 

Wounds roll over to blues when pinks are slain, despite being the opposite of what the rules say. 

 

[GrimDork]

After seeing the new 40k thousand sons character I really want the swirly/screamers bit of the sculpt to add it to a host arcanum hero with the fanged circlet.

[Ganigumo]

6 hours ago, Blitzd said:

Sadly it seems TOs around the world are in agreement to house rule how horrors work, despite there being no rules conflict. 

Cannot have more models than your starting number of models other than with sasa. 

Wounds roll over to blues when pinks are slain, despite being the opposite of what the rules say. 

 

The rule is just broken.

Maximum unit size isn't actually defined anywhere in the rules (or the errata) so we have to assume it's the starting size since that's what is implied in the rules and errata. This part needs a "house rule" because its just missing from the rules.

Slain models:

Quote

14.2 Slain Models
Once the number of wounds allocated to a model equals its Wounds characteristic the model is slain and you cannot allocate any more wounds to it. A slain model is removed from play (see 1.2.2) after all of the wounds cause to its unit have been allocated and all attacks that inflicted damage on the unit have been resolved

This section means the model is slain before it is removed from play.

Split and Split Again:
 

Quote

Each time an Iridescent Horror or Pink Horror model from a friendly unit with this ability is slain, you can add 2 Blue Horror models to that unit after removing the slain model. Each time a Blue Horror model from a friendly unit with this ability is slain, you can add 1 Brimstone Horrors model to that unit after removing the slain model. Set up the additional models one at a time within 1" of the position that the slain model had occupied. The additional models can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if the position that the slain model had occupied or any other models from the slain model’s unit are within 3" of that enemy unit. If you cannot set up the additional models in this way, they are removed from play (they do not count as being slain).

Split and Split again triggers when the model is slain, not when it is removed from play.

RAW this would mean that blues/brims get added to the unit as damage is applied to the unit, since the pinks/blues are being slain. However, this also means that if there is no room to place the model within 1" of the position the slain model had occupied (which will happen because of how coherency forces you to clump up your models) you just don't get to place them at all.

So RAW you need to place the blues/brims before the pinks/blues are removed, but they can seemingly go over their max size for any reason (including healing).

[Blitzd]

On 7/20/2021 at 7:39 AM, Ganigumo said:

The rule is just broken.

Maximum unit size isn't actually defined anywhere in the rules (or the errata) so we have to assume it's the starting size since that's what is implied in the rules and errata. This part needs a "house rule" because its just missing from the rules.
 

Why do we "have to assume" that? Why would you assume the undefined maximum size is the same as the "unit size" listed when you can spend reinforcement points to increase the size. By your definition, if you spend reinforcement points to increase the unit over its listed "unit size", all those models are lost. Without an FAQ, we would have to assume maximum size is how many times a unit can be reinforced, so maximum size is 30. Yes, that would be broken. Yes it needs an FAQ. Yes how TOs are running it is pure house rule assumtions.

On 7/20/2021 at 7:39 AM, Ganigumo said:

Each time an Iridescent Horror or Pink Horror model from a friendly unit with this ability is slain, you can add 2 Blue Horror models to that unit after removing the slain model. Each time a Blue Horror model from a friendly unit with this ability is slain, you can add 1 Brimstone Horrors model to that unit after removing the slain model. Set up the additional models one at a time within 1" of the position that the slain model had occupied. The additional models can only be set up within 3" of an enemy unit if the position that the slain model had occupied or any other models from the slain model’s unit are within 3" of that enemy unit. If you cannot set up the additional models in this way, they are removed from play (they do not count as being slain).

Comeon buddy, is it really too much to ask to read the whole sentence?

[Ganigumo]

5 hours ago, Blitzd said:

Why do we "have to assume" that? Why would you assume the undefined maximum size is the same as the "unit size" listed when you can spend reinforcement points to increase the size. By your definition, if you spend reinforcement points to increase the unit over its listed "unit size", all those models are lost. Without an FAQ, we would have to assume maximum size is how many times a unit can be reinforced, so maximum size is 30. Yes, that would be broken. Yes it needs an FAQ. Yes how TOs are running it is pure house rule assumtions.

Comeon buddy, is it really too much to ask to read the whole sentence?

Yeah I know now it says after removing the slain model, but that made sense in 2.0's rules since the model was removed when it was slain, now it isn't removed until all damage has been inflicted so the sequence is broken. Like what happens if the unit is destroyed before you place the blues/brims? you can't add models to a destroyed unit, and there's no rule saying you remove the models one at a time, so another reading could be if you kill all the pinks in one go nothing splits because by the time you're finally resolving the ability the unit has already been destroyed.

Horrors just don't work RAW period. It's not an interpretation issue, and TO's either need a ruling or need to ban them. I think the middle ground they chose is fine until we get an actual ruling, as literally nobody in good faith should be interpreting horrors to be mini morathi's or not getting to split at all if everything is slain. The rule on how healing works is also understandable when you consider they had a point drop over an edition change despite across the board increases across armies, higher than average increases in their own faction, and they were one of the best units from that faction (and one of the most efficient units in the entire game). The point drop here was obviously to compensate for something they lost, and honestly the interaction between healing and horrors had always been toxic.

Starting size is more likely the intent because "max reinforced size" isn't a static number that's defined anywhere (it's also variable and would lead to situations like summoned units having lower maximum sizes), It could be the max reinforced size, but it would be bad design.
 

[Blitzd]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Yeah I know now it says after removing the slain model

So then why are you saying it doesn't? 

The TOs rules are still based on their interpretation and go against what the core rules state or are their interpretation of an undefined word that can be interpreted a few different ways. I don't even know what you're trying to argue at this point other than your interpretation is right and everyone that doesn't agree is wrong just because. 

[Ganigumo]

4 hours ago, Blitzd said:

So then why are you saying it doesn't? 

The TOs rules are still based on their interpretation and go against what the core rules state or are their interpretation of an undefined word that can be interpreted a few different ways. I don't even know what you're trying to argue at this point other than your interpretation is right and everyone that doesn't agree is wrong just because. 

I've been reading through and thinking about the rules more as we've talked.

RAW:

The horror ability triggers when the model is slain, but happens when the model is removed from play(this is poorly written for 3.0).

 

The model isn't removed from play until all damage is allocated (so damage shouldn't bleed through)

 

There is uncertainty in whether slain models are removed 1 at a time, or all at the same time, since the rules don't specify.

 

If models are removed one at a time we add the blues/brims as we remove models.

 

If models are removed as a whole we remove the slain models as a group, then add the blues/brims, but if we're forced to remove the entire unit (i.e a unit of 10 pinks takes 10 damage) we can't actually add the blues/brims because the unit has been destroyed.

 

These rules just don't function RAW, and both possible outcomes are terrible. Getting our splitting without damage bleed pushes horrors into one of the most overpowered scrolls in aos history (not that they weren't already amazing), and the other makes them worthless.

 

Its also clearly not how they're intended to function based on how they're pointed. Horrors with no damage bleed should easily be over 300 points(possibly as high as 350). Horrors that get wiped out if the current models go down should probably drop under 200. Horrors that function identically to their aos2 version should be ~250 (just based roughly off tzeentch's average unit cost increase), but they're 215, so GW obviously thought something about them got worse enough to justify a decrease that even stuff like kairics and tzaangors weren't spared from.

 

Like seriously LITERALLY nobody should even WANT to play the horrors as RAW in their current state, they're either awful or make old release slaanesh look fair.

 

TO's aren't even interpreting the rules here, they're coming up with a solution that isn't cancerous since GW hasn't addressed the issue and there's no way you could hold an event and use the RAW in this case. "2.0 rules with worse healing" is a pretty fair interpretation of RAI in lieu of an official errata as the change to how horrors fundamentally function seems unintentional, and even in 2.0 healing horrors was pretty disgusting and probably should've been addressed by GW at some point.

[Paniere]

A couple of rules question that arose during yesterday's game: 

1) Kairos used his once in a game skill to turn a successful opponent's charge roll of 3-1 into 1-1. Opponent wanted to use a command point to reroll the charge but I argued that that dice couldn't be rerolled. Could he have rerolled only the other dice anyway? We thought he couldn't since , in order to reroll a charge , he should have rerolled both dices and one wasn't rerollable.

2) The changecaster used his once in a game skill to cast a spell with 3 dices, but he failed. I had the chance to reroll. Should I have rerolled 3D6 or 2D6 only?

Thanks for the help!

[Sinfullyvannila]

21 hours ago, Paniere said:

A couple of rules question that arose during yesterday's game: 

1) Kairos used his once in a game skill to turn a successful opponent's charge roll of 3-1 into 1-1. Opponent wanted to use a command point to reroll the charge but I argued that that dice couldn't be rerolled. Could he have rerolled only the other dice anyway? We thought he couldn't since , in order to reroll a charge , he should have rerolled both dices and one wasn't rerollable.

2) The changecaster used his once in a game skill to cast a spell with 3 dices, but he failed. I had the chance to reroll. Should I have rerolled 3D6 or 2D6 only?

Thanks for the help!

1) It explicitly stats that Kairos ability cannot ve rerolled or modified

2) A casting roll is all the dice unless its an explicit exception.

[Blitzd]

On 7/24/2021 at 8:04 PM, Paniere said:

A couple of rules question that arose during yesterday's game: 

1) Kairos used his once in a game skill to turn a successful opponent's charge roll of 3-1 into 1-1. Opponent wanted to use a command point to reroll the charge but I argued that that dice couldn't be rerolled. Could he have rerolled only the other dice anyway? We thought he couldn't since , in order to reroll a charge , he should have rerolled both dices and one wasn't rerollable.

2) The changecaster used his once in a game skill to cast a spell with 3 dices, but he failed. I had the chance to reroll. Should I have rerolled 3D6 or 2D6 only?

Thanks for the help!

With kairos, I'd say no rerolls, as you are only replacing one dice, it says rolls that have been modified cannot be rolled, so even though one dice hasn't been modified, the roll as a whole has

[Jabbuk]

On 7/19/2021 at 5:39 PM, Ganigumo said:

 

 

Edited July 26, 2021 by Jabbuk
Irrelevent

[Bregor]

On 7/24/2021 at 5:04 AM, Paniere said:

A couple of rules question that arose during yesterday's game: 

1) Kairos used his once in a game skill to turn a successful opponent's charge roll of 3-1 into 1-1. Opponent wanted to use a command point to reroll the charge but I argued that that dice couldn't be rerolled. Could he have rerolled only the other dice anyway? We thought he couldn't since , in order to reroll a charge , he should have rerolled both dices and one wasn't rerollable.

 

The timing on this one gets a bit weird in 3rd edition, but I will agree that it can't be rerolled, but for a different reason.

Ref. 1.5.4 and 1.5.5, the order of dice rolling goes: roll -> abilities that set or change dice results -> modifiers (+/-). Therefore, the dice could be rerolled *before* Kairos changes them, but not afterwards. (Kairos' ability text referring to the changed dice not being able to be rolled is a relic of 2nd edition, and probably should have been FAQed but what can you do)

[Jabbuk]

Hi guys, 

So I'm a new Tzeentch player, still building my army. I'm trying to aim for a 1500pts list with some models I like and from the Battlebox I bought last Xmas.

Here's the list in a nutshell. I would play Guild of Summoners to try to get a LoC as soon as possible on the table and if it ever dies, I could have another one coming down the road. I'm going for an Arcanite list mostly. Can anyone point out of there's any blatant flaws in there? Thanks!

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
- Grand Strategy:
- Triumphs:
Fatemaster (135)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (255)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (250)
- Reinforced x 1
10 x Tzaangors (195)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (200)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (140)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Reinforced Units: 1 / 3
Allies: 0 / 300
Wounds: 87
 

I'd use the Blue Horrors to screen and Gaunt Summoner would summon some pinks. Perhaps I should do 2x10 Kairic? Probably add Skyfires? I dunno, looking for feedback here

Edited July 28, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Gesundheit]

Hey,

the Gaunt is not that good anymore because he just summons 5 pinks now.

That means you only get 107,5 points back. I would cut him an play a changecaster.🤷🏼‍♂️

[KoganStyle]

 

2 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Hey,

the Gaunt is not that good anymore because he just summons 5 pinks now.

That means you only get 107,5 points back. I would cut him an play a changecaster.🤷🏼‍♂️

I disagree, they need the Gaunt because it is a 2 cast wizard and they need 9 spells to get the fate pts for the LoC. If anything the list needs more casting to reliably hit 9 by turn 2.

[Jabbuk]

Thanks guys for the input. In a magic focused list like this that is hero heavy, where does the damage come from? 

I'm used to see two kinds of list, a daemon ranged list and a heavy caster list but I always wonder how do those lists kill units, etc. I'm sorry if this is an obvious question, I'm used to play melee oriented lists.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Sinfullyvannila]

7 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Thanks guys for the input. In a magic focused list like this that is hero heavy, where does the damage come from? 

I'm used to see two kinds of list, a daemon ranged list and a heavy caster list but I always wonder how do those lists kill units, etc. I'm sorry if this is an obvious question, I'm used to play melee oriented lists.

They don't do massive damage, but it does enough so that they lose models while we gain them from our splits. 

[Jabbuk]

So I've revised my list after some of you guys' comments. Overall I think I don't need a Fatemaster.

My goal is to reach 9 summon points asap so I've switched for a Magister on Disc for another casting. If I'm lucky, I could even cast twice with him. This allows me to add a unit of Kairic Acolytes and also get an extra cast. Overall if I'm lucky I could even get a LoC turn 1, given in not unbound and I get to cast all my spells. The Ogroid Thaumaturge would be my General as he'll stay with the blocks of melee units, while the Magister will bounce around with Enlightened and Tzaangor Shaman.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (255)
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (150)
Tzaangor Shaman (160)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (165)
- General
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (125)
10 x Tzaangors (195)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (200)

Total: 1500 / 1500
Reinforced Units: 0 / 3
Allies: 0 / 300
Wounds: 87