AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Semi necro but have you had time to get more games in with this build? I dont like the idea of the Skyfires because from my experience with them in BoC they were really lackluster and disappointing. I do get the speed and the long range snipe potential, but still. I feel like the horde clear spell from the Manticore looks much better on paper.

I thought about swapping out the Darkfire Daemonrift and instead include the Prismatic Palisade, especially since you can create 2 chaos spawns and set them up just within 3" of a unit, then cast the Palisade between the spawn and the enemy unit and really mess up with their pile-in since they likely wouldnt be allowed to do a pile-in due to the requirement of ending closer and due to HD they couldnt retreat either. You could effectively lock down a big blob of HGB (or anything really) in the middle of the map until the Palisade was dispelled. The Palisade also protects the Spawn from being sniped with shooting/magic due to blocking LoS.

Isnt Blue Scribes a little redundant in HD though? You already have the trait to give casters rerolls. Did you put it on the Manticore because you reckon it is the most tanky model due to the +1 save artefact? Just wondering why he got it over someone else, since he wont benefit from it himself. 

I have another scheduled for either tonight or thursday vs a Vostarg FS list. I feel Skyfires work better in Tzeentch for 2 reasons:

• DD potentially giving you 1-2 6's for the MW's on an important hero
• Discs getting +1 attack which makes them capable of throwing out ~20 damage vs a 4+ save

That can absolutely clear a lot of things.. plus they can go first for the RR's and don't have to wait to get hit first like Enlightened (assuming you aren't hiding them behind chaff). Enlightened can do twice as much potentially, but they're harder to use and aren't a big threat vs 5 wound heroes like Skyfires 24" bows are. But yeah, the full magic list has the Sorc Lord and that spell really shines sometimes. I think I did like.. 20-25 MW's to a unit of Stormvermin before and absolutely crippled them, but I was obviously rolling hot 😅.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of a Palisade but I like the idea. I think my worry is just that the list lacks some direct damage and that Daemonrift can usually net me d3+4-5 MW's when I throw it out there. I think I may give that a shot though as that sounds incredibly frustrating and thus incredibly funny to watch someone deal with.

The Scribes is there because he get's out important spells on that 2+ which can't be unbound, he's never using Boon. Usually that means he's casting the Spellportal for Kairos so he has 3 spells to blast into things with the 1 spell going through portal usually being Gift or Winds of Chaos. For me, he's the best model to have it other than the Changecaster; Kairos and the Scribes are both named and I would rather a high wound +1 save model have it over a small hero like the Magister. I'll likely change his spell to Glimpse since Kairos is usually casting Winds of Chaos and Bolt of Change which frees those 2 up to do something else.

Edited October 14, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kasper]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I have another scheduled for either tonight or thursday vs a Vostarg FS list. I feel Skyfires work better in Tzeentch for 2 reasons:

• DD potentially giving you 1-2 6's for the MW's on an important hero
• Discs getting +1 attack which makes them capable of throwing out ~20 damage vs a 4+ save

That can absolutely clear a lot of things.. plus they can go first for the RR's and don't have to wait to get hit first like Enlightened (assuming you aren't hiding them behind chaff). Enlightened can do twice as much potentially, but they're harder to use and aren't a big threat vs 5 wound heroes like Skyfires 24" bows are. But yeah, the full magic list has the Sorc Lord and that spell really shines sometimes. I think I did like.. 20-25 MW's to a unit of Stormvermin before and absolutely crippled them, but I was obviously rolling hot 😅.

Hmm... I hadn't thought of a Palisade but I like the idea. I think my worry is just that the list lacks some direct damage and that Daemonrift can usually net me d3+4-5 MW's when I throw it out there. I think I may give that a shot though as that sounds incredibly frustrating and thus incredibly funny to watch someone deal with.

The Scribes is there because he get's out important spells on that 2+ which can't be unbound, he's never using Boon. Usually that means he's casting the Spellportal for Kairos so he has 3 spells to blast into things with the 1 spell going through portal usually being Gift or Winds of Chaos. For me, he's the best model to have it other than the Changecaster; Kairos and the Scribes are both named and I would rather a high wound +1 save model have it over a small hero like the Magister. I'll likely change his spell to Glimpse since Kairos is usually casting Winds of Chaos and Bolt of Change which frees those 2 up to do something else.

Excellent points my good Sir. I see what you mean with Skyfires and DD, I just feel like I would rather use those DD to secure a Gift through the Spellportal to snipe important heroes in turn 1 etc.  Ontop of having the horde clear. I think its ultimately much stronger, at least for the meta Im in locally. 
 

Yeah I really dont want to give up the Daemonrift, but the Palisade trick just sounds so awesome (read, frustrating as ****** for your opponent) and too good to pass up on. Dont have to kill the enemy unit if he cant use it! 
 

I thought Blue Scribes main purpose was to give the other boys rerolls, but pretty much securing the Spellportal for big boi Kairos makes alot of sense. How do you keep track of Frantic Scribbling btw? From what I gather he can learn an unlimited amount of spells?

I thought the purpose of the Manticore was going solo with maybe the Kairics for an objective since hes reasonable tanky with a 3+ and the extra hit and wound makes him somewhat punchy. In that case he wouldnt really give the reroll to the other guys, so figured giving it to the Changecaster or Magister would be more beneficial.

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Excellent points my good Sir. I see what you mean with Skyfires and DD, I just feel like I would rather use those DD to secure a Gift through the Spellportal to snipe important heroes in turn 1 etc.  Ontop of having the horde clear. I think its ultimately much stronger, at least for the meta Im in locally. 

I thought Blue Scribes main purpose was to give the other boys rerolls, but pretty much securing the Spellportal for big boi Kairos makes alot of sense. How do you keep track of Frantic Scribbling btw? From what I gather he can learn an unlimited amount of spells?

I thought the purpose of the Manticore was going solo with maybe the Kairics for an objective since hes reasonable tanky with a 3+ and the extra hit and wound makes him somewhat punchy. In that case he wouldnt really give the reroll to the other guys, so figured giving it to the Changecaster or Magister would be more beneficial.

I mean sure, it isn't going to be available to do both every game unless I roll like four 6's 😅. If someone deployed a hero to be in range of the portal then I would absolutely choose that.. but people are generally less afraid of Skyfires and that extra 4" of range can make a difference. They're more of a mind-game type unit; if you make me go 1st, I have a good shot at killing something unless you literally deployed it in the corner somewhere (which is a win for me) and can just generate FP's and set up a better screen\position Skyfires somewhere I think you won't want them. If you make me go 2nd, I can potentially double-turn you and you may be closer with everything to let me start wiping units out\locking them down.

In most lists yeah, but since HD gives RR's to all but 2 of my Wizards (whose warscroll spells are the reason I take them and Kairos can just cast them anyway) for free then he can actually do other stuff. Usually he's the one zipping around to summon things on top of objectives and throwing out Tzeentch's Firestorm on a 2+ when the Portal isn't needed. As for Frantic Scribbling, I find it isn't really anything I pay much attention to honestly.. I may remember use it to learn Bolt of Tzeentch or a good spell from an enemy wizard in range, but it usually slips my mind and I haven't felt I lost a game due to not learning a spell.

It can go both ways I guess. T1\2 in almost every scenario he's sitting in the little wizard castle providing RR's. T2\3 is usually when things start looking like I can send him out to be more aggressive and lock things down with the 3+ save. I dunno.. still experimenting with it. Late enough in the game and I may not be overly concerned with having RR's and if I think I may be then I can run the Blue Scribes back down to everyone else and have him use Boon. In another version of the list I have the Changecaster with it, but haven't got to test it out yet to see if I prefer it. Being on the BW means his base size increases quite a bit and makes that 9" aura easier to work with.

[Gwendar]

Well, here it is.. had my game vs Fyreslayers tonight, so for anyone looking at a decent representation of how my magic-based HD lists work, here you go 😉

As always I welcome any feedback\questions\comments.

 

[RUNCMD]

Played a pretty fun game against Khorne last night which I was pretty worried about going into. We played total commitment which I'm a big fan of for my list that I'm running atm which looks like this:

Apologies I'm not sure hot to do the neater lists as a drop down on this forum

This is mostly my list i've been running for a while now and am planning on taking to a tournie in November.

His list had 2 Bloodthirsters, Skarbrand, x2 individual Slaughter Preists, X1 Blood Secrator, x1 unit of 5 Chosen, Wrath Mongers, x 2 units of Blood Reavers and x1 unit of Blood Warriors. He took the Skulls of Khorne and also the Big Khorne Axe as his Judgments (they act like endless spells but for Khorne, they're gross, can't be unbound or dispelled by you, but there is a chance they bail at the start of each turn or end of the turn something like that).

He was essentially a 6 drop as am I and he won the roll off, dropping first and also determining who went first. Based on this, I chose to max out my drops and just watch real carefully where his Bloodthirsters and Skarbrand went, where the Chosen and Wrathmongers went and deployed as tactfully as possible. I made sure that my two bigger blobs of kairics where wholly within 9 of the fatemaster to get the re-rolls and also for battleshock purposes. He just hunkered down in the middle of them. I deployed my unit of pinks into front of those two blobs, deployed the Shaman and the enlightened behind a big piece of scenery, deployed one unit of kairics just off to the left objective (with enlightened just behind them sort of to deal with anything that came their way), the Fluxymaster was just behind them and then the blue scribes on the big bit of scenery up high to stay out of the way of melee units but also making it harder for those bloodthirsters to come near him. I burnt the CP on the Fatemaster to re-roll hits JIC i got double turned. Still had 2 as I bought the extra - always handy!

He gave me turn one, and basically I just used this to rack up fate points which was pretty average as scribes rolled a nice 1 for their auto cast ability and then it was just trying to get others off really. managed to get 4 fate points or something by that stage and by the end of my first turn I didnt move, hunkered down and waited.

His turn 1 was more or less getting some buffs off on the thirsters to make them way more gnarly and advance things up. Nothing got up in my face but he positioned himself for that double and also focused mostly on my right flank which had the Pinks, two big blobs of Kairics and the Fatemaster. At this stage he was now in range for some shooting and also Spells.

I got the double and it was on. The highlight of the game for me was that the blue scribes cast Balewind vortex with that 2, nice one boys! Then they cast Boon of Tzeentch, getting it on a 5, then, the Blood Thirster that has the Mage Eater artefact, which lets the holder unbind spells AND on a roll of 8 that caster takes D6 mortals, unbound the spell on an 8 and rolled a 6 for the D6 and my Blue Boys went up in a puff of blue smoke. Hilarious! At this point I was kinda worried because they are kind of pivitol in my list lol. Anyways, I got some spells off again, burnt the Cp, declared an Agenda to kill a hero and add +1 to saves on the big unit of Kairics, Killed a Blood thirster (the Mage Eater thank god), killed the Chaos Chosen (they hit real hard, spesh in Khorne), and then hunkered down on that objective again. My enlightened and the FLuxmaster started to creep out on the left flank as his Skarbrand was the only thing coming that way, so ran the Flux out to the left keeping it as far away from Skarbrand as possible, and the enlightened just positioning themselves for counters.

He had his turn, managed to get the Axe of Khorne into my Kairics and pinks doing alot of Damage and killing off 13 Kairics and a couple of Pinks. He got his Blood thirster in and started swining, chipping away at everything as it does. Then we went to Priority, and I got it again!

Essentially fromhere, I shot off the other Bloodthirster coming for me, Charged Enlightened into Skarbrand and killed him with the Spears, got my flux master further out to the left towards his objectives and then summoned in some screamers and got them up pretty nicely with that. From here we more or less called it a Win for Tzeentch as we mapped out how the game would go really, and because of the higher movement I still had left and his units being a bit too dispersed it would have gone Tzeentchs way.

We discussed mostly that Khorne just has no counter to shooting, and this is probably one big downfall of the army, but also, I had to really bide my time and make sure I was spending CPs for Battleshock and re-reolls of both Hits and Wounds to kill those thirsters. Theyre just gnarly!

I also rolled REALLY well, on a lot of everything which was nice and he rolled pretyt average on saves, Skarbrand especially. So just shows that sometimes this can def come down to Dice rolls.

Khorne is always going to just come straight at you, it's not a hold back Army, so the scenario we played and also the fact I kept getting Priority really helped otherwise it really could have been a Turn 2 Khorne Game!

It was a lot of fun though! Didn't even use my Shards this game, and I havent used them a lot of the time. Might swap them out for something like Shackles and see if they have a better use, or maybe I've just not needed them in the games I've played recently. Also Shaman couldnt cast spells to save his life. Typical LOL. There's a few things I'm missing like his Skulls forcing ALL my successful spells Turn 2 or 3 I think to be re-rolled and man that hurts, but less so when you don't even roll successful casts anyway Can't DD them either because they are still forced to be re-rolled, but you can use them after the inital roll as the re-roll.

 

[Gwendar]

14 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Apologies I'm not sure hot to do the neater lists as a drop down on this forum

There's a few things I'm missing like his Skulls forcing ALL my successful spells Turn 2 or 3 I think to be re-rolled and man that hurts, but less so when you don't even roll successful casts anyway Can't DD them either because they are still forced to be re-rolled, but you can use them after the inital roll as the re-roll.

 

Nice game.. and I hate Khorne when I play as Tzeentch but they still have trouble chewing through Horrors. Just have to make sure your Heroes are far enough away so the Bloodthirsters don't explode MW's on them when they hit. Had a single Bloodthirster kill Scribes, Changecaster and Curseling from that one time 😅

As for the drop down thing, just hit the spoiler button above (the little eye icon) then just past whatever you want in that.

So, 2 things for you to look at when you play Khorne again:

1. DD cannot be re-rolled or modified.. so you wouldn't have to RR them.
    
2. If you have RR's (so Scribes or HD trait) and you fail to roll and you choose to RR it, you cannot then be forced to RR that RR. Per core rules, you never RR a RR.

You didn't mention #2 specifically as happening, but just wanted to include it in case 😉

[RUNCMD]

44 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

DD cannot be re-rolled or modified.. so you wouldn't have to RR them.

You're a wise man! I totally forgot this! And just goes to show that there's always something to learn (again) or remember lol!

[Malakithe]

5 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

You're a wise man! I totally forgot this! And just goes to show that there's always something to learn (again) or remember lol!

I feel like his list was kinda strange. If he was going the Khorne Chaos Knights route I think that match would have gone differently but good on the win!

Edited October 16, 2020 by Malakithe

[Kasper]

On 10/15/2020 at 5:16 AM, Gwendar said:

Well, here it is.. had my game vs Fyreslayers tonight, so for anyone looking at a decent representation of how my magic-based HD lists work, here you go 😉

As always I welcome any feedback\questions\comments.

 

Question! Do you ever run into issues with people simply not wanting to play against you? I havent started my Tzeentch army yet but I have been really tempted lately. I talked with some of my mates about my ideas with your list (coupled with some changes) and they more or less rolled their eyes and said it doesnt sound like a lot of fun to play against and after some games they would probably just not want to play. 

I made the arguement that there are tons of matchups that arent exactly super fun to participate in, but at least against many of them they get to roll dice, where as this list kind of seeks out to restrict your opponent from doing too much. Apparently they would rather be shot off the table and at least get to roll a bunch of saves, instead of simply not really doing anything due to the movement shenanigans.

[RUNCMD]

@Kasper just ask them if they want to play against the Stock Standard Changehost lol.

Did they happen to give more info as to why they rolled their eyes? I'm really interested by this.

[RUNCMD]

2 hours ago, Malakithe said:

If he was going the Khorne Chaos Knights route I think that match would have gone differently but good on the win!

He doesn't have any unfortunately. But I can see what youre saying for sure! Maybe next time we will use some proxies!

[Kasper]

Just now, RUNCMD said:

@Kasper just ask them if they want to play against the Stock Standard Changehost lol.

Did they happen to give more info as to why they rolled their eyes? I'm really interested by this.

Tzeentch seems to have a certain stigma atm. You are kinda "that guy" if you bring it. At least around here. Not really different to playing KO, LRL with Archers and Seraphon with Starborne. They just know by default that if you turn up with one of those armies, your list is typically really strong. I think a lot of people are tired of fighting Horrors that just "keep on splitting". 

[RUNCMD]

@Kasper eh thats on them then imo. Not to say anything negative, but to auto assume something will be one way because you say "I'm bringing X Army" is a bit poor in my mind, and also doesn't make for a healthy scene.

Sure there are going to be strong lists and people will always take the latest army etc, but in my mind, if someone says "im bringing KO" im like "damn I need to figure out how to shut them down asap and play against them"... If they keep rolling their eyes at the latest armies to have a good tome, they will be doing that the whole time they play AOS in my mind lol.

Edit: Changed my naughty word to Damn lol

Edited October 16, 2020 by RUNCMD
changed word

[Kasper]

1 minute ago, RUNCMD said:

@Kasper eh thats on them then imo. Not to say anything negative, but to auto assume something will be one way because you say "I'm bringing X Army" is a bit poor in my mind, and also doesn't make for a healthy scene.

Sure there are going to be strong lists and people will always take the latest army etc, but in my mind, if someone says "im bringing KO" im like "****** I need to figure out how to shut them down asap and play against them"... If they keep rolling their eyes at the latest armies to have a good tome, they will be doing that the whole time they play AOS in my mind lol.

The mates I often play with are not the most competitive guys around, so I think the issue is that they dont want to deal with all the hyper competitive/strong ******. They just want to play some "fun" lists. Im of the same opinion as you - I currently dont mind facing Tzeentch because I will have to do it in tournaments anyways. My odds of doing well are low if I keep skipping out on matches against them. 

I play against another bunch that are hyper competitive and they want to play against the good ******. All the fun lists are kinda a snore fest for them, since the reason they play in the first place is tournament play.

[RUNCMD]

@Kasper if they're not competitive players that makes sense why they roll their eyes... but I would say it's not contributing to a healthy scene even if they choose to not enter tournies etc.

Good to hear that you have a balance though of competitive and non-competitive players to play against. If I can offer any advice it would be possibly don't talk comp lists with the players you know are going to not be into it, and reserve that energy/banter for the people who will at least reply constructively, mostly for your own sake so you don't ever get disheartened by someone who just rolls their eyes.

But also this forum/website has a lot of people to share ideas with

[Kasper]

6 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

@Kasper if they're not competitive players that makes sense why they roll their eyes... but I would say it's not contributing to a healthy scene even if they choose to not enter tournies etc.

Good to hear that you have a balance though of competitive and non-competitive players to play against. If I can offer any advice it would be possibly don't talk comp lists with the players you know are going to not be into it, and reserve that energy/banter for the people who will at least reply constructively, mostly for your own sake so you don't ever get disheartened by someone who just rolls their eyes.

But also this forum/website has a lot of people to share ideas with

I completely agree. I think it is an art to be able to "downscale" or significantly reduce the power of your army in order to have "fun games" with your non-competitive mates. My issue is that I personally enjoy trying to squeeze out power of my army. If I purposely have to downscale or remove synergies.. A lot of the fun goes out the window for me. Also I think its hard to reduce the power of this "control list" that @Gwendar was playing. I could obviously remove Kairos, switch to another host, not bring the Palisade or place the Spawn in such a way that I lock my opponent down, but are you really playing "control" then? I feel like it is a combination of all those things that makes the list strong (and fun) to play. 

[RUNCMD]

17 minutes ago, Kasper said:

A lot of the fun goes out the window for me

Yeah I get a real kick out of making lists and then seeing them work really well!

Always happy to help you build a list at whatever points range, that would be fun for you and your cas mates to play if you end up diving into Tzeentch! Also happy to help with the comp lists as well.

I think when collecting a new army or starting one, if your aim is for competitive games/tournies, you should aim for that and disregard whatever anyone else says. Mate its YOUR hobby after all

[Kasper]

15 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Yeah I get a real kick out of making lists and then seeing them work really well!

Always happy to help you build a list at whatever points range, that would be fun for you and your cas mates to play if you end up diving into Tzeentch! Also happy to help with the comp lists as well.

I think when collecting a new army or starting one, if your aim is for competitive games/tournies, you should aim for that and disregard whatever anyone else says. Mate its YOUR hobby after all

Typically when I start a new army it is because I just love the idea of a certain subfaction or list. Right now I dont really care too much about the mortal/Tzaangor aspect of Tzeentch (I do have Tzaangors and Enlightened/Skyfires from my days playing BoC) and Im not into the Eternal Conflag with mass Flamers. I play Seraphon currently, so if I want to play a heavy shooting game, I will just bring my 80+ Skinks, Kroak etc. The playstyle feels very similar (at least on paper) tbh. The reason I wanted to try Tzeentch was for the more controlling aspect because it is a completely different way than just shooting your opponent off the table or running up to bash their face in. It is very unique way of playing.

I just fail to see how I can tune down the power of the list without making it crumble all together. I love the idea of Be'lakor. I love the idea of Kairos. I love the combination of Spawn + Palisade + Host Dup. If you start to remove any of those pieces, it isnt really the same is it?  

Edited October 16, 2020 by Kasper

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

Question! Do you ever run into issues with people simply not wanting to play against you? I havent started my Tzeentch army yet but I have been really tempted lately. I talked with some of my mates about my ideas with your list (coupled with some changes) and they more or less rolled their eyes and said it doesnt sound like a lot of fun to play against and after some games they would probably just not want to play. 

I made the arguement that there are tons of matchups that arent exactly super fun to participate in, but at least against many of them they get to roll dice, where as this list kind of seeks out to restrict your opponent from doing too much. Apparently they would rather be shot off the table and at least get to roll a bunch of saves, instead of simply not really doing anything due to the movement shenanigans.

Nope, all of my local players know I'm a competitive player and a handful of them are too (particularly the ex-40k tournament players) so they don't care at all and they just have playing and learning to get better. The different is that unlike the standard "that guy" I try to pull things back against the casual folks or literally just tell them how as we play to stay away\counter my army. This list is all about control, but if you bring a shooting focused or hyper-fast\punchy army that can just shoot the wizards off or eat through the Horrors then it falls apart incredibly quickly.

I see their point about it being uninteractive to some extent, but I would rather play against this than get shot off the board via Changehost. Teleporting right in your face and then killing 2-4 units per turn (on a 1-drop so I'll almost always decide who goes first) is far less interactive than this 9-drop list that has some glaring weaknesses. Changehost is hard to zone out if you run a Bridge like I do... but this list? I've had so many people make me go first and I can't hit anything important with spells T1.. then they double turn me and it usually goes downhill quickly once they've already reached me and claimed some boardspace. On TTS this is generally a lot harder to play because I have access to some very high level players.

4 hours ago, Kasper said:

The mates I often play with are not the most competitive guys around, so I think the issue is that they dont want to deal with all the hyper competitive/strong ******. They just want to play some "fun" lists. Im of the same opinion as you - I currently dont mind facing Tzeentch because I will have to do it in tournaments anyways. My odds of doing well are low if I keep skipping out on matches against them. 

I play against another bunch that are hyper competitive and they want to play against the good ******. All the fun lists are kinda a snore fest for them, since the reason they play in the first place is tournament play.

I wanted to quote this part too just to re-emphasize some things. My local scene is probably about 16 players (more than half of that being 1-2 hours away) and maybe 6 of them of are as competitive\tournament focused like I am. With a couple of people in the casual crowd, I can have 1 good game where everything goes right and I blow everything off the table with Skaven (now a B tier army at best) and I'll get some talk about how they're broken.. I take the same thing to other competitive-minded folks and it's the complete opposite. Some have even outright quit the hobby for months\permanently because they didn't win a game in a year, even when playing against other casual people.

Now, I haven't played a physical game since February, but what I started doing was bringing 2 lists to these tournaments and give my opponents the choice of what to play. The competitive people would ask to play the heavy-handed list while the casual people would say "nah I don't care which you do!" so I would give them the easier list or I would pull back and do what I described above with showing them how to beat it.

"Different stroke for different folks" is a term used around here a lot and I think it applies in the divide between casual and competitive. I don't care for people that refuse to play just because of a list as I often find that these are the same people that think tournaments are stupid and that the game should only be played in a way they think is fun. If you aren't a "that guy" then they should at least give themselves the opportunity to see how it works and pass judgement then. 

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

I completely agree. I think it is an art to be able to "downscale" or significantly reduce the power of your army in order to have "fun games" with your non-competitive mates. My issue is that I personally enjoy trying to squeeze out power of my army. If I purposely have to downscale or remove synergies.. A lot of the fun goes out the window for me. Also I think its hard to reduce the power of this "control list" that @Gwendar was playing. I could obviously remove Kairos, switch to another host, not bring the Palisade or place the Spawn in such a way that I lock my opponent down, but are you really playing "control" then? I feel like it is a combination of all those things that makes the list strong (and fun) to play. 

I meant to touch on this too. This was incredibly draining for me to do and I did it for at least 2 years. A couple of people I would purposefully play poorly against and I would still manage to win a lot of the time.. so I stopped. I did what I said above and either started to teach them how to play against me or I brought a whole  different army that was easier (and I understand that may not be an option or something you wanna do). Even then, some people just won't be interested in being "taught" how to "play better".. and for them, yeah, I just don't play against them unless they sign up for the tournament.

It is what it is, but if neither party can enjoy playing each other for whatever reason, then it's probably better for your own sakes and the sake of the community to just leave it be.

In terms of the list, I genuinely think if you just switched it to another Host (like Summoners Guild, but they may think summoning a LoC who can't do anything meaningful until the next turn is too strong too 😅) would change a lot. The issue they seem is to have is that they can't retreat from anything and they can get locked in their deployment.. of course, that's why they need to be more mindful of how they deploy (measuring ranges, watch spacing so a Chaos Spawn can't tag multiple units, etc) and I think that's a "skill" all players should have to some extent. I think another thing you would want to remove is Be'lakor.. he doesn't lend well to casual players when you tell them "Yeah if you roll less than a 5 you can't do anything with that unit". Of course you're right though.. once you start removing those elements then it may start turning into something else. Outside of HD the Chaos Spawns are still useful as they need to make a choice between fighting it that turn and killing it (been done plenty of times to me) or shooting\MWing it off on their turn.

I don't think it's the "no retreat" part of HD that gets most people, it's the fact that I can summon 2 Chaos Spawn a turn and if they can't kill it in that combat phase, they have to dedicate resources to kill it. If they retreat from it outside of HD, then they can't do anything else unless it's something that can retreat + charge\shoot. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by Gwendar

[Elevenist]

How does this look? It's a hosts arcanum list. 

++ Meeting Engagement - Main Body (Chaos - Tzeentch) [1,500pts] ++

+ Leader +

Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger

Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger

Lord of Change [380pts]: General, Rod of Sorcery

+ Battleline +

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

+ Other +

Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers

Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Tzeentch

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Burning Sigil of Tzeentch [40pts]

++ Total: [1,500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Edited October 19, 2020 by Elevenist

[Ganigumo]

1 hour ago, Elevenist said:

How does this look? It's a hosts arcanum list. 

++ Meeting Engagement - Main Body (Chaos - Tzeentch) [1,500pts] ++

+ Leader +

Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger

Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc [130pts]: Ritual Dagger

Lord of Change [380pts]: General, Rod of Sorcery

+ Battleline +

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

Horrors of Tzeentch [220pts]: 10 Pink Horrors, Hornblowers, Icon Bearers

+ Other +

Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers

Screamers of Tzeentch [80pts]: 3 Screamers

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Tzeentch

+ Malign Sorcery +

Endless Spell: Burning Sigil of Tzeentch [40pts]

++ Total: [1,500pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

I'm not super familiar with what 1500 point games look like, but it feels like your damage is a bit low? Screamers are battleline in hosts arcanum, so maybe swap out one of the units of horrors for something else that hits hard like flamers or Tzaangor enlightened? You'll have a few points left over for another endless spell or a command point too.

[Tizianolol]

Guys i played a game vs my friend today.  When i split like 3 pinks into 6 blues, blues are part of the same unit. After i habe to remove all pinks first? Or i can decide to remove blues first ? So i can keep pink bearer alive? 

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys i played a game vs my friend today.  When i split like 3 pinks into 6 blues, blues are part of the same unit. After i habe to remove all pinks first? Or i can decide to remove blues first ? So i can keep pink bearer alive? 

The blues are part of the same unit, but you must remove all the pinks before you can remove any blues, and remove all the blues before you can remove any brimstones, so save that standard bearer for the last pink you remove.

[Halkbat]

25 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The blues are part of the same unit, but you must remove all the pinks before you can remove any blues, and remove all the blues before you can remove any brimstones, so save that standard bearer for the last pink you remove.

This is correct when it comes to allocating wounds and mortal wounds. In the few situations where models are slain or removed you do not have to select pinks first. For example failed battle shock tests or spells like the purple sun.