AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

Honestly the whole "maximum unit size" needs to be clarified. The rules only describe Minimum Unit Sizes and reinforcement limits. Is the maximum size the number you bring at the start? Or is it the number at the reinforcement limit. In conversational English, context would make it the reinforcement limit; but we all seen to intuit it as the size you put on the table.

[mmimzie]

8 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Honestly the whole "maximum unit size" needs to be clarified. The rules only describe Minimum Unit Sizes and reinforcement limits. Is the maximum size the number you bring at the start? Or is it the number at the reinforcement limit. In conversational English, context would make it the reinforcement limit; but we all seen to intuit it as the size you put on the table.

It wouldn't be a warhammer set of rules if it didn't need clarification. 

[Paniere]

Had my first game vs ogor Mawtribes, overall good feelings for the new edition. I suspect that cogs will be nerfed sooner than later. Despite rolling 4 times double 1s in less than 40 spell castings, I had 27 fate points in turn 3 , making board control by summoning very strong

[Creamster]

The Blades of Khorne article on War Com hints at BoC being available to pick (1 in every 4). Does this mean tzeentch might get access to cheaper Tzaangor from BoC?

[MitGas]

On 7/1/2021 at 10:52 AM, Creamster said:

The Blades of Khorne article on War Com hints at BoC being available to pick (1 in every 4). Does this mean tzeentch might get access to cheaper Tzaangor from BoC?

In theory one would think so (was my first idea as well), although Tzeentch and BoC are not allies anymore - I guess they‘ll state somewhere that if a unit has costs in two different tomes (and your own), you‘ll be forced to use the higher point costs and the lower-costed unit only works in the context of the tome it‘s in. 
 

I‘m also unhappy with Enlightened getting an extra tax. They‘re decent but certainly not what makes Tzeentch top tier.

With Slaves units now being affected by Tzeentch abilites though, maybe there are some new cool abilites now… haven‘t looked into that yet.

The better and cheaper Gaunt Summoner from S2D should work at least though!

[Creamster]

Khorne and Beasts don't look like allies either.  Blades of Khorne have maggot kin and std. As their only allies. Anyways I think we have to wait and see what FAQ brings as the BoC tzaangor points are really interesting for tzeentch (even if they potentially lose access to tzeentch DD).

[Jabbuk]

The new FAQ is out.

It specifies that Split and Split again allows to exceed maximum unit size. There's also new scrolls for our endless spells.

[Chikout]

44 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

The new FAQ is out.

It specifies that Split and Split again allows to exceed maximum unit size. There's also new scrolls for our endless spells.

As that rule specifies split and split again, you can't really above starting size. 

[Paniere]

Horrors got nerfed , hence the point decrease. Despite they can split and split again reaching the double unit size, they cannot benefit anymore of other means of unit size increase as before. Basically, a horror unit will always be at its maximum unit size (the starting number (10,20,30) up to its double (20,40,60). Hence, using Emerald lifeswarm, icon bearer, fold reality or Rally will give no benefits. In particular I think they missed to rework the icon bearer, 99% of situations it will be useless. Also, models removed from play due to a failed battleshock test, will not split. Still a solid unit but not OP anyomore

[Ganigumo]

Horrors can still go over max size with split and it looks like they can still be healed based on the current wording, models that flee count as having been slain (just like in aos 2) so rally isn't a pain anymore, although they've been VERY explicit about horrors not splitting when they flee.

Horrors look to be in a pretty good spot.

 

Cult of the transient form got it's teeth kicked in again though. They have no such exception, so now you need to roll a 6 on a kairic that dies within 9" of a unit of tzaangors that has suffered a casualty.

[Jabbuk]

So, reading all your comments. I still have some confusion. Let's say that I have a group of 10 Pinks, and one dies. Split and Split Again triggers, and I can add 2 Blues, right? Making my unit 11 models. Is that a correct assumption?

[Bregor]

6 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So, reading all your comments. I still have some confusion. Let's say that I have a group of 10 Pinks, and one dies. Split and Split Again triggers, and I can add 2 Blues, right? Making my unit 11 models. Is that a correct assumption?

Based on my own reading, it looks like the following scenarios are true:

1) You have a unit of 10 pinks, one dies. You then add two blues to the unit since Split and Split again is allowed to exceed the maximum size.

2) You then use Rally on that unit, and roll a 6 (lucky!). However, you are not allowed to add that pink back to the unit since it is above its maximum unit size (and Rally has no such exception).

 

[AaronWilson]

You can 100% split into more then your original size. I'm not sure if the clause "this rule allows this unit to exceed maximum unit size" means you're able to also exceed via other means (lifeswarm, rally, fold reality) etc. 

Also what is maximum size, as the unit size inflates and deflates during the game. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by AaronWilson

[Ganigumo]

14 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

You can 100% split into more then your original size. I'm not sure if the clause "this rule allows this unit to exceed maximum unit size" means you're able to also exceed via other means (lifeswarm, rally, fold reality) etc. 

Also what is maximum size, as the unit size inflates and deflates during the game. 

Max size is starting size.

[AaronWilson]

5 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Max size is starting size.

Okay so if I lose 5 pinks, destiny dice battle shock into a 1, and gain 3 back. so have 8 pinks, 10 blues. Can I still try and rally the other 2 pinks? As I have 18 models in the unit which is above starting size. 

Edited July 2, 2021 by AaronWilson

[MitGas]

3 hours ago, Creamster said:

Khorne and Beasts don't look like allies either.  Blades of Khorne have maggot kin and std. As their only allies. Anyways I think we have to wait and see what FAQ brings as the BoC tzaangor points are really interesting for tzeentch (even if they potentially lose access to tzeentch DD).

Hmmm, having looked at the FAQ:

"Page 69 – Battle Traits Add the following battle trait: ‘LEGIONS OF CHAOS When an army dedicated to one of the Chaos Gods marches to war, it is often accompanied by hordes of Slaves to Darkness, snarling herds of beast-kin and other corrupted beings with similar goals.

A Disciples of Tzeentch army can include coalition units (see below) as follows: - 2 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Slaves to Darkness faction that has the Mark of Chaos keyword. Those units must be given the Tzeentch Mark of Chaos keyword.

- 1 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Beasts of Chaos faction. Those units gain the Tzeentch keyword. A Disciples of Tzeentch army cannot include coalition units with the Khorne or Nurgle keyword."

Sounds to me like we could actually take one cheaper Enlightened unit if we have 4 units in our army... 👁️‍🗨️

[Paniere]

22 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

1)Horrors [...] can still be healed based on the current wording. 

2)models that flee count as having been slain (just like in aos 2) 

Both statement are false, please take time to read through the rules carefully before posting to prevent spreading fake news:

1) You are allowed to heal/bring back slain models but if the unit is at its max size (starting size) , these additions are discarded. The only possible (and unlikely) scenarios for healing to actually happen are:

A) Your unit is reduced to less than 10 brimstones due to heavy casualties

B) Your unit is under it's max size because it failed a BS test badly AND it took advantage of petty vengeance at some point

 

2) Rule 1.2.2: models are "removed from play" if they are "slain" OR "flee". Precise distinction here, a model removed from play because it fled is NOT considered slain anymore

[EDIT]: today's faq bring things back, now fleeing counts as slain again omg...however this will not allow horrors to benefit from "split and split again" as per warscroll errata.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Paniere

[Paniere]

1 hour ago, AaronWilson said:

Okay so if I lose 5 pinks, destiny dice battle shock into a 1, and gain 3 back. [Edited for you: I have to discard these 3 pinks since I'm currently at 15 horrors which means  abover starting size] 

 

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, Paniere said:

Both statement are false, please take time to read through the rules carefully before posting to prevent spreading fake news:

1) You are allowed to heal/bring back slain models but if the unit is at its max size (starting size) , these additions are discarded. The only possible (and unlikely) scenarios for healing to actually happen are:

A) Your unit is reduced to less than 10 brimstones due to heavy casualties

B) Your unit is under it's max size because it failed a BS test badly AND it took advantage of petty vengeance at some point

 

2) Rule 1.2.2: models are "removed from play" if they are "slain" OR "flee". Precise distinction here, a model removed from play because it fled is NOT considered slain anymore

Basicly this. 

 

The banner can also be used here Ina weird way. 

If you kill all your pi k and then go under 30 horrors. You can then rally or heal your unit to bring back the banner, and if tin that turn you roll a battle shock and roll a 1 you may also use the banner to heal. This would work as long as you have less than mad size.

The FAQ says that ability let's you go over max, it does not change the rule to allow the unit to ignore the no giving over max rule entirely. 

TLDR split works perfectly. But any other healing still has to be when you are under your units stating size. 

 

[Bregor]

6 minutes ago, Paniere said:

 

 

2) Rule 1.2.2: models are "removed from play" if they are "slain" OR "flee". Precise distinction here, a model removed from play because it fled is NOT considered slain anymore

To clarify, this part no longer is true as of the FAQs this morning:

 

"15.0 – BATTLESHOCK PHASE Add the following sidebar note: ‘Models removed from play as a result of their unit being split have fled. Models that have fled are treated as having been slain for rules purposes, unless noted otherwise.’"

[Jabbuk]

15 minutes ago, Paniere said:

Both statement are false, please take time to read through the rules carefully before posting to prevent spreading fake news:

1) You are allowed to heal/bring back slain models but if the unit is at its max size (starting size) , these additions are discarded. The only possible (and unlikely) scenarios for healing to actually happen are:

A) Your unit is reduced to less than 10 brimstones due to heavy casualties

B) Your unit is under it's max size because it failed a BS test badly AND it took advantage of petty vengeance at some point

 

2) Rule 1.2.2: models are "removed from play" if they are "slain" OR "flee". Precise distinction here, a model removed from play because it fled is NOT considered slain anymore

Wait what? I'm sorry, this is really hard to understand for me. Why would they write that the ability Split and Split Again can exceed the unit maximum size in the FAQ? I mean.. I don't get it. What is the scenario where this happens then?

Edited July 2, 2021 by Jabbuk

[Jabbuk]

7 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Basicly this. 

 

The banner can also be used here Ina weird way. 

If you kill all your pi k and then go under 30 horrors. You can then rally or heal your unit to bring back the banner, and if tin that turn you roll a battle shock and roll a 1 you may also use the banner to heal. This would work as long as you have less than mad size.

The FAQ says that ability let's you go over max, it does not change the rule to allow the unit to ignore the no giving over max rule entirely. 

TLDR split works perfectly. But any other healing still has to be when you are under your units stating size. 

 

This makes sense to me then. Split can exceed, other abilities can't.

[Paniere]

15 hours ago, Bregor said:

To clarify, this part no longer is true as of the FAQs this morning:

 

"15.0 – BATTLESHOCK PHASE Add the following sidebar note: ‘Models removed from play as a result of their unit being split have fled. Models that have fled are treated as having been slain for rules purposes, unless noted otherwise.’"

Correct, they succeded in faqing up a ruleset before its official launch. Anyway this means that every pink that flees can still take petty vengeance , even though I'd rather remove a blue

 

[EDIT] above assumption is incorrect (thanks Sinfullyvanilla). When any horror flees , it's just gone

Edited July 3, 2021 by Paniere
wrong statement

[Ganigumo]

I don't want to restart this stupid edgeshooting argument, but if this edition and faq has shown us anything it's that "slain" triggers were never intended to work when a model flees. They went through hoops to make this explicitly clear, to the point where they went too far and wrote the rules in a way that we needed to count slain and fled models separately and we're still trying to argue slain triggers activate when a model flees.

 

"Models that have fled are treated as having been slain" is not the same thing as "they are slain".

 

Interpret it how you want, but it will 100% come down on the side of it doesn't trigger when they flee when we get an FAQ, if we even need one for this.

[Chaos Shepard]

Ok so on death effects wont trigger but after death effects like Rally would still work on models that fled. Which makes sense considering what "Rally" means.