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I managed to finish and paint my Fatemaster conversion. I thought I'd post it here. Thanks to some of you who shared theirs many, many pages back. It sure inspired me. 

Some other random thoughts I've had... Horrors losing a save is actually less relevant than people think thanks to Brimstones now also getting a 6+ save (so from a unit of 10 Pinks, 10 of your woun

I have 6 counts as Spawns via Wyrds Stalking Portals. Great option for anyone looking to add to and diversify their spawn models imo.  

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3 hours ago, Kasper said:

I have been looking at the Endless Spells for Tzeentch for a while.. My local shop got 30% off due to "black week" so I decided to buy the Tzeentch and S2D ones. I find the Tzeentch ones really awkward after studying the scrolls. While I get the point of Tome of Eyes, I just fear the risk of rolling double 2s or 6s when Kairos is casting 4 spells a turn. He could bracket himself pretty fast on his own without even considering any kind of chip damage, and you have no sustainability?

I thought of including the Burning Sigil in your other list. The idea of is controlling the midfield and while the Burning Sigil is random, I feel like it could maybe cause a zone (18" setup range and then 12" radius around that) that your opponent likely dont want to walk into. This could cover objectives/midfield somewhat. It is annoying that we have a limit on 3 endless spells though..

I didn't understand why anyone would take Tome either, but it makes sense after looking a few things over. When it comes to the LoC/Kairos, the dice matching ability is written as "you can change the dice" so if you roll, say a 4 and a 6, just keep that roll.. but if you roll say a double 2 then you can RR it and you have a better chance at not hurting yourself. Overall I think it's a bit gimmicky, but the Tome will add 2-3" to your casts because it moves with you and needs to be setup within 1". I think if you can't fit in Blue Scribes and you really want to make 1 caster (Kairos in all circumstances probably) a turret, it's a good call.

I thought about that before honestly but.. yeah the random nature kills it for me generally. I would really want to be rolling the halve movement more than anything and with chances like that I would rather take more damage via Geminids/Daemonrift.

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18 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I didn't understand why anyone would take Tome either, but it makes sense after looking a few things over. When it comes to the LoC/Kairos, the dice matching ability is written as "you can change the dice" so if you roll, say a 4 and a 6, just keep that roll.. but if you roll say a double 2 then you can RR it and you have a better chance at not hurting yourself. Overall I think it's a bit gimmicky, but the Tome will add 2-3" to your casts because it moves with you and needs to be setup within 1". I think if you can't fit in Blue Scribes and you really want to make 1 caster (Kairos in all circumstances probably) a turret, it's a good call.

I thought about that before honestly but.. yeah the random nature kills it for me generally. I would really want to be rolling the halve movement more than anything and with chances like that I would rather take more damage via Geminids/Daemonrift.

Yeah I can see the potential in the Tome, but I just dont like the idea of risking that Kairos brackets himself. This is without even considering random chip damage like Comet's Call or other long range shooting attacks etc. 

I feel like you could achieve almost the same effect but still having access to Wind of Chaos by taking your other "control list" and shaving off Blue Scribes, Be'lakor etc. 

The randomness does suck, but I could see it working out alright as a threat. Even if you dont roll well, I think most opponents would think twice before "invading" said space at the risk of getting halved movement, -1 hit, suffer D3 MWs and have a Chaos Spawn appear (Host Dup) makes this even more fun. As I read the Endless Spell, you get to roll a D6 and then see the result and pick a unit afterwards. So if you get a positive buff, you can select your own unit, if not you can select an enemy unit. If there is no enemy unit within 12" of the Sigil, you can just move outside of it as it happens at the end of your movement phase.

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Hi guys, I have a rather specific question. I've looked at the Tzaangors warscroll to figure out how to equip them and they have quite a few options. Taking into account that I'm building towards a Pyrofane Cult build with Tzaangors being the front line, is it ok for me to equip them with dual blades? I was thinking, shield on acolytes, double blades on Tzaangors to maximise damage. Do I put any shield in the unit? If so how many do you suggest?

Also, should Tzaangors always be played in groups of 20min? Since they have a buff when they are more than 9 models in the unit. I was wondering if a unit of 10 would be too squishy?

Thanks :)

edit: my unit has 10 models in it and maybe upgrade to 20 in the future, in case it helps.

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On 11/26/2020 at 10:05 PM, Jabbuk said:

Hi guys, I have a rather specific question. I've looked at the Tzaangors warscroll to figure out how to equip them and they have quite a few options. Taking into account that I'm building towards a Pyrofane Cult build with Tzaangors being the front line, is it ok for me to equip them with dual blades? I was thinking, shield on acolytes, double blades on Tzaangors to maximise damage. Do I put any shield in the unit? If so how many do you suggest?

Also, should Tzaangors always be played in groups of 20min? Since they have a buff when they are more than 9 models in the unit. I was wondering if a unit of 10 would be too squishy?

Thanks :)

edit: my unit has 10 models in it and maybe upgrade to 20 in the future, in case it helps.

Shields are generally better. 2/5 tzaangors have greatweapons which have an expected damage of .5 with no buffs or the extra attack for 9+ models. 1/5 Tzaangors is a mutant with paired blades and an extra attack with an expected damage of .5 with no buffs or the horde bonus. (Greatweapons beat out mutants with the extra attack, since they double the number of attacks).

Paired savage blades have an expected damage of .33 shieldgors have an expected damage of .25

 

Shields are generally better because so many of the models have special weapons that the normal tzaangors often don't contribute much to the fighting. For a 10 man unit you might get some extra value out of paired blades but in a 20 man they'll rarely contribute.

 

Also you can make the unit captain use a greatblade.

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7 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Shields are generally better. 2/5 tzaangors have greatweapons which have an expected damage of .5 with no buffs or the extra attack for 9+ models. 1/5 Tzaangors is a mutant with paired blades and an extra attack with an expected damage of .5 with no buffs or the horde bonus. (Greatweapons beat out mutants with the extra attack, since they double the number of attacks).

Paired savage blades have an expected damage of .33 shieldgors have an expected damage of .25

 

Shields are generally better because so many of the models have special weapons that the normal tzaangors often don't contribute much to the fighting. For a 10 man unit you might get some extra value out of paired blades but in a 20 man they'll rarely contribute.

 

Also you can make the unit captain use a greatblade.

That's great info! Thank you very much. I guess I will build paired blades for my unit of 10 with 1 shield in, to start, and when I get another unit, I'll put shields on everyone who doesn't have a special weapon.

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3 hours ago, Hannibal said:

Hi all,

 

I´ve noticed a slight trend to Exalted Flamers instead of Flamers. What´s the reason here?

To be honest, I'm still trying to understand it as well. I planned to run 5 Exalted in an Arcanum list (where the inherent -1 rend should help) but if I pay 60 more points for 12 Flamers instead that don't even have rend, they're doing ~3-7 more damage depending on the save and assuming you're on 2's/2's. Even if you take away the bonuses against hordes, 5 Exalted is doing the same amount of damage across the board for the most part with them being slightly better vs 3+ saves and Flamers being slightly better vs worse saves. Even in Conflag that -2 rend makes the difference between the 2 units about the same with only a 1-3 % difference.

With the amount of things that already ignore -1 rend or reduce rend.. I'm not really seeing the point aside from people just wanting to run something different for the sake of being different? Who knows, but I'm trying to find out 😅


 

 

On 11/26/2020 at 8:51 AM, Kasper said:

Yeah I can see the potential in the Tome, but I just dont like the idea of risking that Kairos brackets himself. This is without even considering random chip damage like Comet's Call or other long range shooting attacks etc. 

I feel like you could achieve almost the same effect but still having access to Wind of Chaos by taking your other "control list" and shaving off Blue Scribes, Be'lakor etc. 

The randomness does suck, but I could see it working out alright as a threat. Even if you dont roll well, I think most opponents would think twice before "invading" said space at the risk of getting halved movement, -1 hit, suffer D3 MWs and have a Chaos Spawn appear (Host Dup) makes this even more fun. As I read the Endless Spell, you get to roll a D6 and then see the result and pick a unit afterwards. So if you get a positive buff, you can select your own unit, if not you can select an enemy unit. If there is no enemy unit within 12" of the Sigil, you can just move outside of it as it happens at the end of your movement phase.

I'm giving a shot regardless though.. adding 3" to your casts could even mean you don't need the Spellportal.. at least not in lists that have another element of damage aside from spells. In my control lists, yeah keep Spellportal at all times.

I have a few lists in the work now that drop Be'lakor just in case the December FAQ won't be kind to him.. or Tzeentch in general. He's a crux that I've grown a bit tired of so I want to replace it with other elements. I may give the spell a try I guess.. you do make solid points. 

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Here's a scenario where the tome shines: cast it with Kairos in host arcanum, getting a total of +9 extra inches (3" for the tome and 6" for the extra move given by that coven). Now you can snipe with 6 flat MW a key support hero within 27" in sight. When you roll for casting, you can reroll results which doesn't show any 6s or double 1s, giving the spell a 55% chance of being unstoppable. 

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Hey guys, at which point does the Tzaangors Shaman becomes really valuable in your list building, regarding Enlightened and stuff? I'm wondering because my starting project is a 1k list with the following base:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)

10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

10 x Tzaangors (180)

3 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (180)

 

Total: 800 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 0

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 57

I have room for another hero and here are the 3 options I'm considering:

- A Tzaangor shaman an extra CP for 200pts flat. This will synergize with enlightened but I wonder if he's worth it if I only have 3 enlightened on discs.

- An Ogroid Thaumaturge and the Tome as an Endless spell (also 200pts). He would provide some additional punch and nice MW output.

- Finally, a Fatemaster and an extra CP (for 190pts) this one would synergize with the acolytes more for the shooting.

I was wondering what option you guys think is stronger. Eventually I know I will add Acolytes and will get both the Fatemaster and Shaman but for the 1k build, is there a better option? Thanks in advance :)

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21 hours ago, Paniere said:

Here's a scenario where the tome shines: cast it with Kairos in host arcanum, getting a total of +9 extra inches (3" for the tome and 6" for the extra move given by that coven). Now you can snipe with 6 flat MW a key support hero within 27" in sight. When you roll for casting, you can reroll results which doesn't show any 6s or double 1s, giving the spell a 55% chance of being unstoppable. 

Any 6s is "almost" unstoppable on its own though (12/13 is rather difficult to beat) and it isnt difficult to get access to casting rerolls in the first place. My biggest gripe is that it takes up an Endless Spell slot and the fact you will bracket Kairos simply by turreting spells. I guess it hugely depends on what you play against (+3 unbind Kroak/Teclis), what your list is made up of and what exactly your plan is. If you dont have a specific gameplan in mind with it, it seems rather terrible to be fair.  

Edited by Kasper
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On 11/28/2020 at 4:28 PM, Gwendar said:

I'm giving a shot regardless though.. adding 3" to your casts could even mean you don't need the Spellportal.. at least not in lists that have another element of damage aside from spells. In my control lists, yeah keep Spellportal at all times.

I have a few lists in the work now that drop Be'lakor just in case the December FAQ won't be kind to him.. or Tzeentch in general. He's a crux that I've grown a bit tired of so I want to replace it with other elements. I may give the spell a try I guess.. you do make solid points. 

I mean I completely understand wanting to switch things up. You have played the list a fair few times by now, so I would probably want to switch things up too. :DPlay some games and report back! Im curious how it will be on the table. Sometimes things look great/bad on paper but on the table things turn out significantly different. 

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6 hours ago, Kasper said:

I mean I completely understand wanting to switch things up. You have played the list a fair few times by now, so I would probably want to switch things up too. :DPlay some games and report back! Im curious how it will be on the table. Sometimes things look great/bad on paper but on the table things turn out significantly different. 

I'm just getting a bit burnt out on it to be honest. I enjoy it quite a lot and it works well, but I see the December FAQ shaking it up a bit. It really wants to play against melee focused armies, and right now the meta just doesn't lean into that and it has a hard time vs shooting. I meant to get some games in this past weekend with the following but.. just wasn't feeling it and WoW had me a little sidetracked 😅


Arcanum Flamers

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet

Battleline
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Aether-eater Host (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Tome of Eyes (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102
 

2 main threats here; Kairos that can potentially have a 27" threat range T1 and throw out 4 spells and the highly mobile gun battery. I'm trying to lean into casting + shooting a bit without just going into Conflag.. although that would probably be the better option. If I actually make myself play a couple test games, we'll see what happens with changes. And yeah, I could swap out the Changecaster for a Scribes and drop the Tome but at that point I don't have 4 good spells to cast.. only Gift and Bolt.

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Hello, just starting in with Tzeentch and I'm looking for some opinions and insight on where I should expand my current collection.

 

I love the bird theme of Tzeencth, so I want to lean heavy into it. Right now I have, and want to include the following: 

      Lord of Change-(weapon option TBD)

      Tzaangor Shaman

      20x Tzaangors

      6xSkyfires

      6xEnlightened on discs

These together sit at 1650, which leaves 350 points to play with.

 

So my main question; where do I expand the collection from here? I know I need at least another hero to start with.  Only thing, is I can't decide between a Fatemaster,  Curseling or another Shaman.

Do I grab some Acolytes for objective camping and more ranged? Go whole hog on the Tzaangors and get more? Do I care about Endless Spells?

                                 *Note, not a huge fan of the deamons in general, other than the Lord of Change.

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8 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

Hello, just starting in with Tzeentch and I'm looking for some opinions and insight on where I should expand my current collection.

 

I love the bird theme of Tzeencth, so I want to lean heavy into it. Right now I have, and want to include the following: 

      Lord of Change-(weapon option TBD)

      Tzaangor Shaman

      20x Tzaangors

      6xSkyfires

      6xEnlightened on discs

These together sit at 1650, which leaves 350 points to play with.

 

So my main question; where do I expand the collection from here? I know I need at least another hero to start with.  Only thing, is I can't decide between a Fatemaster,  Curseling or another Shaman.

Do I grab some Acolytes for objective camping and more ranged? Go whole hog on the Tzaangors and get more? Do I care about Endless Spells?

                                 *Note, not a huge fan of the deamons in general, other than the Lord of Change.

Hey there, I suggest you read the last 3-4 pages of the thread, they might prove useful to you. I asked some questions about the Battlebox (arcanite focused) and folks gave very insightful info. RunCMD even started to write a little guide on how to collect Tzeentch. Personally, I wanted to go the Acolyte route and Pyrofane Cult seems to be the most competitive build for this type of focus. The Fatemaster seems to be mandatory for that type of build, too.

Now, you have a lot of Tzaangors so I can't really give any advice as I'm also starting the army. However, many questions that you ask should, I think, really be answered by you first :) It all depends on what you want to play and then try to tailor it to make it good. My guess is that if you go heavy Tzaangors you could definitely use some Acolytes and try to go for cult of the Transient Form and tailor your army for that.

Endless Spells all have their uses I think but the Tome seems to have the most potential.

Finally, I found this guide here: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-disciples-of-tzeentch-tactics/

It's very insightful.

I hope this helps. Good luck :)

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14 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

...

I hope this helps. Good luck :)

Thanks, lots of good stuff to look through. 

 

The Fatemaster seems like my next pick-up.  Not sure if I want to do the standard Arhiman conversion, or go for something else.   Just too bad he can't cast any spells, I'm curious why they removed that, since in all the history of Tzeentch lords, they were wizards and warriors.

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21 minutes ago, KaptainWalrus said:

Thanks, lots of good stuff to look through. 

 

The Fatemaster seems like my next pick-up.  Not sure if I want to do the standard Arhiman conversion, or go for something else.   Just too bad he can't cast any spells, I'm curious why they removed that, since in all the history of Tzeentch lords, they were wizards and warriors.

Yeah, that's the conversion I want to do too (Ahriman). I mean when you look at the old sculpt, Ahriman looks exactly like a good version of this guy. He has the same leaning pose, the horned helmet, the complex shoulder pads, the long cape, etc. To me it really seems like a natural fit. I'm still wondering what kind of blade I will use instead of the top of his staff. I'll see the leftover bits I have. I think an enlightened spear would fit well. I just don't want to have his weapon be the same as them. Maybe a cut off, acolytes blade. Let me know if you have other ideas. Also of note, Fatemaster is on a 60mm base. The web description says 40mm but the latest FAQ chart says 60mm. Definitely something to keep in mind. 

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On 12/1/2020 at 8:45 AM, KaptainWalrus said:

The Fatemaster seems like my next pick-up.  Not sure if I want to do the standard Arhiman conversion, or go for something else.   Just too bad he can't cast any spells, I'm curious why they removed that, since in all the history of Tzeentch lords, they were wizards and warriors.

I made a Fatemaster from the old Aekold Helbrass, who was just a heavily armored sword wielding old metal model, suitably fancy.  For the disc I used an inverted 40mm base and slapped a bunch of spikes and blades around, mounted on a flamey bit from a Bloodthirster.   Basically any cool blade dude with the right bits, and on a disc, will do nicely. 

He really makes a combat unit great with the CA, and his ignoring spells on a 4+ means he can go through the thick of it.  I also gave him Paradoxical Shield and Nexus of Fate as my general when running with the Bullgors.  Rerolling a Destiny Dice can pay off big!  And he's pretty tough to kill for most regular units that don't do MW or too much rend; guess the Chamon plate would make him arguably better then.  Good tarpit actually.

Additional revelations:  Holy cow I just read that Goonhammer tactics article.  Those Agendas are super good!  That would've given my Bullgors an extra attack for the rest of their game.....until the Frostlord came and erased them in one round of combat that is.  But excellent for the future.  Don't know how I missed those.

Edited by Lord Krungharr
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Hi Everyone, 

First time in the realm of Chaos in these forums. 

So I've got the chance to get my brother into the hobby and join our plastic crack addiction. We're gonna have a game over TTS soon (as we live in different countries) to give him an intro to the game. I showed him some models and he ended up liking the look of Tzeentch the most, especially the Lord of Change. 

I'd like to get a 1250pt list for him that sort of encompasses the magic, shooting and even the melee potential of the army. I was thinking something like this: 

- LoC
- Gaunt Summoner on disc

- Chaos Marauders x20
- Acolytes x10

- Flamers x3
- Tzangor Enlightened x6

1240 / 1250

This list is basically just from the very limited understanding of the army that I have. I wanted to include the LoC as he liked the model so much and I thought with the Gaunt Summoner, he would get to use the pink horror summon and shenanigans that come with it. Marauders are there to basically all but guarantee the charge, acolytes just for cheap battleline. Flamers and Tzangor are there for showcasing shooting and melee respectively. 

What do you all think? Obviously its an intro game so there doesn't have to be loads of synergy and I would actually prefer not to have lots of overlapping things to worry about. I doubt we will even play with Covens, command traits or artefacts in this first game, just to reduce the amount of mental tax needed to remember all these things. Probably just stick with the base allegiance abilities minus the Gifts of Worship ability (as again this may be too much). 

Anyone have any other suggestions for a list? What about changing the Tzangor x 6 to Tzangor Enlightened on disc x 3? To have something speedy? Anyone else have experience with into games using Tzeentch and did you / do you recommend just sticking to the base allegiance abilities for now? 

Thanks for any help!

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8 hours ago, Heijoshin said:

Hi Everyone, 

First time in the realm of Chaos in these forums. 

So I've got the chance to get my brother into the hobby and join our plastic crack addiction. We're gonna have a game over TTS soon (as we live in different countries) to give him an intro to the game. I showed him some models and he ended up liking the look of Tzeentch the most, especially the Lord of Change. 

I'd like to get a 1250pt list for him that sort of encompasses the magic, shooting and even the melee potential of the army. I was thinking something like this: 

- LoC
- Gaunt Summoner on disc

- Chaos Marauders x20
- Acolytes x10

- Flamers x3
- Tzangor Enlightened x6

1240 / 1250

This list is basically just from the very limited understanding of the army that I have. I wanted to include the LoC as he liked the model so much and I thought with the Gaunt Summoner, he would get to use the pink horror summon and shenanigans that come with it. Marauders are there to basically all but guarantee the charge, acolytes just for cheap battleline. Flamers and Tzangor are there for showcasing shooting and melee respectively. 

What do you all think? Obviously its an intro game so there doesn't have to be loads of synergy and I would actually prefer not to have lots of overlapping things to worry about. I doubt we will even play with Covens, command traits or artefacts in this first game, just to reduce the amount of mental tax needed to remember all these things. Probably just stick with the base allegiance abilities minus the Gifts of Worship ability (as again this may be too much). 

Anyone have any other suggestions for a list? What about changing the Tzangor x 6 to Tzangor Enlightened on disc x 3? To have something speedy? Anyone else have experience with into games using Tzeentch and did you / do you recommend just sticking to the base allegiance abilities for now? 

Thanks for any help!

I highly recommend to NOT start with 1250 points for intro games. It is too much to think about. In my limited experience I noticed that

- 500 points is enough

- keep an eye on equally large armies

- show some of the basics of the armies used, ie magic and shotting for Tzeentch,...

- don´t worry about army composition or battleline restrictions

- just use the warscrolls – no additional rules out of the battletomes – as you already described

 

That being said your list looks to be solid. I´d ditch the Acolytes though. With the Flamers this army is still legal if you´d take the Eternal Conflaguration. I´s also ditch the Gaunt Summoner and  used a Tzaangor Shaman instead. Spare points can be used to upgrade the Enlightened to Skyfires on Disc. Something like:

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)

Battleline
20 x Chaos Marauders (160)
- Flails

Units
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Total: 1230 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 70

This army offers some synergies (Tzaangor Shaman / Skyfires), is more "tzeentchian" regarding shooting and magic, has good mobility and fields enough bodies.

Skyfires instead of Enlightened because (a) they are shooty and (b) they are still good in melee.

 

 

 

Edited by Hannibal
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