AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

I cant find it, its possible that it was faqed in the old book, or more likely i was just wrong.

[Jabbuk]

13 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Actually both should. We get a point whenever a spell is cast and not unbound, it doesn't need to be a tzeentch wizard to do it. We generate them from our opponents spellcasts so theres no reason we wouldnt get them from an ally.

The description for the blue scribes says on a roll of 2+ the spell is automatically cast, which means it should also generate a FP unless i'm missing something.

With the new coherency rules I would avoid skyfires in 6s, I used them like that in aos2 and it was fine, but you end up losing out on a lot of melee output in 6s now because of the new coherency rules.

Would this be also true for Enlightened on Disc? They have a reach of 2", I feel like they could still all be in coherency and hit. Did I misunderstand the new rule?

[Ganigumo]

46 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Would this be also true for Enlightened on Disc? They have a reach of 2", I feel like they could still all be in coherency and hit. Did I misunderstand the new rule?

Yeah enlightened on disc can be in coherency and still all hit, but the ones in the back will only get spear attacks. The disc attacks are still 1"

 

Enlightened get a bonus if you're attacked first too, and as soon as you lose one they get the relaxed coherency rules so you can pile them all in.

[Clise]

So as far as I'm aware, with the way faction keywords currently work you could play the cheaper Beast of Chaos tzaangors in pure tzeentch army and just pay the lesser points value right? Unless their keywords change then you can just select them and pay the cost on their warscroll. I know it works this way for the Mutalith Vortex Beast when you take the version in the Slaves to Darkness battletome which is 30 points cheaper then the one in the Tzeentch Battletome and has all the exact same stats. Am I crazy or is there something I'm missing?

[Acrozatarim]

25 minutes ago, Clise said:

So as far as I'm aware, with the way faction keywords currently work you could play the cheaper Beast of Chaos tzaangors in pure tzeentch army and just pay the lesser points value right? Unless their keywords change then you can just select them and pay the cost on their warscroll. I know it works this way for the Mutalith Vortex Beast when you take the version in the Slaves to Darkness battletome which is 30 points cheaper then the one in the Tzeentch Battletome and has all the exact same stats. Am I crazy or is there something I'm missing?

I mean... are Beasts of Chaos a viable ally for Tzeentch? Are they a valid coalition faction? If neither of those is 'yes' in the new rules, then we can't take the cheaper BoC Tzaangor.

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:46 PM, Jabbuk said:

Would this be also true for Enlightened on Disc? They have a reach of 2", I feel like they could still all be in coherency and hit. Did I misunderstand the new rule?

Enlightened should still trade up against most units even if you lose out on the teeth with half of them as long as you are getting the extra attack from the agenda and are using a Fatemaster. They still just suffer from Flamers simply being the better choice.

Edited June 25, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Clise]

2 hours ago, Acrozatarim said:

I mean... are Beasts of Chaos a viable ally for Tzeentch? Are they a valid coalition faction? If neither of those is 'yes' in the new rules, then we can't take the cheaper BoC Tzaangor.

They are allies at least for now and I dont see that changing in the future. But do you even need to take them as allies, they presumably still have the tzeentch faction keyword and therefore you can just take them without it counting against allied points. The slaves to darkness mutalith vortex beast doesnt have to be allied in at all since it also has the tzeentch keyword. Based on the soublight and dominion boxset warscrolls there appears to be no change to how faction keywords function in the new edition.

[Frowny]

I don't think you should try to ally in the BoC tzaangors, even if its allowed. Firstly, the recent warcom article states they are pointed differently for a reason, regardless of whether you agree with that or not (although clearly tzeentch has better allegiance abilities than BoC). Secondly, it was clearly an intentional decision to make them different points costs. allying them in definitely defeats the rules as intended even if it may be rules as written (and I'm not even sure if that is the case). 

 

[Clise]

22 minutes ago, Frowny said:

I don't think you should try to ally in the BoC tzaangors, even if its allowed. Firstly, the recent warcom article states they are pointed differently for a reason, regardless of whether you agree with that or not (although clearly tzeentch has better allegiance abilities than BoC). Secondly, it was clearly an intentional decision to make them different points costs. allying them in definitely defeats the rules as intended even if it may be rules as written (and I'm not even sure if that is the case). 

 

Sure its bad sportsmanship and is clearly not something they intended/thought about. Either way its gunna be used and abused and leads to potential issues with other units/future units that can jump across allegiances like tzeentch beastmen. A simple FAQ stating that you cant take a warscrolls from another battletome if it shares the exact same name as one in your allegiance's battletome or even that you cant take a warscroll as an ally if it has the keywords necessary to be used in your core allegiance. It just seems like a glaring issue/exploit to me and something that easily destroys the intent they have towards their new point cost philosophy. Issues like this should be addressed and confirmed so they can be brought up to people who have the ability to fix the problem.

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 hours ago, Clise said:

They are allies at least for now and I dont see that changing in the future. But do you even need to take them as allies, they presumably still have the tzeentch faction keyword and therefore you can just take them without it counting against allied points. The slaves to darkness mutalith vortex beast doesnt have to be allied in at all since it also has the tzeentch keyword. Based on the soublight and dominion boxset warscrolls there appears to be no change to how faction keywords function in the new edition.

Keywords have absolutely nothing to do with Faction selection anymore. Your faction is now the pitched profile list you pick at the start of the game, units that you pay for on that list have access to your allegiance abilities. Allies do not. Right now there are references to a mechanic called Coaltitions that needs to be clarified. If you can take the units from BoC they wont benefit from your faction abilities(Destiny Dice, agendas).

The Soulblight book is worded the way it is because otherwise it would simply not have functioned in 2e. Dominion warscrolls are irrelevant because literally every single warscroll unit size is overwritten in their matched play profiles.

Edited June 26, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Clise]

15 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Keywords have absolutely nothing to do with Faction selection anymore. Your faction is now the pitched profile list you pick at the start of the game, units that you pay for on that list have access to your allegiance abilities. Allies do not. Right now there are references to a mechanic called Coaltitions that needs to be clarified. If you can take the units from BoC they wont benefit from your faction abilities(Destiny Dice, agendas).

The Soulblight book is worded the way it is because otherwise it would simply not have functioned in 2e. Dominion warscrolls are irrelevant because literally every single warscroll unit size is overwritten in their matched play profiles.

sweet, thanks for the clarification!

[Brad999]

On 6/26/2021 at 2:58 AM, Sinfullyvannila said:

Keywords have absolutely nothing to do with Faction selection anymore. Your faction is now the pitched profile list you pick at the start of the game, units that you pay for on that list have access to your allegiance abilities. Allies do not. Right now there are references to a mechanic called Coaltitions that needs to be clarified. If you can take the units from BoC they wont benefit from your faction abilities(Destiny Dice, agendas).

The Soulblight book is worded the way it is because otherwise it would simply not have functioned in 2e. Dominion warscrolls are irrelevant because literally every single warscroll unit size is overwritten in their matched play profiles.

I agree the BoC units shouldn't be taken as cheaper but the allegiance ability states tzeentch unit, which is what they still are on their warscroll. So if you took tzaangors as an ally they still can have DD dice used with them.

[Prometheo567]

I don't know if this has been discussed in the past. Probably it has, I guess. I usually play with my fiance and from time to time with a friend. Neither of them has a big collection and we prefer shorter games so most of our games are played in the 750-1000 points range. It's all fine and good unless I use my DoT, and that is because I feel like most allegiance abilities scale to the point total being used. For example, half the points means half the spells and therefore half the Fate Points and half the summonings.

That doesn't happen with our Destiny Dice. Am I supposed to get the full nine dice whatever the game magnitude is? It seems that way but it feels a bit overpowered to me since it doesn't scale. I have been using 5 or 3 for smaller games in order to "scale" it down, but I'm unsure if this is just a pet peeve of me or this has been addressed somewhere I didn't find.

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 hours ago, Brad999 said:

I agree the BoC units shouldn't be taken as cheaper but the allegiance ability states tzeentch unit, which is what they still are on their warscroll. So if you took tzaangors as an ally they still can have DD dice used with them.

Unless they're allies or coalition the army doesnt even get Allegiance abilities period.

[Acrozatarim]

5 hours ago, Prometheo567 said:

I don't know if this has been discussed in the past. Probably it has, I guess. I usually play with my fiance and from time to time with a friend. Neither of them has a big collection and we prefer shorter games so most of our games are played in the 750-1000 points range. It's all fine and good unless I use my DoT, and that is because I feel like most allegiance abilities scale to the point total being used. For example, half the points means half the spells and therefore half the Fate Points and half the summonings.

That doesn't happen with our Destiny Dice. Am I supposed to get the full nine dice whatever the game magnitude is? It seems that way but it feels a bit overpowered to me since it doesn't scale. I have been using 5 or 3 for smaller games in order to "scale" it down, but I'm unsure if this is just a pet peeve of me or this has been addressed somewhere I didn't find.

Tzeentch's summoning mechanics are completely borked for smaller sized games so I wouldn't worry about the 9 DD being unbalanced at those tiers - just look at it as balancing out how badly Fate Points scale for summoning.

[Prometheo567]

41 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

Tzeentch's summoning mechanics are completely borked for smaller sized games so I wouldn't worry about the 9 DD being unbalanced at those tiers - just look at it as balancing out how badly Fate Points scale for summoning.

I never found that a problem. Isn't the number of casters, and therefore the number of "summoning points" scaled to the game size? 

In case it is, what have you found useful to nerf the Fate Points generation? I don't see "upgrading to 2k" as an option right now

[Acrozatarim]

9 minutes ago, Prometheo567 said:

I never found that a problem. Isn't the number of casters, and therefore the number of "summoning points" scaled to the game size? 

In case it is, what have you found useful to nerf the Fate Points generation? I don't see "upgrading to 2k" as an option right now

No, the issue is that Fate Points are awful in smaller games where you'll struggle to summon anything at all whereas, for example, Slaanesh's Depravity Points remain pretty good in a 1k game and can have serious impact on how a battle plays out.

So having the full 9 DD at 750 or 1k is fine, since your other major allegiance ability is considerably worse than it would be in a 2k game.

[Prometheo567]

14 minutes ago, Acrozatarim said:

No, the issue is that Fate Points are awful in smaller games where you'll struggle to summon anything at all whereas, for example, Slaanesh's Depravity Points remain pretty good in a 1k game and can have serious impact on how a battle plays out.

So having the full 9 DD at 750 or 1k is fine, since your other major allegiance ability is considerably worse than it would be in a 2k game.

Oh, that is true. It feels "granulated", since it takes a lot for me to get 10 points and then suddenly I get 100+ points on the table on the last turns. I thought you meant that they were overpowered (which was not my impression).

I get what you mean

[Jabbuk]

Hey guys, 

So, I have a question about the Gaunt Summoner. I read that in general he's way over costed and basically unplayable. I'm kind of new to Tzeentch as I've been building an Arcanite army slowly over the past month or so but I find him to be very compelling. He's 255pts (that's a lot), but he is a double caster with a pretty good horde spell and he brings 25 wounds on the table for free, whenever he wants to. That's not nothing. What am I missing here? 

Now, with the new points, my 1k list Arcanite got all fussed up and I was thinking of still taking this guy in my 1k list. Would look a little like this: 

PYROFANE CULT
1x Fatemaster (General) - 135pts
1x Ogroid Thaumaturge - 165pts
1x Gaunt Summoner - 255pts

1x20 Kairic Acolytes - 150pts
1x10 Tzangors - 195pts

1000pts flat. 

I feel like Gaunt Summoner is a good addition to my list as I get more spell casting and he does bring 25 wounds on the table. Am I missing something obvious about him? 

Thanks

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Hey guys, 

So, I have a question about the Gaunt Summoner. I read that in general he's way over costed and basically unplayable. I'm kind of new to Tzeentch as I've been building an Arcanite army slowly over the past month or so but I find him to be very compelling. He's 255pts (that's a lot), but he is a double caster with a pretty good horde spell and he brings 25 wounds on the table for free, whenever he wants to. That's not nothing. What am I missing here? 

Now, with the new points, my 1k list Arcanite got all fussed up and I was thinking of still taking this guy in my 1k list. Would look a little like this: 

PYROFANE CULT
1x Fatemaster (General) - 135pts
1x Ogroid Thaumaturge - 165pts
1x Gaunt Summoner - 255pts

1x20 Kairic Acolytes - 150pts
1x10 Tzangors - 195pts

1000pts flat. 

I feel like Gaunt Summoner is a good addition to my list as I get more spell casting and he does bring 25 wounds on the table. Am I missing something obvious about him? 

Thanks

Whoever told you hes overcosted is nuts. All I can think of is that maybe after our costs got increased in last GHB he couldnt fit into Changehost as well as Fatemaster.

For your list, drop the Thaumaturge for literally anything else.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[mmimzie]

Okay so I've listed to a lot of youtubers recently as my best way to keep my foot in Warhammer while I'm busy. Sorry if this is said before, but I don't think it has been from my daily nosing about in here. 

 

In 3.0 I don't really see how pinks are "dead". Sure max unit size can't go beyond starting unless a rule change. However, the pinks can still take advantage of almost all of thier splitting. 

What you lose is the ability to get the unit size to explode quickly by killing lots of pinks first. 

 

That said wounds are still applied 1 at a time...meaning the pink dies per wound, then can immediately flow into blues and brims. This means in a 30man pink unit. When the first pink dies it splits into 1blue, and then 1 brim.

 

After that you are no long maxed and each pink can die counting all 5 wounds. If you want to load up on blues you can just wait till 15 pinks die for instance and hold onto 14+ blues as your other pinks start dying. 

 

You never gave to go over 30 to gain just about all of your wounds. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something. This is very possible as I'm only casually following this conversation.

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Okay so I've listed to a lot of youtubers recently as my best way to keep my foot in Warhammer while I'm busy. Sorry if this is said before, but I don't think it has been from my daily nosing about in here. 

 

In 3.0 I don't really see how pinks are "dead". Sure max unit size can't go beyond starting unless a rule change. However, the pinks can still take advantage of almost all of thier splitting. 

What you lose is the ability to get the unit size to explode quickly by killing lots of pinks first. 

 

That said wounds are still applied 1 at a time...meaning the pink dies per wound, then can immediately flow into blues and brims. This means in a 30man pink unit. When the first pink dies it splits into 1blue, and then 1 brim.

 

After that you are no long maxed and each pink can die counting all 5 wounds. If you want to load up on blues you can just wait till 15 pinks die for instance and hold onto 14+ blues as your other pinks start dying. 

 

You never gave to go over 30 to gain just about all of your wounds. 

 

Maybe I'm missing something. This is very possible as I'm only casually following this conversation.

Bomb half of them, don't half-split. If you split into 1 blue, you will keep having to split them into 1 blue until you lose all your pinks. Meaning you lose out on 20 wound. If you bomb every other(1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19) one you still lose out on 20 wounds per 10 but youre also doing mortals. Also, if you never bomb you can't bring them back with your Icon Bearers. So you're probably better off just bombing the first 3 if you have a 1 on your DD.

And yeah, I got them mixed up with the 40k ones so you do have to bomb them unfortunately. 

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Bomb half of them, don't half-split. If you split into 1 blue, you will keep having to split them into 1 blue until you lose all your pinks. Meaning you lose out on 20 wound. If you bomb every other(1,3,5,7,9,11,13,15,17,19) one you still lose out on 20 wounds per 10 but youre also doing mortals. Also, if you never bomb you can't bring them back with your Icon Bearers. So you're probably better off just bombing the first 3 if you have a 1 on your DD.

And yeah, I got them mixed up with the 40k ones so you do have to bomb them unfortunately. 

Explain what you mean by bomb? Unless bomb is doing something outside the realm of wounds. 

 

Either way wounds are allocated 1 at a time. So they die one model at a time. So the unit size can always stay within 30 models. 

 

Let's say you take 10 wounds.the first 3 wounds you give to a pink, a brim, and a blue. Then you give the next 5 to apink, 2 blues, and then 2 brims.  Lastly you could just kill a pink and a blue. Leaving  you under 30 models. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Explain what you mean by bomb? Unless bomb is doing something outside the realm of wounds. 

 

Either way wounds are allocated 1 at a time. So they die one model at a time. So the unit size can always stay within 30 models. 

 

Let's say you take 10 wounds.the first 3 wounds you give to a pink, a brim, and a blue. Then you give the next 5 to apink, 2 blues, and then 2 brims.  Lastly you could just kill a pink and a blue. Leaving  you under 30 models. 

1) Bombing = Petty vengeance. Instead of Split and Split you can use Petty Vengeance when a pink dies to deal a Mortal on a 5+

2) If you have any Pinks you have to allocate wounds to them before Blues; And even if that weren't the case, wounds are applied before models are removed. So you can't apply the wounds to the split models until all the models are removed from that set of attacks.

 

Edit: let me double check how much of #2 still applies in 3e. Yep, still checks out. Most people have a fundamental misunderstanding of how allocating damage, slaying and removing models works. This is because of bad habits they pick up from watching battle reports. People work under the assumption that you apply wounds and remove models many times during the attack sequence. But you dont apply wounds to models until ALL attacks are resolved. And models arent removed until all the damage is applied to the unit.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Jabbuk]

6 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

1) Bombing = Petty vengeance. Instead of Split and Split you can use Petty Vengeance when a pink dies to deal a Mortal on a 5+

2) If you have any Pinks you have to allocate wounds to them before Blues; And even if that weren't the case, wounds are applied before models are removed. So you can't apply the wounds to the split models until all the models are removed from that set of attacks.

 

Edit: let me double check how much of #2 still applies in 3e. Yep, still checks out. Most people have a fundamental misunderstanding of how allocating damage, slaying and removing models works. This is because of bad habits they pick up from watching battle reports. People work under the assumption that you apply wounds and remove models many times during the attack sequence. But you dont apply wounds to models until ALL attacks are resolved. And models arent removed until all the damage is applied to the unit.

That's how I would tend to think as well. Wait until all damage is done. Then allocate damage to all pinks first, according to rules.

So it brings this question for me: What about the unit summoned by the Gaunt Summoner: 5 pinks? Does this count as an understrength unit and it can thus go over the limit of 5 when you split with blues? I'm not sure I understand the rule you guys are talking about. Is there a rule that says that a unit can't be reinforced larger than its initial size? If so, what about the unit of 5 pinks? 

If you guys could demystify that, I'd appreciate it.

Edited June 30, 2021 by Jabbuk