AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kasper]

Super hyped for the Slaanesh release! Hope we get to see some warscrolls soon. Im curious if there might be some worthwhile allies - Especially Wizards - That we could combine with Kairos. Im hoping for the little Wizard on foot or the big palanquin guy to have some juicy warscroll spells!

 

In the mean time I have had a lot of fun with the Curseling lately. Curseling getting to unbind a spell and then immediately cast it with its Vessel of Chaos combined with Blue Scribes learning a spell on 4+ is rather fun. Protection of Teclis, Comet's Call, Black Horror of Ulgu (Morathi) etc. are all really fun spells to steal and learn!  

[MitGas]

10 hours ago, Kasper said:

Super hyped for the Slaanesh release! Hope we get to see some warscrolls soon. Im curious if there might be some worthwhile allies - Especially Wizards - That we could combine with Kairos. Im hoping for the little Wizard on foot or the big palanquin guy to have some juicy warscroll spells!

How disgusting of you to even think that?!  They are nothing, Tzeentch is everything! Slaanesh... pah! 

I fully applaud your use of the magnificent Curseling however. Very well done, as befits a follower of the one true Chaos god!

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 2/8/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ganigumo said:

 

6 skyfires shooting should do around 2-6 damage, or 3-7 with a shaman nearby.

If the skyfires shoot their target first, and get rerolls you can expect slightly higher total damage than enlightened with similar buffs.

 

On 2/8/2021 at 7:28 PM, Ganigumo said:

 

6 skyfires shooting should do around 2-6 damage, or 3-7 with a shaman nearby.

If the skyfires shoot their target first, and get rerolls you can expect slightly higher total damage than enlightened with similar buffs.

The 4/6 Enlightnened left after taking a hit should be doing well over 20 damage unless you're hitting something exceptional like Gotrek or Morathi.

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

 

The 4/6 Enlightnened left after taking a hit should be doing well over 20 damage unless you're hitting something exceptional like Gotrek or Morathi.

Depends what you're hitting, enlightened and skyfires want to function as a hammer unit, and theres plenty of stuff I wouldn't want to let touch my 24 wound, 360 point hammer on a 5+. Theres plenty of stuff that can paste a unit like that if you're not careful.

That said even just 4 enlightened with rerolls will do around 16-25 damage, but thats only around 4 damage more than attacking with 6 without rerolls.

At the end of the day you can be a lot more surgical with skyfires, and don't need to take as many risks when using them, but they do cost more.

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Depends what you're hitting, enlightened and skyfires want to function as a hammer unit, and theres plenty of stuff I wouldn't want to let touch my 24 wound, 360 point hammer on a 5+. Theres plenty of stuff that can paste a unit like that if you're not careful.

That said even just 4 enlightened with rerolls will do around 16-25 damage, but thats only around 4 damage more than attacking with 6 without rerolls.

At the end of the day you can be a lot more surgical with skyfires, and don't need to take as many risks when using them, but they do cost more.

Oh yeah they aren't blood knights for durability. But you're gonna have the same defensive profile as Skyfires and unless your opponent is terrible, youre going to be taking the same risks if you're looking to outperform Enlightened. So you should also be getting the same buffs as Enlightnened(ideally more than 1 neg hit buff and full rerolls from Shield of Fate) or they'll get just as splatted.

Kairos is a better pick than 6 Skyfires unless you're running up against Teclis. And even in that matchup you arent going to be able to afford to use your destiny 6's to proc the Mortal wounds.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

34 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Oh yeah they aren't blood knights for durability. But you're gonna have the same defensive profile as Skyfires and unless your opponent is terrible, youre going to be taking the same risks if you're looking to outperform Enlightened. So you should also be getting the same buffs as Enlightnened(ideally more than 1 neg hit buff and full rerolls from Shield of Fate) or they'll get just as splatted.

Kairos is a better pick than 6 Skyfires unless you're running up against Teclis. And even in that matchup you arent going to be able to afford to use your destiny 6's to proc the Mortal wounds.

The extra risk involved in using enlightened is that their rerolls trigger after a nearby enemy unit has fought, while skyfires get rerolls if they fight before any nearby enemy units fight. So in order to get those rerolls on the enlightened you need to do some sneaky pile-in manipulation or take a hit, but skyfires can get the rerolls without getting hit first as long as they aren't fighting last or the opponent has fights first.  The damage is really comparable when comparing skyfires with rerolls to enlightened without them, which represents them fighting first, and is the least risky way to use them. 

To summarize: 

• 6 enlightened with rerolls do absurd damage, but it's very hard to have 6 surviving to get rerolls
• 4 enlightened with rerolls will outdamage  6 enlightened without rerolls, or 6 skyfires with rerolls and shooting (by a noticable, but not huge, amount)
• 6 skyfires shooting their target first and getting rerolls will outdamage 6 enlightened without rerolls, and the skyfires don't need to worry about losing models before they attack
• The skyfires don't need the tzaangor shaman near them when in melee, only when they shoot.

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The extra risk involved in using enlightened is that their rerolls trigger after a nearby enemy unit has fought, while skyfires get rerolls if they fight before any nearby enemy units fight. So in order to get those rerolls on the enlightened you need to do some sneaky pile-in manipulation or take a hit, but skyfires can get the rerolls without getting hit first as long as they aren't fighting last or the opponent has fights first.  The damage is really comparable when comparing skyfires with rerolls to enlightened without them, which represents them fighting first, and is the least risky way to use them. 

To summarize: 

• 6 enlightened with rerolls do absurd damage, but it's very hard to have 6 surviving to get rerolls
• 4 enlightened with rerolls will outdamage  6 enlightened without rerolls, or 6 skyfires with rerolls and shooting (by a noticable, but not huge, amount)
• 6 skyfires shooting their target first and getting rerolls will outdamage 6 enlightened without rerolls, and the skyfires don't need to worry about losing models before they attack
• The skyfires don't need the tzaangor shaman near them when in melee, only when they shoot.

 

I'm VERY well aware of the risks.

Skyfires just arent going to be able to hit things hard enough to make the unit ineffective. Then in a real game your opponent is going to hit them with another unit. And since you know what defensive buffs your enlightened are going to have in your hero phase, you know when you're going to be able to take the initial hit and when you have to hit them first.

Also, you dont even need to necessarily take a hit if you play them right. You just need to attack a unit that already fought within 3". You can position them behind your anvil, have the anvil take the hit, then pile in and fight. Either your opponent won't be able to pile in, or they'll pile in enough to be ineffective against your enlightened.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

7 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Skyfires just arent going to be able to hit things hard enough to make the unit ineffective. Then in a real game your opponent is going to hit them with another unit. And since you know what defensive buffs your enlightened are going to have in your hero phase, you know when you're going to be able to take the initial hit and when you have to hit them first.

Also, you dont even need to necessarily take a hit if you play them right. You just need to attack a unit that already fought within 3". You can position them behind your anvil, have the anvil take the hit, then pile in and fight. Either your opponent won't be able to pile in, or they'll pile in enough to be ineffective against your enlightened.

On 1/26/2021 at 5:23 PM, Ganigumo said:

6 skyfires fighting first will put out 9-18 damage most of the time in melee, although it can be pretty swingy with the d3 damage and attacks.

6 enlightened put out 9-19 without buffs, or 12-22 with a nearby shaman. (Their damage skyrockets to 25-37 if they get their rerolls but it triggers on fighting after something else nearby has already fought, and enlightened aren't exactly durable).

The way to use skyfires is to soften up a target with shooting and mortals from spells, then commit when you are likely to finish it off, or put it at a point where it can't fight back.

The way to use enlightened is to look for ways to protect them and buff their defenses so they can get rerolls while taking minimal casualties.

Both are equally weak to getting counter-charged, since they have the same bulk and need to expose themselves to take down units.

Discs of Tzeentch also only have a 1" attack range, so if your enlightened are hanging behind a unit to fight after your opponent has piled in they'll lose a lot of damage unless the unit in front is destroyed or on 25mm bases and is 1 model deep (you'll probably have some chaff units in your army to use for this). 

I prefer skyfires because I don't like leaving my unit's effectiveness to chance, if you underestimate their damage, or they roll high/you roll low its easy for the enlightened to lose a lot of effectiveness. You don't need to worry about that if you fight first, and the skyfires do win out on damage in that scenario as long as they shoot at the thing they're going to fight.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

The way to use skyfires is to soften up a target with shooting and mortals from spells, then commit when you are likely to finish it off, or put it at a point where it can't fight back.

The way to use enlightened is to look for ways to protect them and buff their defenses so they can get rerolls while taking minimal casualties.

Both are equally weak to getting counter-charged, since they have the same bulk and need to expose themselves to take down units.

Discs of Tzeentch also only have a 1" attack range, so if your enlightened are hanging behind a unit to fight after your opponent has piled in they'll lose a lot of damage unless the unit in front is destroyed or on 25mm bases and is 1 model deep (you'll probably have some chaff units in your army to use for this). 

I prefer skyfires because I don't like leaving my unit's effectiveness to chance, if you underestimate their damage, or they roll high/you roll low its easy for the enlightened to lose a lot of effectiveness. You don't need to worry about that if you fight first, and the skyfires do win out on damage in that scenario as long as they shoot at the thing they're going to fight.

If they costed the same points you may have a point but they cost more. Just looking at dice rolls doesn't have any practical value. You have to look at what other tools you have available and also what you're using your units against and how much all of those things cost.

And you never have to be in a situation where you "worry" about getting hit first with the Enlightened. You have 16", fly, and destiny dice to charge. You get your defensive buffs in your hero phase. You get to engage on your terms with them. And if you bring the bull you can activation wars the other unit. You only have to worry about when you get hit with Skyfires.

I don't think were going to come to agree on this, but I do use both in my lists. I just only use 3 Skyfires for pressure on heroes, opportunitstic  kills(especially punishing heroes) and stealing objectives because 6 have literally never made their points back. So 3 do all the work that 6 have for me. If you're going to spend 400 points on a fragile flying unit that does mortals at range and also does melee work you're better off running Kairos. Or if you're looking for damage at range you're better off with Flamers, or your leader and Acolytes in a Pyrofane list.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

5 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

If they costed the same points you may have a point but they cost more.

 

 Skyfires will always be worth more in their current state since they can still contribute (somewhat) in the turns you're holding them back. Its not a lot of damage when all you do is shoot with them in a turn, but its more than you would do with enlightened on a turn you need to hold them back. Its not much but I think that's worth the extra 20 points, your mileage may vary though.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Ganigumo

[Sinfullyvannila]

Ran the math. I could only run 5 different units so the are all under the assumption that you use the agenda to pull off a 9' charge before doing that. In practice you're only going to be getting 4 models within 1" of the unit, so in all the cases except one, 2 models miss out on their 1" attacks. And on your last remark, Skyfires can only be expected to put out 7ish damage without getting into melee unless you're dumping your DDs.

Note the Skyfires doing roughly 9 on the 2+ armor. Cut it in half and that's less than what 3 of them do. That's why I'm saying bring 3 to pressure heroes, because anyone with experience knows that if the DoT player gooses a hit with their DD or hits them with a spell they can almost guarantee killing a 6 wound hero with Skyfires. Running your 6 Skyfires against 5+ is fine too, but you only ever want to use your bows against heroes or a unit of 10 5+ units like Arkos or Ungors to try to bait out an opponents use of a CP. Going against anything tougher than 5+ in melee and you'll lose out on efficiency. On paper, you can bully MSUs of 3+ like Liberators or Chaos Warriors pretty well with 6 Skyfires, but in practice your opponent is going to use them to bait out your Skyfires to get them into their threat range.

Tzaangor Report.pdf

Edited February 13, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Ran the math. I could only run 5 different units so the are all under the assumption that you use the agenda to pull off a 9' charge before doing that. In practice you're only going to be getting 4 models within 1" of the unit, so in all the cases except one, 2 models miss out on their 1" attacks. And on your last remark, Skyfires can only be expected to put out 7ish damage without getting into melee unless you're dumping your DDs.

Note the Skyfires doing roughly 9 on the 2+ armor. Cut it in half and that's less than what 3 of them do. That's why I'm saying bring 3 to pressure heroes, because anyone with experience knows that if the DoT player gooses a hit with their DD or hits them with a spell they can almost guarantee killing a 6 wound hero with Skyfires. Running your 6 Skyfires against 5+ is fine too, but you only ever want to use your bows against heroes or a unit of 10 5+ units like Arkos or Ungors to try to bait out an opponents use of a CP. Going against anything tougher than 5+ in melee and you'll lose out on efficiency. On paper, you can bully MSUs of 3+ like Liberators or Chaos Warriors pretty well with 6 Skyfires, but in practice your opponent is going to use them to bait out your Skyfires to get them into their threat range.

Tzaangor Report.pdf 652.66 kB · 2 downloads

In your report the skyfires are beating out the enlightened if the enlightened don't have rerolls. Which is exactly what I've been saying, plus some of the damage is at range.

I'm not sure why only 4 are expected to be able to get in, but its fair across them so it doesn't affect the comparison.

I'm also not sure why you would throw your 400 point skyfires (or 360 point enlightened) at an MSU bait unit so they can get countercharged. Seems like a bad idea for either unit.

[Sinfullyvannila]

Enlightened cost 10 percent less and the only times that Skyfires do more than that is against 2+ and marginally more so against 3+. Also, remember that being at range means that you are only getting that damage in half as many turns since you only shoot on your turn.

I advised against running them against MSU 3+ in the above post. But on paper they can bully them, meaning the unit they attack won't be able to hit them back hard enough to remove a model.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Enlightened cost 10 percent less and the only times that Skyfires do more than that is against 2+ and marginally more so against 3+. Also, remember that being at range means that you are only getting that damage in half as many turns.

I advised against running them against MSU 3+ in the above post. But on paper they can bully them.

Any turn in which your opponent has control (when you can't shoot) also won't be a good turn to be an enlightened in combat, if it is; your opponent should be retreating. Neither of these units are good if we aren't in control of the situations they're in because of their high cost and low bulk. Either our enlightened/skyfires use their speed to smash something where its hard for our opponent to retaliate, or they're dead. Neither of these units are built to grind in combat. If your enlightened are getting maximum combat effectiveness on your opponent's turn they're doing something wrong.

 

Again. The reason I prefer skyfires is because letting your opponent hit you first adds risk. If your opponent rolls high you can lose a lot of points and effectiveness and there will be turns where you need to hold your enlightened/skyfires back from combat so you can pick safe engagements with them, skyfires can shoot in those turns.

I am not saying enlightened are bad, I am saying using guided by the past adds extra risk that turns me off of them.

If I were to bring enlightened I would bring a fatemaster with them to mitigate the risk, which would see them do significantly more damage than skyfires, but it would cost 480 points. I would not bring a fatemaster to support skyfires, since the rerolls would only affect their shooting, but I would try to take advantage of the buff if there was one in my army supporting something else. In your math where there isn't a fatemaster skyfires do more fighting first unless its against a 6+ save, which is how I tend to use them.

[Sinfullyvannila]

They only do more damage point for point against 2+ and 3+. Unless were talking open play here. I know im not going to convince you but your bias is getting in the way of letting other people get good advice.

Edited February 13, 2021 by Sinfullyvannila

[Ganigumo]

41 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

They only do more damage point for point against 2+ and 3+. Unless were talking open play here. I know im not going to convince you but your bias is getting in the way of letting other people get good advice.

From your own report:

As we can see from the top 2 lines, the skyfires beat the enlightened until the save gets up to a 6+?

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

From your own report:

As we can see from the top 2 lines, the skyfires beat the enlightened until the save gets up to a 6+?

Cut the Skyfire numbers by 10% to get the point for point comparison.

[Chronos]

Hey, so I'm trying to come up with more of a friendly Tzeentch list but one that's still competitive, and I would love to hear some ideas and also give my take. Please let me know if you think this is a decent list for friendly games or still skews high-powered:

Eternal Conflagration

Leaders

• Kairos Fateweaver
• Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (General)
• Changecaster
• Blue Scribes
• Changeling

Battleline

• 3 Flamers
• 6 Flamers
• 10 Kairic Acolytes
• 10 Kairic Acolytes

Other

• Exalted Flamer

This is 1800 points and allows me some flexibility if I want to add in the Warpflame Host to get AoM on the Blue Scribes for more damage output, or add in some of the often discussed Enlightened/Skyfires, a couple more units of Acolytes for more Fate Points or Endless Spells. I would probably stick to the 'normal' picks for Lore choices, and the strategy would be to pop up a lot of roadblocks of Blue Horrors while picking off important enemy units with spells and flamers.

I think it's still a decent army but definitely lacks the bodies and staying power with Pinks, will struggle to get objectives against large enemy units, and has low saves all around. Still a lot of MW output from spells and ranged mobile damage, but with no Pinks and no Changehost, I don't think people could really complain, and possibly no Battalion.

Curious this subs thoughts.

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Chronos
Grammar

[Ratling]

Hey guys.

Today I converted Ahriman into Fatemaster. How do you like it?

[frostyeel]

19 hours ago, Ratling said:

Hey guys.

Today I converted Ahriman into Fatemaster. How do you like it?

Looks great! I think the headswap and big shield really sell it as not Ahriman.

--

I'm looking for advice on how to make an all flying army work, or at least not be totally awful. I picked up the start of my Tzeentch mortals army last year when the Aether War stuff was cheap, and I'm finally starting to build and paint it. I wanted to try running a skyshoal coven, and thought Hosts Arcanum with screamers as cheaper battleline made sense. This led me to the idea of a fully flying army, which I love imagining and would like to build. I know this probably will be pretty weak, as it's just a bunch of fast moving fragile units, but I'd like any feedback you have on how to make it as fun as possible (either by losing less or having more fun while losing). Also, this won't be my only list as I also love foot Tzaangors and will collect/paint toward having more balanced forces as other list options.

Here's what I'm thinking so far:

Hosts Arcanum

Leaders

• Tzaangor Shaman
• Fatemaster
• Magister on Disk of Tzeentch

Battleline

• 3 Screamers of Tzeentch
• 3 Screamers of Tzeentch
• 3 Screamers of Tzeentch

Other

Skyshoal Coven:

• 6 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs of Tzeentch
• 3 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs of Tzeentch
• 3 Tzaangor Skyfires
• 3 Tzaangor Skyfires

 

This adds up to 1730 points. From here I could add 3 more Enlightened and 3 more screamers, or 9 more screamers, or a Gaunt Summoner on Disc, or The Blue Scribes + a Fluxmaster or Fateskimmer. Dropping the skyshoal coven and MSU Enlightened brings it down to 1410 points, which opens up the option of a Lord of Change or Kairos (the only model with feet touching the ground that I feel still fits well enough). I'd appreciate any feedback.

[Death1942]

How is the mortal side of Tzeentch looking these days?  I know the book heavily favours the daemons but Kairic Acolytes seem solid and are great models.  I am curious to see non Archaon versions if possible, I know he is great already.

[Aschkumuk]

Hi ! i'm new in AoS. I like the Tzangors and I tried to build an army through them. Open to advice) I thought about playing through LORD OF CHANGE with Rod of Sorcery, but I'm starting to look closely at KAIROS FATEWEAVER, because he can cast Gift of Change 3 time . What is your opinion and what can be improved here?

[Sinfullyvannila]

On 2/22/2021 at 6:09 PM, Death1942 said:

How is the mortal side of Tzeentch looking these days?  I know the book heavily favours the daemons but Kairic Acolytes seem solid and are great models.  I am curious to see non Archaon versions if possible, I know he is great already.

Acolytes can do a lot of heavy lifting in generating summoning points. They work well in Guild of Summoned and the ones in the Pyrofane Cult do efficient damage, but not as good as your other options.

[Death1942]

I figured as much, it is a real shame the mortal battalion are so restrictive compared to the daemon ones.  I feel they missed a trick there.

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 hours ago, Death1942 said:

I figured as much, it is a real shame the mortal battalion are so restrictive compared to the daemon ones.  I feel they missed a trick there.

Its more that the Daemon side is way too good than anything else.