AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, Magic Magpie said:

Hey there! Been a lurker for a while and finally played my first game of AoS a couple weeks ago so I figured I would finally join! I'm looking for some advice on my list. Long story short, my first game went poorly for my Arcanites. I would say that most of this was due to some fundamental misunderstanding of the rules on my part and some poor dice rolls early on. However, I think my list wasn't well suited for the situation, so I am hoping to come back stronger next time!

I bought the Arcanite battle box a couple of years ago and basically fielded that in a 1000 point game against my buddy's Ironjawz. My army had a Tzaangor Shaman, some Skyfires, some Enlightened, a unit of Acolytes and a 20 block of Tzaangors. The Ironjawz had some Brutes, Gore-gruntas, but most importantly, a Megaboss with an artifact that gave him a 2+ save. Although most of my misfortune was my own (forgetting unit rules and initially misunderstanding how turns work), in retrospect I don't think my list would have fared too well against the Megaboss even if I had been on my game.

My main takeaways are:

• Tzeentch seems like it is best played with as many wizards as you can cram into a list, and a lone Tzaangor Shaman doesn't seem like it makes the cut.
• A lot of rend destroys Tzeentch troops! Similarly, I needed more rend (or mortal wounds) in my list.
• A 20 block of Tzaangors is really great but probably overkill in a 1000 point game.
• The potential for six spells a turn means that I might have enough points to summon something in round 2 or 3! Unfortunately I might need to go get some more Horrors, as I think all I could summon right now would be Screamers. They don't seem particularly threatening, but some last-minute objective stealing might be in the cards!

Assuming these points are correct, I have whipped up a new list for next time:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battlelines
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 84

I think this list should work better for a few reasons:

• This army casts four spells a round instead of one, and all of them can deal mortal wounds. They will also be more reliable with Beacon of Sorcery.
• The Chainfire Amulet seems pretty great when combined with the Lord of Change. With 2d6 (7 average) attacks from the Rod of Sorcery it's likely that one will come up a 6, not to mention I can dump my fate dice results of 6 here since I have no Skyfires. Rend on normal attacks is great too!
• More accurate Acolytes means more likely to land attacks that rend, which is a plus.
• Horrors to help bog down the Megaboss or Gore-gruntas will be much appreciated.

I would love to hear any and all thoughts! Since I am still so new to AoS, any general advice would also be appreciated.  

Great read and very interesting to hear your understanding of the faction as a new player. I can't help much but I'll be reading the answers to this post Glad you posted.

[schwabbele]

QQs:how hard is it to paint the acolytes with their shields glued on? 

[Magic Magpie]

5 hours ago, schwabbele said:

QQs:how hard is it to paint the acolytes with their shields glued on? 

In my experience, it's a lot easier to paint with the shields off. The shields create some awkward angles for brushes. Painting the shields and the model separately and gluing them together later is really easy due to the way they fit together.

[PiotrW]

If I may share a random Tzeentch-related thought observation:

Is it me, or are the Horrors an insidiously costly unit? Real money-wise?

I mean, they have this "split into two lesser daemons when killed" ability. Which seems very fun But it means that, for every box of Pink Horrors, you need also to buy two boxes of Blue Horrors. Because every Pink Horror killed will turn into two Blue Horrors... Thankfully, Brimstone Horrors are included in the appropriate number in the Blue Horrors box - otherwise, it would mean you'd need to buy two boxes of those, too!

Overall, if we go by GW's officials prices, you'd need to pay 75 GBP to field 10 Pink Horrors. Quite a lot of money for a unit of 10 smallish critters...

Or am I missing something here?

[schwabbele]

6 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Or am I missing something here?

Haha I don't think so, I realized the same yesterday, my wallet will hate me this Saturday.

[Kasper]

8 hours ago, PiotrW said:

If I may share a random Tzeentch-related thought observation:

Is it me, or are the Horrors an insidiously costly unit? Real money-wise?

I mean, they have this "split into two lesser daemons when killed" ability. Which seems very fun But it means that, for every box of Pink Horrors, you need also to buy two boxes of Blue Horrors. Because every Pink Horror killed will turn into two Blue Horrors... Thankfully, Brimstone Horrors are included in the appropriate number in the Blue Horrors box - otherwise, it would mean you'd need to buy two boxes of those, too!

Overall, if we go by GW's officials prices, you'd need to pay 75 GBP to field 10 Pink Horrors. Quite a lot of money for a unit of 10 smallish critters...

Or am I missing something here?

Not only that, but when you field 30 Pinks you are looking at transporting 150 models. (30 Pinks + 60 Blues + 60 Brims). This can come as quite a surprise if you are new to the faction and tinkering with army lists. Thankfully they are on 25mm (Blues and Brims) so they dont take up as much space. It is also a significant number of models to paint. Luckily those little guys arent the toughest to make "table top ready".

Edited November 25, 2020 by Kasper

[Jabbuk]

So, after ordering the Battlebox and thinking of being smart, I told myself "hey, there's a Gaunt Summoner in there, I might as well buy some Blue Horrors, they're free with the warscroll ability" thinking he could summon those. This morning I looked at the warscroll and he can only summon pinks

So if I understand correctly, you can only summon pinks, but you can field blues and brims as part of your army, using points, is that correct?

[Gwendar]

11 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Or am I missing something here?

All the more reason I think they need to split 1-1-1 but.. that would cut their profits down a lot so I don't see it happening. Currently I have some competitive lists in mind that use 30-40 Pinks but I would never actually use that many in a real game as I would need to have twice as many Blues/Brims and a little extra for summoning potentially. That's simply because if you manage to bring back dead Pinks, they split again.. so you'll always need more than you actually think and it's the only issue I really have with Tzeentch at the minute.
 

21 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

So if I understand correctly, you can only summon pinks, but you can field blues and brims as part of your army, using points, is that correct?

The Gaunt only summons 5 Pinks with the ability, yes.. but those do split. You can always spend 10 Fate Points from any Tzeentch wizard to summon 10 Blues/Brims (why you would ever pick Brims for the same cost is beyond me). You can add in 10 Blues for 100 points or 10 Brims for 60, but only Pinks are battleline.

[PiotrW]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

Not only that, but when you field 30 Pinks you are looking at transporting 150 models. (30 Pinks + 60 Blues + 60 Brims). This can come as quite a surprise if you are new to the faction and tinkering with army lists. Thankfully they are on 25mm (Blues and Brims) so they dont take up as much space. It is also a significant number of models to paint. Luckily those little guys arent the toughest to make "table top ready".

Heh. It beats even the Skaven armies with the hordes of Clanrats...

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

The Gaunt only summons 5 Pinks with the ability, yes.. but those do split. You can always spend 10 Fate Points from any Tzeentch wizard to summon 10 Blues/Brims (why you would ever pick Brims for the same cost is beyond me). You can add in 10 Blues for 100 points or 10 Brims for 60, but only Pinks are battleline.

Ah, you're right - he only summons 5 of them You know, I looked into Pinks because I want to include a Gaunt in my StD army (I gave in and I'm building it...) and I wanted to give him another option for summoning (so far, I have Furies and Daemonettes). A box of Blues + Brims and half of a box of Pinks... that I can afford.

BTW. I know I asked about this before, but I want to make sure: Gaunt Summoner (the non-Disk version) has Slaves to Darkness keyword. So, I can use him in an StD army, right? Even though he doesn't appear on StD army lists in the Warscroll Builder?

[Kasper]

23 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

The Gaunt only summons 5 Pinks with the ability, yes.. but those do split. You can always spend 10 Fate Points from any Tzeentch wizard to summon 10 Blues/Brims (why you would ever pick Brims for the same cost is beyond me). You can add in 10 Blues for 100 points or 10 Brims for 60, but only Pinks are battleline.

I have been searching high and low as to understand why you can pick between 10 Blues or 10 Brims for the same Fate Point cost. I thought it was a mistake for sure. I cant see an arguement for EVER picking 10 Brims. Even if you want more damage output in melee, it would be better to pick Blues and fire more shots in the shooting phase - Same damage in the end. You just get 10 free wounds by picking Blues. 

[Gwendar]

11 minutes ago, PiotrW said:

BTW. I know I asked about this before, but I want to make sure: Gaunt Summoner (the non-Disk version) has Slaves to Darkness keyword. So, I can use him in an StD army, right? Even though he doesn't appear on StD army lists in the Warscroll Builder?

Not sure on that one... I know he's a Gaunt Summoner "of Tzeentch" but those keywords would mean he can part of StD an not be an ally.. or so I would assume.
 

1 minute ago, Kasper said:

I have been searching high and low as to understand why you can pick between 10 Blues or 10 Brims for the same Fate Point cost. I thought it was a mistake for sure. I cant see an arguement for EVER picking 10 Brims. Even if you want more damage output in melee, it would be better to pick Blues and fire more shots in the shooting phase - Same damage in the end. You just get 10 free wounds by picking Blues. 

Yeah I can only assume it was for people that forgot to bring their Blues..? I seriously don't understand it and I think they need to be 5-6 FP. You can only summon once per phase anyway, so you wouldn't even need to worry about saving FP and summoning 2-3 units at once.

[Kasper]

3 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah I can only assume it was for people that forgot to bring their Blues..? I seriously don't understand it and I think they need to be 5-6 FP. You can only summon once per phase anyway, so you wouldn't even need to worry about saving FP and summoning 2-3 units at once.

I havent ever summoned more than once, but I have missed this rule! I thought it was unlimited just like Seraphon.

It seems odd though,  I mean by that token why cant you summon 10 Blues/Brims for the cost of 10 Pinks?  10 Brims should certainly drop in FP value. On the flip side if they get too cheap it would be a no brainer in most cases to summon in 10 Brims every turn to act as a speedbump while you grind to 20 FP for 10 Pinks.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Kasper

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

 

The Gaunt only summons 5 Pinks with the ability, yes.. but those do split. You can always spend 10 Fate Points from any Tzeentch wizard to summon 10 Blues/Brims (why you would ever pick Brims for the same cost is beyond me). You can add in 10 Blues for 100 points or 10 Brims for 60, but only Pinks are battleline.

That's great. Yeah I looked at the summoning table just now and I think that's just what I'll do. I'll summon 10 blues for 10pts. And I also totally agree about why I would ever want to summon brims for the same points, lol.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Jabbuk

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

I havent ever summoned more than once, but I have missed this rule! I thought it was unlimited just like Seraphon.

Please don't get me started on Seraphon today, I can't handle it 😅. I'm just ready for the December FAQ where Be'lakor goes up to 280 and things like Tzaangors stay the same or decrease by 10 while Kroak and Skinks\Skink Priests only go up 20 points 🙃

"There's no tournament data" despite TTS being an accurate enough source of all your balancing needs. Every now and then you get people running ridiculous lists that they would never actually buy like 14 Chariots in CoS or 10 Cockatrices in BoC (although Mumford actually did buy that many).. but 45 Blightkings and 6+ Salamanders are things that I know plenty of people actually have. Rant over.



Anyway, signed up for Hammertime 6; a 1-day 3-rounder starting at 7am. Thinking about trying out a casting/shooting HA list this go-round so here's a rough draft:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Aether-eater Host (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Tome of Eyes (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 81
 

Basically using my own version of something Joe Krier has been running. Basically just mixing the high casts and turning Kairos into a 4-cast turret with RR's with some shooting by creating a mobile gun platform with the Exalted + Fatemaster (hit RR's and to summon 6 Screamers in front of the Flamers) + Fateskimmer (+1 to wound for the Flamers and -1 to be hit the Screamers/Flamers).

Still need testing to be done on it.. I'm really not sure on the Tome but if I can pull myself away from WoW for a day this weekend I'll see if I can get some test games in.

Edited November 25, 2020 by Gwendar

[Paniere]

14 hours ago, PiotrW said:

If I may share a random Tzeentch-related thought observation:

Is it me, or are the Horrors an insidiously costly unit? Real money-wise?

I mean, they have this "split into two lesser daemons when killed" ability. Which seems very fun But it means that, for every box of Pink Horrors, you need also to buy two boxes of Blue Horrors. Because every Pink Horror killed will turn into two Blue Horrors... Thankfully, Brimstone Horrors are included in the appropriate number in the Blue Horrors box - otherwise, it would mean you'd need to buy two boxes of those, too!

Overall, if we go by GW's officials prices, you'd need to pay 75 GBP to field 10 Pink Horrors. Quite a lot of money for a unit of 10 smallish critters...

Or am I missing something here?

GW says that you  are not forced into buying blues/brims, just use the "petty vengeance" rule (5+ MW when removing a pink). GW also knows you won't

[PiotrW]

33 minutes ago, Paniere said:

GW says that you  are not forced into buying blues/brims, just use the "petty vengeance" rule (5+ MW when removing a pink). GW also knows you won't

Oh, of course I wouldn't use it The idea of a unit that grows in numbers exponentially the more the enemy tries to kill it, is just too fun

It would be even funnier if Brims weren't tied into pairs, but also would be separate models. I know I said that the amount of money spent would be insane, then - but just imagine that on the table

... especially in a game against an opponent that would be encountering these things (and their rules) for the first time. I just can the helpless opponent gazing at a growing multi-colour horde and shouting: "What the hell is going on???????".

[Paniere]

The splitting mechanic is indeed both strong and fun. The only counterside , besides $$$ cost, is that in a tournament setting with a set time limit of 2 hours and a half usually, it will slow you down making it hard to finish all the 5 turns

[Paniere]

   

   

                                                                         🔺

Try Multitoudinous host deploying 40 pinks like this, then casting pendulum where the arrow stands, regrowing units with 1s on BS, lifeswarm and batallion ability. GG

[Gwendar]

44 minutes ago, Paniere said:

   

   

                                                                         🔺

Try Multitoudinous host deploying 40 pinks like this, then casting pendulum where the arrow stands, regrowing units with 1s on BS, lifeswarm and batallion ability. GG

Yeah I proposed a list like that awhile back after speaking about it on Discord.. might be one of the most oppressive/easy win lists in the game. Also means not many people would actually make any attempt at doing it IRL because of the amount of models you would require.

[Paniere]

30 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah I proposed a list like that awhile back after speaking about it on Discord.. might be one of the most oppressive/easy win lists in the game. Also means not many people would actually make any attempt at doing it IRL because of the amount of models you would require.

I played it just once last year when the new tome came out , the game took 5 hours so not doable in tornaments but great fun. My opponent skipped the movement phase from turn 2 onwards.

[RUNCMD]

11 hours ago, PiotrW said:

BTW. I know I asked about this before, but I want to make sure: Gaunt Summoner (the non-Disk version) has Slaves to Darkness keyword. So, I can use him in an StD army, right? Even though he doesn't appear on StD army lists in the Warscroll Builder?

Yeah you can take him. Just need to essentially "Ally" him in, but then it doesn't count as your ally points, if that makes sense?

[AverageBoss]

14 hours ago, PiotrW said:

Heh. It beats even the Skaven armies with the hordes of Clanrats...

Ah, you're right - he only summons 5 of them You know, I looked into Pinks because I want to include a Gaunt in my StD army (I gave in and I'm building it...) and I wanted to give him another option for summoning (so far, I have Furies and Daemonettes). A box of Blues + Brims and half of a box of Pinks... that I can afford.

BTW. I know I asked about this before, but I want to make sure: Gaunt Summoner (the non-Disk version) has Slaves to Darkness keyword. So, I can use him in an StD army, right? Even though he doesn't appear on StD army lists in the Warscroll Builder?

Just as you can take Tzeentch marked StD units in a DoT army, without them counting as allies (due to gaining the Tzeentch keyword), you can take a GS in a StD list without him counting as an ally because he has the StD keyword.

Allegiances are entirely keyword based, and do not care about which units are or are not in a specific book.

[Kasper]

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Please don't get me started on Seraphon today, I can't handle it 😅. I'm just ready for the December FAQ where Be'lakor goes up to 280 and things like Tzaangors stay the same or decrease by 10 while Kroak and Skinks\Skink Priests only go up 20 points 🙃

"There's no tournament data" despite TTS being an accurate enough source of all your balancing needs. Every now and then you get people running ridiculous lists that they would never actually buy like 14 Chariots in CoS or 10 Cockatrices in BoC (although Mumford actually did buy that many).. but 45 Blightkings and 6+ Salamanders are things that I know plenty of people actually have. Rant over.



Anyway, signed up for Hammertime 6; a 1-day 3-rounder starting at 7am. Thinking about trying out a casting/shooting HA list this go-round so here's a rough draft:
 

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch on Burning Chariot (140)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)
2 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (200)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Aether-eater Host (140)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Tome of Eyes (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 81
 

Basically using my own version of something Joe Krier has been running. Basically just mixing the high casts and turning Kairos into a 4-cast turret with RR's with some shooting by creating a mobile gun platform with the Exalted + Fatemaster (hit RR's and to summon 6 Screamers in front of the Flamers) + Fateskimmer (+1 to wound for the Flamers and -1 to be hit the Screamers/Flamers).

Still need testing to be done on it.. I'm really not sure on the Tome but if I can pull myself away from WoW for a day this weekend I'll see if I can get some test games in.

I have been looking at the Endless Spells for Tzeentch for a while.. My local shop got 30% off due to "black week" so I decided to buy the Tzeentch and S2D ones. I find the Tzeentch ones really awkward after studying the scrolls. While I get the point of Tome of Eyes, I just fear the risk of rolling double 2s or 6s when Kairos is casting 4 spells a turn. He could bracket himself pretty fast on his own without even considering any kind of chip damage, and you have no sustainability?

I thought of including the Burning Sigil in your other list. The idea of is controlling the midfield and while the Burning Sigil is random, I feel like it could maybe cause a zone (18" setup range and then 12" radius around that) that your opponent likely dont want to walk into. This could cover objectives/midfield somewhat. It is annoying that we have a limit on 3 endless spells though..

[Iron Fist]

Hi!

i have a friendly game saturday night. I wanted to try playing Archaon in tzeentch.
I hesitate between two list:

this one with the spell portal which combines very well with the spell of Kairos:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69
 

And this one which contains a lot more body:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69
 

What do you think?

Cheers!

[Kasper]

17 minutes ago, Iron Fist said:

Hi!

i have a friendly game saturday night. I wanted to try playing Archaon in tzeentch.
I hesitate between two list:

this one with the spell portal which combines very well with the spell of Kairos:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69
 

And this one which contains a lot more body:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 69
 

What do you think?

Cheers!

Why Guild of Summoners? I would go Host Arcanum in a list like this. Switch 10 Pinks to Screamers and include Portal + Geminids.