AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grotruk]

And Host Duplicitous ? Pink + Chaos spawn summoners (Kairos + magister) could still be a solid base.

[Ganigumo]

Hosts duplicitous is fine, horrors seem just as good as they've always been and in general damage seems to have gone down a bit thanks to the coherency changes, defensive abilities, and reinforcement limits. Loss of changehost hurts but big blobs of horrors are still going to be great at holding objectives.

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, Azog Thraka said:

Where do we see tzeentch demons in the competitive rankings after the FAQ?  Mid-tier?  If someone were just getting started with tzeentch, would the start collecting box be a good place to start?

You're better off with the Broken Realms box since it comes with Blues and Brims.

Tzeentch is going to be top tier unless they push Horrors up to like 400 points for 10. Destiny Dice are always going to be powerful too.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Carnelian]

i have a game on saturday and i just have no idea what to run anymore! everything is so expensive!

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 7/6/2021 at 4:53 PM, Carnelian said:

i have a game on saturday and i just have no idea what to run anymore! everything is so expensive!

I think what I would try would be:

Kairos 435

Blue Scribes 135

Fatemaster 135

20 pinks 430

10 Pinks 215

10 Tzaangors 195

Geminis 80

Lifeswarm 60

That puts you at 1685

And I would either go:

3 Flamers

1 Exalted

Or

2 Exalted Flamer

Sub Ogroid for Scribes

Or

3 Tzaangors Skyfires

Minstealer Spyranx or Cockatrice

 

EDIT: I actually dont think Emerald lifeswarm has much use so its probably better to just brink a second 10 of pinks rather than the Tzaangors.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[herpaderp]

I have a tournament coming this Saturday, and I have been running a version of the Archaon Arcanum list for 2.0. Here is what I am thinking of taking:

Archaon - 830

Kairos - 435

Chaos Sorcerer Lord - 115 (General)

10x Pink Horrors - 215

10x Pink Horrors - 215

3x Screamers - 100

Spell Portals - 70

This leaves me with 20 points left over. Should I change anything?

[shalvan]

Can coalition units be generals? I don't think so. If you swap a unit of pinks for screamers you can take a changecaster and end up with even 2000, then the changecaster can be the general.

Edited July 7, 2021 by shalvan

[herpaderp]

I think you are correct, and he cannot be the general. I am not sure about dropping the horrors for screamers, as that will weaken my objective game. Do I still need the Sorcerer Lord? I could just trade him for a change caster.

[Ganigumo]

You'd have 135 points left over once the chaos sorcerer lord is removed. (115 + extra 20)
Blue scribes would fit (although you wouldn't get an artefact or CT which is the problem)

You could swap out the sorc lord for a changecaster, fatemaster or Magister (on foot) without making any other changes.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Isn't the normal Chaos Lord's CA better than CSL for Archaon?

[herpaderp]

Its more for oracular visions and demonic power. The CA on the normal Chaos Lord is very good for Archaon.

[AaronWilson]

Hi guys, I've made a thread in regards to Horrors of Tzeentch units and the interactions with rally, icon bearer & fold reality. Would appreciate your input. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, AaronWilson said:

Hi guys, I've made a thread in regards to Horrors of Tzeentch units and the interactions with rally, icon bearer & fold reality. Would appreciate your input. 

The more I think about it, the more I think there are no interactions. SaSA is the only exception to the size limit, and the only point in using the other rules is to recover models from edge cases like auto-slay mechanics, if you choose to use Petty Vengeance, or in the case of the Icon Bearer just to autopass battle shock with DD.

[Gilby]

I've probably gotten tangled up in changes... but how does Archaon get added to a Tzeentch army now? He's not in the faction table. He's above ally points. He's got the Khorne and Nurgle keywords so can't be coalition right?

 

EDIT - Never mind! Just read StD errata! 

Page 88 – Archaon Add: ‘WARMASTER: This unit can be included in a Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch, Maggotkin of Nurgle or Hedonites of Slaanesh army. If it is, it is treated as a general even if it is not the model picked to be the army’s general, and you can still use the army’s allegiance abilities even if this unit is not from the army’s faction.’

Edited July 9, 2021 by Gilby

[Malakithe]

I need list ideas for magic damage heavy HostsDup and GoS

[Paniere]

1 hour ago, Malakithe said:

I need list ideas for magic damage heavy HostsDup and GoS

COGS!

then cogs and you are set

[Malakithe]

2 hours ago, Paniere said:

COGS!

then cogs and you are set

So 2k points of COGS? Got it! haha

[shalvan]

22 hours ago, Malakithe said:

I need list ideas for magic damage heavy HostsDup and GoS

I tried the attached list in Hosts Arcanum. Throws around spells like it's nobody's business.

DoubleBirbCEWrlrd.pdf

[Gesundheit]

Hi guys,

i had a small game against Lumineth at the weekend.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
- Grand Strategy: Hold the Line
- Triumphs: 

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (135) in Command Entourage
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (135) in Command Entourage
Fatemaster (135)
Lord of Change (420) in Command Entourage
The Blue Scribes (135)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (215) in Hunters of the Heartlands
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (215) in Hunters of the Heartlands
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (215)

Units
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)

Endless Spells & Invocations
Emerald Lifeswarm (60)
Chronomantic Cogs (45)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 0 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 83

I just wanted to test something else and I like it spell heavy.👍

I won’t by a few points because my enemy made 2 big mistakes. (Left his home objective and I took it with my screamer, charged into my horrors cause he thought he could kill them instead of plying the objective game) Tzeentch is realy Hard because of the point hike, but you can still win games with them. Besides that the third edition is a lot of fun.👍😊 

now I got a rule question:

Cogs give 1 extra spell in 6“, can I channel pink fire twice with each unit of horrors?🧐

the horrors won’t get +2 to hit, but I just look for the spellcount!

[Charlo]

Guild of summoners sounds very cool and a fun way to make up for the points increases - how much summoning did you manage to do in the game?

[Gesundheit]

5 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

Cogs give 1 extra spell in 6“, can I channel pink fire twice with each unit of horrors?🧐

the horrors won’t get +2 to hit, but I just look for the spellcount!

With that in mind, we didn’t played it like that but I think it is the right ruling.

I cast 2 LoC and could have Cast a third one if I would own 4!😅

 

[Grimrock]

6 hours ago, Gesundheit said:

now I got a rule question:

Cogs give 1 extra spell in 6“, can I channel pink fire twice with each unit of horrors?🧐

the horrors won’t get +2 to hit, but I just look for the spellcount!

I thought the same thing when I went through the rules, but unfortunately the Disciples of Tzeentch FAQ prevents it:

Q: Can the same Horrors of Tzeentch or Kairic Acolytes unit use the Chronomantic Cogs to cast Channelled Pink Fire or Gestalt Sorcery more than once in the same hero phase?
A: No

Edited July 12, 2021 by Grimrock

[Acrozatarim]

Played our first 3rd ed games this weekend. I ran a 1k Tzeentch list vs a 1k OBR list. Last time I played him I'd tried out caster heavy at 1k and he'd gone Null Myriad, the casters didn't really work well at that small game size and Null Myriad blunted them even further, so this time I went for a shooting heavy list - especially given all the wailing and gnashing of teeth over the predicted new shooting meta that's been going on.

I took a not-very-optimized Eternal Conflagration list due to what miniatures I had assembled and available:

1 Fatemaster (general)

1 Chaos Lord (just a fun pick - no synergy with the rest of the army, but I just got the lovely old Aekold Helbrass model)

1 Exalted Flamer

6 Flamers

20 Kairic Acolytes

My opponent brought a Petrifex Elite list with a liege kavalos, the little support caster, 20 mortek guard, 5 cavalry, and a gothizzar harvester.

 

So, first up, our experience with the new rules (in this game, and in a game the other guys played of OBR vs new Stormcast afterwards) was really good. It definitely felt like there was more decision-making and better balance overall, with battle tactics working better than I had expected as a game element. Grand strategy felt tacked-on and largely pointless, though.

We played the tectonic shift battleplan, and we finished up at the end of turn 3 with my opponent conceding to me (we wanted to have some lunch, but he figured that I probably had the victory). There wasn't a lot left on the table by then - the liege kavalos, the mortek caster, my fatemaster, the chaos lord, and the exalted flamer).

The Fatemaster was of course an absolute linchpin of the force, as ever, although the necessity of feeding him a command point every turn left me really feeling the pressure on the other CP - I got lucky and never got double-turned but that also meant I was going first each round, so only the base 2 CPs each round. The 4+ extra CP heroic action also didn't look kindly on me.

The Flamers backed by Fatemaster were the MVP, unsurprisingly. The sheer amount of damage they can do makes up for the poor Rend, and they were key in blasting the Mortek Guard off the table when my opponent poorly positioned his harvester and couldn't just 4+ the models back again. They also made good use of Unleash Hell when the harvester charged them to bracket it, meaning it took 2 combat rounds to murder them rather than just the 1. The new +1 to Wound Triumph worked very nicely with them for a crucial turn of shooting.

By comparison, the Exalted Flamer was just kinda... there. It was the only thing with any effective Rend on shooting due to the Petrifex Elite trait, but I couldn't squeeze much out of it.

The Chaos Lord did a lot better than I expected, mainly because this list had no other meaningful Mortal Wounds output. He chopped right through the cavalry with his command ability while they were engaged with the Kairics, and was well positioned to have a go at the liege kavalos too right afterwards. The Kairics, like the Exalted Flamer, were just there. Their shooting did just a few wounds to the mortek guard, and their main achievement was to roadblock the liege and cavalry for two combat rounds. That was useful, but here's the thing - I love the mortal side of Tzeentch, and I figured that given the big points increase on Kairics maybe GW knew something I didn't, but at the end of the day I kept on thinking that 10 Pink Horrors could basically have done everything the Kairics did but better, and for less points.

Overall, the shooting worked well, but the sheer lack of anything meaningfully resilient in melee meant I was under pressure by my opponent's advance for much of the game, and it didn't feel like I was dominant - had my opponent gotten the doubleturn I'd have probably ended up in a lot more trouble. Unleash Hell was a useful tactical tool rather than some sort of I-win button for shooting. Having a source of Mortal Wound output is important, and I'd have been better off going Pyrofane Cult than Eternal Conflagration against Petrifex as a result. Conflag would definitely do more vs Null Myriad, though.

 

I should soon have the models to run a 2k list for the first time - probably Eternal Conflagration or Guild of Summoners. Looking forward to the next match!

[Acrozatarim]

What are peoples' thoughts about Lord of Change load-outs?

I initially gravitated towards the Rod of Sorcery since the idea of getting my expensive caster lord into melee felt like too much of a risk, but now I'm wondering if the high Rend on the Baleful Sword might actually be worth wading in to combat with, especially with the new heroic and monster actions.

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 hours ago, Acrozatarim said:

What are peoples' thoughts about Lord of Change load-outs?

I initially gravitated towards the Rod of Sorcery since the idea of getting my expensive caster lord into melee felt like too much of a risk, but now I'm wondering if the high Rend on the Baleful Sword might actually be worth wading in to combat with, especially with the new heroic and monster actions.

I wouldn't pay points for a Lord of Change anymore unless they got another cast; and if they get summoned in you take the one that's right for the job(Sword if your target's save is characteristic is 4 or higher).

You're never going to get efficient out of a LoC in Melee Combat. He's got the output of 1 Rockguts Troggoths model and less than 2 Fellwaters at almost triple the price without any sort of durability.

Edited July 15, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila