AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Kasper]

4 hours ago, Ekaan92 said:

Hi fellow tzeentch Players! I'm mainly a S2D player, But my favorite god is tzeentch, so I've dipped my toes in the book a little bit, but thought I could use some advice on my lists if anyone is feeling up for it  

My main goal is to run Archaon in host of duplicitous , so far I have two lists (very simmiliar) 

  Hide contents

List 1:
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Host Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact:  Brand of the Split Daemon
-Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change:  Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Endless Spells
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Points 1980/2000, 8 drops.

My 2nd list (Very Simmiliar) :
 

  Hide contents

List 2:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Host Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact:  Brand of the Split Daemon
-Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Archaon (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality


Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
5x Chaos Warriors (90)
- Hand Weapons & Shields

Units
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Endless Spells
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Points 2000/2000 , 7 drops

Does anyone have any tips on alternate units/spell choices?  

I would consider Hosts Arcanum. You get a free 6" move with Archaon and you also get 6 Screamers that you can send forward to screen or grab an objective (in an army that lacks bodies) while you buff up Archaon and force your opponent to do something about him. Not entirely sure about the spell on the Sorc Lord, but I would personally run something like this. 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Archaon the Everchosen (800)
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 68 

 

DD the Reckless Abandon agenda to give Archaon +1 to all attacks. Arcane Transformation to give him another attack on Slayer of Kings. Infusion Arcanum to give him +1 hit/wound on all attacks. Daemonic Power to reroll all hits and wounds. Oracular Visions to reroll his 3+ save. Once hes in you can throw out Geminids to make stuff -2 to hit in combat against him.   

With Hosts Arcanum you are basically looking at a 20" move in turn 1 plus a charge of whatever your DD rolls (likely secured a 10"+ charge) to really get him stuck in. 

Edited November 17, 2020 by Kasper

[Kasper]

@Gwendar Been playing 5 games in a combination of IRL/TTS recently with the "control list" and it is a lot of fun! There is so much depth to the list, and it certainly isnt a list that plays itself unlike many other armies where you just slap them on the table and they will do all the work for you by default. I really like that you have such a huge toolbox so you almost have something against any given matchup - This is generally my issue with AoS - Where I play we typically make an "all comers list" instead of tailoring our list based on what we are gonna play against. This creates super frustrating situations at times where you have a list that dont really have a lot of tools against the given army it is gonna face. I havent felt like this yet with this list yet, since there is a tool for pretty much any job. 

Yesterday I played vs FoS Seraphon with Kroak package, 1 set of Skink heroes, Slann, 40 Skinks, 30 Skinks, 2 Bastiladons and Spellportal. Those 7 boardwide unbinds with +2 is super frustrating to play against! I also really hate Bastiladons with their immense threat range - Its almost impossible to hide from them, where as the Skinks can be screened easily.

I outdropped him and opt'd to go first as we deployed our units - We played on Battle for the Pass but noticed his Skink heroes were rather far forward - So I deployed in such a way that I could 2+ Spellportal with the Blue Scribes and then DD 11 a Gift of Change into his Skink Priest right away. Used my Be'lakor on one of his Bastiladons in case he got the double, meant I likely wouldnt have to fear being dropped by 2 Bastiladons shooting twice in 2 turns.

I won priority and managed to DD 9 a Wind of Chaos into his 40 Skinks. It did something stupid like 27 MWs. I love this spell against hordes! I rolled kinda hot on some of the 6s for D3 MWs. His face was priceless when he saw his 40 Skinks decimated in no time. The remaining ran to battleshock.  I moved some Horrors + Kairics up to shoot his other 30 Skinks and reduced them significantly and he basically called it already there. I dont think it was entirely over, but his Kroak was sat so far back that I could easily cap the 2 middle objectives without getting within 22" of Kroak. I had no intention of pushing to his side of the board, although by turn 2 I had 25 fate points and could easily have ran my Blue Scribes up to summon 10 Pinks 9" away from his objective and then attempted a charge, or I could have bolstered one of the other objectives with another 50 Wounds. He basically only had 2 Bastiladons to deal any kind of damage by now, and even though they wreck Daemons, they arent clearing 10 Pinks any time soon. The score would have been 10-2 by the end of turn 2 and he couldnt really get to mine, so the game was probably over.  

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Great-Bray Shaman (100) (Allies)
Be'Lakor (240) (Allies)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 79

Some general thoughts/questions

Be'lakor

Im really not entirely sure how Im meant to play Be'lakor once he is on the table and done his thing. I feel like he is "pretty much just there", hanging back. It is rare I have gotten Enfeeble off.  Bastiladons would easily roast him since he is a Daemon, so it seemed pointless to run him forward - Maybe he could have just soaked some damage so my Horrors would have been more healthy? I decided to just keep him back and had him zone out a large part of my backline. My opponent could have teleported 40 Skinks in his turn 1 into the top side of my zone, but all he could do was shoot Be'lakor and then his Skinks were stranded near me and ready to be blasted, or lose all their buffs for his next turn, meaning they are kinda worthless. Seemed like a decent bait which he didnt take. Maybe his purpose is more against combat armies where he can move up behind a screen and cast Enfeeble on some combat unit?

Changecaster

Im really not sure about this guy. Again, Im really defensive against shooting armies. I feel like he's just sitting back on his Balewind, not in reach of anything. At least he is generating 2-3 Fate Points per turn quite reliable. I played against a Sureheart SCE list where he could sit behind screens and blast, but against any ranged army he's just sitting back? Maybe Im too afraid of losing the guy.

Great-Bray Shaman

I couldnt really decide between trying to Devolve something or just straight up casting Gift of Change to ensure a low wound hero would die. My fear is using Devolve through the Spellportal, only for my opponent to roll double 1s on the move.. The fact he is there really put a lot of fear into my opponent though. It was the first game with this guy over the Magister on a Disc. I think on a "normal" battleplan it would be easier to pull something forward and have my dudes be within 18" of the target - There is just so much space on Battle for the Pass. He might shine later on in the game where you can pull something off an objective, or pull a unit outside of a buff aura like HGB etc. Imagine pulling HGB outside of their 4+ spell ignore aura and then get blasted!

Blue Scribes

I keep forgetting to learn spells on a 4+. I probably wouldnt do it on every single spell, but learning stuff like Wind of Chaos is quite huge, since he can 2+ it through the Spellportal the following turns, if my opponent doesnt decide to dispell it. Thats insane against horde units like 40 Skinks. 

Fold Reality

I have actually yet to cast this spell on my Horrors. Might be due to inexperience, but how aggressive are you with casting this? I had 1 unit that was basically 2 blues and 18 brims on an objective. I thought about throwing Fold Reality on them since there are "only" 22 wounds remanining. I just fear rolling a 1 and losing the objective, but rolling anything else, returning at least 1 banner guy and then DD 1 on the battleshock would really bolster the unit immensely. I guess you really need to calculate if you NEED the additional wounds to win the game vs playing it safe. Any indication for when you cast Fold Reality or you just risk it for the biscuit?

Edited November 17, 2020 by Kasper

[Jabbuk]

Hello friends,

I've been wanting to get into Tzeentch for almost a year now since I really like the aesthetic of the mortals and with the announcement of the new Battleforce Box for Tzeentch, I'm gonna take the plunge!

The content of the box clocks at 1200pts and is a nice starting point. Any advice in which direction I should go to add to that base? I was thinking a box of pink+blues+brims for the free summon from Gaunt Summoner. But then what? Screamers are really good I think?

Thanks for your help in advance guys

Edit: The content of the box is:

- LoC/Kairos

- Gaunt Summoner

- 20 Kayric Acolytes

- 10 Tzaangorz

- 3 Tzaangorz on discs (enlighten or skyfire)

Edited November 17, 2020 by Jabbuk
Added content of box

[Ragest]

32 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

Hello friends,

I've been wanting to get into Tzeentch for almost a year now since I really like the aesthetic of the mortals and with the announcement of the new Battleforce Box for Tzeentch, I'm gonna take the plunge!

The content of the box clocks at 1200pts and is a nice starting point. Any advice in which direction I should go to add to that base? I was thinking a box of pink+blues+brims for the free summon from Gaunt Summoner. But then what? Screamers are really good I think?

Thanks for your help in advance guys

Edit: The content of the box is:

- LoC/Kairos

- Gaunt Summoner

- 20 Kayric Acolytes

- 10 Tzaangorz

- 3 Tzaangorz on discs (enlighten or skyfire)

You are going to need a Tzaangor Shaman for your dudes on disk, then pick a fatemaster and your hero side is done with the LoC.

Then you want to add some kairics for pyrofane cult or some tzaangors for transient form. I prefer the first one, so i will talk about that.

Buy another box of kairic and use 2x 10 and 1 x20, plus 1x Tzaangors and another box of Enlightened on disk to end with a unit of 6.

Then add Wytchfire coven batallion and its done, 1990 points.

If you like the way after some matches I recommend you to take off gaunt summoner for a magister, take off normal Tzaangors for 3x 20 kairics and add some endless that firmyour playstyle (I use gemini and direhorn from BoC)

Edited November 17, 2020 by Ragest

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

There is so much depth to the list, and it certainly isnt a list that plays itself unlike many other armies where you just slap them on the table and they will do all the work for you by default.

I really like that you have such a huge toolbox so you almost have something against any given matchup - This is generally my issue with AoS - Where I play we typically make an "all comers list" instead of tailoring our list based on what we are gonna play against. This creates super frustrating situations at times where you have a list that dont really have a lot of tools against the given army it is gonna face. I havent felt like this yet with this list yet, since there is a tool for pretty much any job. 

 

Some general thoughts/questions

Be'lakor

Im really not entirely sure how Im meant to play Be'lakor once he is on the table and done his thing. I feel like he is "pretty much just there", hanging back. It is rare I have gotten Enfeeble off.  Bastiladons would easily roast him since he is a Daemon, so it seemed pointless to run him forward - Maybe he could have just soaked some damage so my Horrors would have been more healthy? I decided to just keep him back and had him zone out a large part of my backline. My opponent could have teleported 40 Skinks in his turn 1 into the top side of my zone, but all he could do was shoot Be'lakor and then his Skinks were stranded near me and ready to be blasted, or lose all their buffs for his next turn, meaning they are kinda worthless. Seemed like a decent bait which he didnt take. Maybe his purpose is more against combat armies where he can move up behind a screen and cast Enfeeble on some combat unit?

Changecaster

Im really not sure about this guy. Again, Im really defensive against shooting armies. I feel like he's just sitting back on his Balewind, not in reach of anything. At least he is generating 2-3 Fate Points per turn quite reliable. I played against a Sureheart SCE list where he could sit behind screens and blast, but against any ranged army he's just sitting back? Maybe Im too afraid of losing the guy.

Great-Bray Shaman

I couldnt really decide between trying to Devolve something or just straight up casting Gift of Change to ensure a low wound hero would die. My fear is using Devolve through the Spellportal, only for my opponent to roll double 1s on the move.. The fact he is there really put a lot of fear into my opponent though. It was the first game with this guy over the Magister on a Disc. I think on a "normal" battleplan it would be easier to pull something forward and have my dudes be within 18" of the target - There is just so much space on Battle for the Pass. He might shine later on in the game where you can pull something off an objective, or pull a unit outside of a buff aura like HGB etc. Imagine pulling HGB outside of their 4+ spell ignore aura and then get blasted!

Blue Scribes

I keep forgetting to learn spells on a 4+. I probably wouldnt do it on every single spell, but learning stuff like Wind of Chaos is quite huge, since he can 2+ it through the Spellportal the following turns, if my opponent doesnt decide to dispell it. Thats insane against horde units like 40 Skinks. 

Fold Reality

I have actually yet to cast this spell on my Horrors. Might be due to inexperience, but how aggressive are you with casting this? I had 1 unit that was basically 2 blues and 18 brims on an objective. I thought about throwing Fold Reality on them since there are "only" 22 wounds remanining. I just fear rolling a 1 and losing the objective, but rolling anything else, returning at least 1 banner guy and then DD 1 on the battleshock would really bolster the unit immensely. I guess you really need to calculate if you NEED the additional wounds to win the game vs playing it safe. Any indication for when you cast Fold Reality or you just risk it for the biscuit?

Funny, a few people have disagreed with your 1st point and have said that my list is "auto-play" like Changehost Flamer spam, which I find pretty funny. It plays on a knifes edge and 1 little thing going wrong can see you lose outright. But yeah, I've only ever make all-comers lists even when I was playing locally in a meta with nearly no shooting.. simply because I plan to play at large events. It still can really struggle vs shooting as all of your Heroes are the crux, Kairos in particular.. but I haven't played against a lot of heavy shooting yet or if I have it's only been 1-2 units that get shut down with Be'lakor. It does have a lot of tools, but at the end of the day it's super fragile to almost anything.

Be'lakor
He typically gets used as something that can cap lightly guarded objectives or take out a squishy/not very punchy hero. Usually he's straddling one of my flanks, especially vs armies with teleports\fast movers. You're paying 240 points for the ability to shut down a unit first and foremost, and he doesn't even need to be alive for that to happen. Anything after that I consider a bonus, like his 2 spellcasts (just keep in mind he doesn't get the unretreatable bonus or the RR's since he is an ally). It sounds like you made just fine use of him really.. I'd rather people shoot at him than my horrors or other heroes.

Changecaster
Neither am I, hence why in my updated list I've dropped him. Far too often he sits on that BW throwing out spells that on average for me do 1-3 MW's each. If I was rolling 4+ everytime I would find value but.. usually he only pays off with the ability to keep casting spells on a 9+ which means I can get 4 FP's out of him. At the end of the day, he's a 110 point wizard (150 if you count the BW) with good potential, but it's very swingy potential. That 24" works just fine for me since this army is all about controlling the midboard, not reaching into the back of the table outside of Spellportal.

Great-Bray Shaman
While I haven't used it yet, I think the Devolve setup probably works better in HA because you can combine that with the free 6" move you get.. even better if you run some Enlightened/Skyfires. 9/10 times I'm going to be casting Gift or Winds of Chaos through the portal.. but pulling something off an objective or buff range like you said is a great way to use it although you have to be very mindful of your positioning since it moves towards your closest unit/model. This list goes very deep into controlling the midboard so any tools to expedite things being in that range is nice.. combat armies are usually already there since they want to hit you, but shooting based stuff can easily sit back which where this comes in.

Blue Scribes
Honestly I don't think I've ever done it.. mostly out of forgetting to but I don't think in my 15+ games with the list that it's ever caused me to lose. Most of the time it just isn't super helpful, but I do agree with Winds of Chaos it would be... I think I need to add it to my spellcasting rotation notes to have him learn it 😅

Fold Reality
I'm usually only casting it if I have 15-20 or less Horrors left in a unit and I can risk not rolling a 1.. by that I mean that if I think those 15-20 can survive that combat phase and I have a CP to spend on them then I may just do that so I don't risk them going away altogether and freeing up my squishy heroes to be punched. That said, if you create layers of screens then that isn't a worry. For example, I played against an Ogor list in the GT I'm in Sunday night and lost about 12 horrors that were tying up a single Ironguts thanks to rolling a 1.. now I was able to get that objective back since I just killed him with a spell, but I had nothing else threatening that part of the board for that turn so I felt I could risk it. Especially since I've been able to get 10 Blues a turn to replace them with.


Glad you've been running it and enjoying it... once this GT is over I'm going to be practicing with 2 different versions and see what I like. The Changeling and Ogroid are both 2 wizards that I think will be more beneficial than the Magister/Changecaster.. although I would hate to lose that 2nd fast hero, it wouldn't be detrimental. The Changeling with Geminids is going to allow me to get things down to -3 to hit, which can go to -5 to hit and -2 to wound if a unit also gets Treason, Arcane Suggestion and Enfeeble thrown onto it. Basically it's just another unit shutdown at the cost of some potential damage that the Changecaster would have provided. Bolt of Change doesn't do much for me, so swapping him for an Ogroid with a better spell for Kairos to cast and being a reasonable beatstick like Be'lakor seems better to me.

[Ganigumo]

@Kasper The Great-bray shaman's devolve really pulls it weight if you have some screamers/skyfires/enlightened. Those units fly and are so fast that pulling something off an objective makes it very easy to steal.

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

You are going to need a Tzaangor Shaman for your dudes on disk, then pick a fatemaster and your hero side is done with the LoC.

Then you want to add some kairics for pyrofane cult or some tzaangors for transient form. I prefer the first one, so i will talk about that.

Buy another box of kairic and use 2x 10 and 1 x20, plus 1x Tzaangors and another box of Enlightened on disk to end with a unit of 6.

Then add Wytchfire coven batallion and its done, 1990 points.

If you like the way after some matches I recommend you to take off gaunt summoner for a magister, take off normal Tzaangors for 3x 20 kairics and add some endless that firmyour playstyle (I use gemini and direhorn from BoC)

That's so cool, man! Thank you very much for the advice. You didn't mention anything about horrors. Is it because I said I would buy those already or they don't fit into this direction? If you could clarify that, I'd really appreciate it.

[Ragest]

2 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

That's so cool, man! Thank you very much for the advice. You didn't mention anything about horrors. Is it because I said I would buy those already or they don't fit into this direction? If you could clarify that, I'd really appreciate it.

You can try to summon somr horrors aswell, yes, but arcanites are not focused on that. But if you want to try daemons in a future is cool to start thinking on them

[Kasper]

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Funny, a few people have disagreed with your 1st point and have said that my list is "auto-play" like Changehost Flamer spam, which I find pretty funny. It plays on a knifes edge and 1 little thing going wrong can see you lose outright. But yeah, I've only ever make all-comers lists even when I was playing locally in a meta with nearly no shooting.. simply because I plan to play at large events. It still can really struggle vs shooting as all of your Heroes are the crux, Kairos in particular.. but I haven't played against a lot of heavy shooting yet or if I have it's only been 1-2 units that get shut down with Be'lakor. It does have a lot of tools, but at the end of the day it's super fragile to almost anything.

That sounds so crazy to me. A lot of armies are super easy to pilot and they pretty much play themselves or are super straight forward once you have slammed them down on the table. I think people get a bit frustrated playing against this kind of list because it is very unique - Typically when you play AoS you get to play your army the way you want to - It might not be good enough and your opponents army might be superior in combat/counters yours, but this list basically tells your opponent "no" or asks a question a bunch of times, which isnt how AoS is typically played. It also got a ton of tools for almost any situation - I havent really had good usage out of Wind of Chaos until now, but good grief is it insane when you are hitting a horde unit and not 5-10 model units.

 

Im surprised there is nearly no shooting in your local meta.. We have quite a few that play Stormcast and sometimes opt for a shooty list, Seraphon players with Thunder Lizard (Bastiladons in that are so insane vs Tzeentch), some KO and also some LRL with Sentinels. I think this list is significantly better in a more combat/magic focused meta since you dont have to worry as much about keeping your stuff way back. In my matchup against Seraphon I almost couldnt get my heroes within range of the objectives in fear of 2 Bastiladons just ripping apart Kairos or removing 2 squishy heroes per turn.

 

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Great-Bray Shaman
While I haven't used it yet, I think the Devolve setup probably works better in HA because you can combine that with the free 6" move you get.. even better if you run some Enlightened/Skyfires. 9/10 times I'm going to be casting Gift or Winds of Chaos through the portal.. but pulling something off an objective or buff range like you said is a great way to use it although you have to be very mindful of your positioning since it moves towards your closest unit/model. This list goes very deep into controlling the midboard so any tools to expedite things being in that range is nice.. combat armies are usually already there since they want to hit you, but shooting based stuff can easily sit back which where this comes in.

Combining additional movement with Devolve will certainly make it stronger, but I do think sometimes it is worth implementing tricks that dont necessarily always grant you a huge bonus, but instead provides a threat that your opponent needs to worry about. I used to always include teleport mechanics in my lists - Not because they always did a whole lot of work for me, but it messed with my opponent's head since he constantly had to think about zoning out the possiblity of me deepstriking something. Not every army got a ton of cheap chaff, so by simply having a teleport mechanic I suddenly "wasted" alot of his forces that would otherwise be pushing against my army. I think this is another case of a trick where your opponent will go "Damn, if I roll a 10+ on the move, my unit is done for.. Better place it way back!" which already there typically gives you value. 

 

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Fold Reality
I'm usually only casting it if I have 15-20 or less Horrors left in a unit and I can risk not rolling a 1.. by that I mean that if I think those 15-20 can survive that combat phase and I have a CP to spend on them then I may just do that so I don't risk them going away altogether and freeing up my squishy heroes to be punched. That said, if you create layers of screens then that isn't a worry. For example, I played against an Ogor list in the GT I'm in Sunday night and lost about 12 horrors that were tying up a single Ironguts thanks to rolling a 1.. now I was able to get that objective back since I just killed him with a spell, but I had nothing else threatening that part of the board for that turn so I felt I could risk it. Especially since I've been able to get 10 Blues a turn to replace them with.

I guess it will just require some more getting used to. In my example I had 2 blues and 18 brims left on an objective. That isnt a lot of wounds. They would probably die to 2 Bastiladons shooting the following turn, where as getting additional Pinks and using a DD 1 would secure the objective for at least 2 rounds. Rolling a 1 meant he would get the objective. Guess it is tricky to figure out if it is worth it or not. 

 

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Glad you've been running it and enjoying it... once this GT is over I'm going to be practicing with 2 different versions and see what I like. The Changeling and Ogroid are both 2 wizards that I think will be more beneficial than the Magister/Changecaster.. although I would hate to lose that 2nd fast hero, it wouldn't be detrimental. The Changeling with Geminids is going to allow me to get things down to -3 to hit, which can go to -5 to hit and -2 to wound if a unit also gets Treason, Arcane Suggestion and Enfeeble thrown onto it. Basically it's just another unit shutdown at the cost of some potential damage that the Changecaster would have provided. Bolt of Change doesn't do much for me, so swapping him for an Ogroid with a better spell for Kairos to cast and being a reasonable beatstick like Be'lakor seems better to me

The Ogroid spell is actually kind of interesting. I like the idea of implementing some healing to keep Kairos alive and perhaps counter some chip damage that would otherwise bracket him by turn 2 (like Comet's Call). Going from a D6 MW spell to a secured 6 flat MW is pretty big when you are trying to snipe something.

 

Edit: I dont really see this list falling out of fashion anytime soon. I think it is currently at its worst against all the shooty lists that are really hot (at least in my playing field) - If things shift around and there is a much bigger focus on combat units, then I think it will only get better since you can comfortably sit back behind screens and dominate the midboard. I sometimes wish I had a screen or two of 10 Brims, especially to lock down my backline as I push forward, or simpy to layer up with screens against a potential double turn. 

 

I also cant really decide on my endless spells. I think Balewind Vortex is too good for the Changecaster, even if just for Fate Points. But as we talked about, sometimes the Changecaster is hot, sometimes he is not. I think thats a general theme with this list - Not every single piece is incredible against every single matchup, but the effects are powerful enough that it works regardless.

Im a bit uncertain of Balewind Vortex on the Magister on Disc and his "Magic-touched" ability. What if you cast Balewind Vortex with a double, then cast his Bolt of Change on a double, will he die then? Or can you just say you used up the extra spell from the Balewind (prior to casting obviously), instead of using his extra spellcast from "Magic-touched"? Otherwise Balewind could be reasonable on him so he can cast his -1 hit/wound and his Bolt of Change with extended range and securing he wont suicide. When you need to zoom across the table, you can just auto dispell the Balewind.

Spellportal is absolutely a must-take.

The third slot is kinda where Im uncertain. Geminids is great for getting extra MWs and stacking -1 to hit, especially since you dont care as much about it being thrown back at ya with the way the army plays. I havent tried Daemonrift yet. I really like the Palisade against a shooty meta and as we talked about it offers some options to really mess with your opponent coupled with a Spawn and HD no retreat.

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kasper

[Jacek]

18 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

That's so cool, man! Thank you very much for the advice. You didn't mention anything about horrors. Is it because I said I would buy those already or they don't fit into this direction? If you could clarify that, I'd really appreciate it.

Hi,

My advice:

Pink horrors are in "Start Collecting! Daemons of Tzeentch" box. It is way better to get 2-3 of those if you want daemons (cheaper in cash than buying separateley). Need to buy Blue (with brim in same box) horrors separately. Unless you find some really good deals somewhere?

[GrimDork]

Similar question to already asked, I have the Tzeentch half of Aether War.

Would the new battleforce box be a good buy to expand what I already have?

Thanks

[Craze]

1 minute ago, GrimDork said:

Similar question to already asked, I have the Tzeentch half of Aether War.

Would the new battleforce box be a good buy to expand what I already have?

Thanks

If you want to play Tzeentch Mortals + Big Chicken then it is the absolute perfect fit!

[Gwendar]

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

That sounds so crazy to me. A lot of armies are super easy to pilot and they pretty much play themselves or are super straight forward once you have slammed them down on the table. I think people get a bit frustrated playing against this kind of list because it is very unique - Typically when you play AoS you get to play your army the way you want to - It might not be good enough and your opponents army might be superior in combat/counters yours, but this list basically tells your opponent "no" or asks a question a bunch of times, which isnt how AoS is typically played. It also got a ton of tools for almost any situation - I havent really had good usage out of Wind of Chaos until now, but good grief is it insane when you are hitting a horde unit and not 5-10 model units.

I just wanted to run something that isn't really played.. which is a lot of wizards and debuffs. Some can complain that isn't fun to play against but I can also name 5+ other lists from various armies that "aren't fun to play against". End of the day I mostly just play competitive games and I personally enjoy playing against tough lists. Like I've said the before.. this list is super fragile and a double-turn against you can be really bad if Be'lakor or Kairos changing a dice roll are available.. nearly every game I've had has been 1 mistake away from a loss even if I play it nearly perfectly. I have the potential of playing vs the 3x3 Longstrike with 2 attacks each SCE list in the GT I'm in next round.. and if I do I'm pretty certain that's an auto-loss since this is super susceptible to shooting like that, but can't counter everything 😅
 

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

Im surprised there is nearly no shooting in your local meta..

In my matchup against Seraphon I almost couldnt get my heroes within range of the objectives in fear of 2 Bastiladons just ripping apart Kairos or removing 2 squishy heroes per turn.

 

Combining additional movement with Devolve will certainly make it stronger, but I do think sometimes it is worth implementing tricks that dont necessarily always grant you a huge bonus, but instead provides a threat that your opponent needs to worry about.

Yeah, Seraphon is rough if they have multiple threats (which obviously they usually do since everything is severely undercosted...) but Lumineth hasn't been an issue for me so far.. I've yet to play KO. I don't build lists for my local meta though, especially since I haven't played them since February thanks to Covid. I would never bring it unless they asked as I know they would struggle to play against it. 

Oh you're 100% correct, I'm just saying that in this list and it's updated brother I don't really have need for it and find the stacking of -'s to hit to be a bigger threat over moving something closer. It has value in the list for sure and you've made that clear for the reasons given. Just personally I would prefer more debuffs to better control midfield when they get that close.. at least when it comes to these HD ones.

 

9 hours ago, Kasper said:

I guess it will just require some more getting used to. In my example I had 2 blues and 18 brims left on an objective. That isnt a lot of wounds. They would probably die to 2 Bastiladons shooting the following turn, where as getting additional Pinks and using a DD 1 would secure the objective for at least 2 rounds. Rolling a 1 meant he would get the objective. Guess it is tricky to figure out if it is worth it or not. 

I sometimes wish I had a screen or two of 10 Brims, especially to lock down my backline as I push forward, or simpy to layer up with screens against a potential double turn. 

The third slot is kinda where Im uncertain. Geminids is great for getting extra MWs and stacking -1 to hit, especially since you dont care as much about it being thrown back at ya with the way the army plays. I havent tried Daemonrift yet. I really like the Palisade against a shooty meta and as we talked about it offers some options to really mess with your opponent coupled with a Spawn and HD no retreat.

The bottom line with Fold Reality is what risk you're willing to take. If you can risk it going off to get some Pinks back with no threat to something charging you then I'll do it if I have 20 or less. If they're still stuck in combat with something and my opponent goes next or has a chance with priority, then I'll probably keep them there since they'll be stuck in combat anyway which is better than them being freed up and having the ability to punch me if I haven't created a double layered screen. Lots of scenarios come into play with it as you're finding out.

I agree, and having not played against a ton of shooting other than Seraphon or 20-30 Lumineth Sentinels I know that's the weakness. I'm hopeful 3rd shifts the game back towards more melee, but that could also mean a list like this would get nerfed as a by-product. Time will tell... I think a change to how squishy heroes can be protected alone will change the shooting meta. Untamed Beasts are a popular pick to get a cheap pre-game move out there if that's something you want to look into.. one of my updated lists does include 10 Brims though for more zoning.

Endless spells are tough.. I really wish we could have just 1 more. Spellportal is absolutely a must have if you bring Kairos (or even a LoC probably) but I think the others are preference. I have a preference with Daemonrift since it's so absurdly strong against most armies and the ability to just auto-dispell it means it never comes back at me. Geminids can also pump out decent damage, but the debuffs can absolutely cripple units when combined with all the other -'s to hit/wound that I can easily get in the list. I have a 5 Wizard variant that I will be testing that has both, and another 6 Wizard one that drops Daemonrift just so I can see how it works without it.


Also, if you wanted to talk more list strat and get games in, Coachs discord is the best for it in my opinion: https://discord.gg/fHZySVrzEA

[RUNCMD]

On 11/10/2020 at 5:55 AM, Gwendar said:

I was fortunate enough to get a shoutout on The Honest Wargamers stats show today which was pretty neat.

I'm about to give this a listen! Nice work mate!

[Gwendar]

1 minute ago, RUNCMD said:

I'm about to give this a listen! Nice work mate!

I got a second one this week as well.. so I'm now jinxed to lose my last 2 games🤣
 

 

[RUNCMD]

@Gwendar LOL, if you lose your next few games we will know getting a shout out on the show is a no go!

[RUNCMD]

Hey all,

I have just posted my first Blog Entry (thanks to @Gwendar for the suggestion) and it focuses on how to start collecting and build a Tzeentch Army.

You can find it here:

This was mostly in response to a few people i've noticed asking the best way to start a Tzeentch army. So give it a read if you like. Also for happy for vets to wigh in on the post and highlight anything that may have been missed!

@GrimDork this might help you if you're interested in giving it a read!

 

[Kasper]

On 11/18/2020 at 5:12 PM, Gwendar said:

Also, if you wanted to talk more list strat and get games in, Coachs discord is the best for it in my opinion: https://discord.gg/fHZySVrzEA

I joined the server, but Im not super familiar with Discord. Didnt seem like there was a Tzeentch channel, only a general Chaos one?

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Kasper said:

I joined the server, but Im not super familiar with Discord. Didnt seem like there was a Tzeentch channel, only a general Chaos one?

Yeah, there isn't one for each army.. just start talking Tzeentch and people jump in.

[Jabbuk]

On 11/18/2020 at 10:01 PM, RUNCMD said:

Hey all,

I have just posted my first Blog Entry (thanks to @Gwendar for the suggestion) and it focuses on how to start collecting and build a Tzeentch Army.

You can find it here:

This was mostly in response to a few people i've noticed asking the best way to start a Tzeentch army. So give it a read if you like. Also for happy for vets to wigh in on the post and highlight anything that may have been missed!

@GrimDork this might help you if you're interested in giving it a read!

 

Great read. Thank you so much.

[Craze]

I have one question: If I summon a Lord of Change during the game can he pick a spell from the spell lore? If no, is this somewhere mentioned in FAQ or errata? Thanks!

[Paniere]

42 minutes ago, Craze said:

I have one question: If I summon a Lord of Change during the game can he pick a spell from the spell lore? If no, is this somewhere mentioned in FAQ or errata? Thanks!

Yes

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

I have one question: If I summon a Lord of Change during the game can he pick a spell from the spell lore? If no, is this somewhere mentioned in FAQ or errata? Thanks!

It is in the Core Rules FAQ:

[RUNCMD]

@Jabbuk, @Beer & Pretzels Gamer thought I would move the conversation back to this forum, as others can see it and also weigh in on the topic.

@Beer & Pretzels Gamer im not sure what points you were playing at for your game, but I think some of the best screens you can get in the game are Blue Horrors. Best part about them is that they just split and hold the enemy in place for longer than usual. I think that having maybe 1 or 2 of these, or even up to 3 Brim stone units.

If you're running something like a big pack of 30 Kairics, I'd highly recommend at least running a unit of Blues about an inch or maybe even 3 (depending on what your opponent has on the table) to be able to absorb whatever is infront. Honestly a big unit of 20 is also pretty amazing for this, or a unit of Pinks to really protect them.

The same can also be said for Tzaangors that are about an inch behind a unit of Brims. Have the Brims go infront, absorb anything that charges them, with the Tzaangors behind and then let the Tzaangors pile in after the enemy unit has attacked to be able to get the advantage.

There's also a lot to be said for having you Blues about 2 inches away from something like Kairics, spread out in a nice line, enemy unit charges, then they murder your Blues but when you place your brimgs down, the Brim has to be within 3" of where the original Blue was, so leaves you open to then position them a bit better or may a two model deep wall between you and the important unit you're screening.

I hope this helps.

 

Edit: added another line.

Edited November 24, 2020 by RUNCMD

[Magic Magpie]

Hey there! Been a lurker for a while and finally played my first game of AoS a couple weeks ago so I figured I would finally join! I'm looking for some advice on my list. Long story short, my first game went poorly for my Arcanites. I would say that most of this was due to some fundamental misunderstanding of the rules on my part and some poor dice rolls early on. However, I think my list wasn't well suited for the situation, so I am hoping to come back stronger next time!

I bought the Arcanite battle box a couple of years ago and basically fielded that in a 1000 point game against my buddy's Ironjawz. My army had a Tzaangor Shaman, some Skyfires, some Enlightened, a unit of Acolytes and a 20 block of Tzaangors. The Ironjawz had some Brutes, Gore-gruntas, but most importantly, a Megaboss with an artifact that gave him a 2+ save. Although most of my misfortune was my own (forgetting unit rules and initially misunderstanding how turns work), in retrospect I don't think my list would have fared too well against the Megaboss even if I had been on my game.

My main takeaways are:

• Tzeentch seems like it is best played with as many wizards as you can cram into a list, and a lone Tzaangor Shaman doesn't seem like it makes the cut.
• A lot of rend destroys Tzeentch troops! Similarly, I needed more rend (or mortal wounds) in my list.
• A 20 block of Tzaangors is really great but probably overkill in a 1000 point game.
• The potential for six spells a turn means that I might have enough points to summon something in round 2 or 3! Unfortunately I might need to go get some more Horrors, as I think all I could summon right now would be Screamers. They don't seem particularly threatening, but some last-minute objective stealing might be in the cards!

Assuming these points are correct, I have whipped up a new list for next time:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battlelines
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Tzaangors (180)

Total: 1000 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 84

I think this list should work better for a few reasons:

• This army casts four spells a round instead of one, and all of them can deal mortal wounds. They will also be more reliable with Beacon of Sorcery.
• The Chainfire Amulet seems pretty great when combined with the Lord of Change. With 2d6 (7 average) attacks from the Rod of Sorcery it's likely that one will come up a 6, not to mention I can dump my fate dice results of 6 here since I have no Skyfires. Rend on normal attacks is great too!
• More accurate Acolytes means more likely to land attacks that rend, which is a plus.
• Horrors to help bog down the Megaboss or Gore-gruntas will be much appreciated.

I would love to hear any and all thoughts! Since I am still so new to AoS, any general advice would also be appreciated.  

Edited November 24, 2020 by Magic Magpie
Forgot to add a reason why I think this list might be all right!