AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[RUNCMD]

@Gwendar and @SleeperAgent Tzeentch is my second army after Stormcast (got them when getting into the hobby) and they will be my staple/fall back to when I delve into others and go through similar motions you guys have described above! Something about Tzeentch that just nails it for me, much to what you described above with the Magic, Shooting and some Melee to boot! Also, apart from Flamers which ill admit im coming around to, the models are just awesome. Used to hate screamers now I just love the idea of sky sharks floating about biting everything!

Edit: @Gwendar Son's do look awesome! And I'd love one of the real huge ones to be able to be allied in to a Chaos army!

Edited September 28, 2020 by RUNCMD
added stuff

[Gwendar]

30 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

@Gwendar and @SleeperAgent Tzeentch is my second army after Stormcast (got them when getting into the hobby) and they will be my staple/fall back to when I delve into others and go through similar motions you guys have described above! Something about Tzeentch that just nails it for me, much to what you described above with the Magic, Shooting and some Melee to boot! Also, apart from Flamers which ill admit im coming around to, the models are just awesome. Used to hate screamers now I just love the idea of sky sharks floating about biting everything!

Edit: @Gwendar Son's do look awesome! And I'd love one of the real huge ones to be able to be allied in to a Chaos army!

It's funny actually, when me and my GF first went to our local Warhammer store it was Tzeentch that I wanted, but ended up going to Skaven because of the Spire of Dawn\Isle of Blood set and she wanted Elves... happy with my choice in the end, but I love shooting\magic based armies more than anything so here I am 😉

They can actually, they showed a preview yesterday. Just super curious to see how their warscrolls look.. I'm more interested in running all 3 in a pure Sons list.. playing mostly hordes for so many years has me wanting something with low model count, even if it sucks:
 

Spoiler

 

[RUNCMD]

@Gwendar I missed that! good that they can be taken, because now i'm more inclined to get one lol.

I reckon they will hit hard, and would have to have similar rules like Ogor's where they count for more than one model on objectives! But agreed, keen to see their warscrolls. not long now!

I really want to see a Tzeentch Giant now!

[Tizianolol]

Guys after last poimt change , what you sugggest as a competitive list? Are there good tournament tzeentch list ? Ty all!:)

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys after last poimt change , what you sugggest as a competitive list? Are there good tournament tzeentch list ? Ty all!:)

There's quite a few actually.. we're lucky in that you can do a lot of competitive things with this book. Here's just a few things off the top of my head in short summary:

1. Eternal Conflagration + Changehost is the most popular tournament list but it won't win you any friends in more casual play. As a standard you're typically taking 12 Flamers and 1-2 Exalted Flamers.. fill the rest with Horrors, 1-3 wizards and maybe some endless spells.

2. Hosts Arcanum lists have started to crop up and have been doing exceptionally well.. but these are generally a bit more objective\movement based and less emphasis on "how many units can I kill per turn before they start scoring points".

3. Lesser options but still up there depending on the player and matchup are Pyrofane + Withfyre Coven for a shooty list that isn't quite as offensive as 12+ Eternal Conflag Flamers in a 1-drop Changehost... but still plenty competitive and generally leaves you some room to include a combat threat like Enlightened. I think Hosts Duplicitous is pretty competitive too, but it's generally more about bodies\objectives if you go the route of a few wizards, a bunch of Horrors (Pink in particular) and can even run it with Multitudinous Host for even more wounds for an opponent to chew through.


My favorite lists for competitive play so far are my magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists (casting RR's from the Command Trait) and Pyrofane.. but I'm hopping on board the Hosts Arcanum train this next month to see how it works. All of these can be built a bunch of different ways so I can provide some lists if you want just as examples.

[Tizianolol]

Ok thx it will be great! Im a StD player buy i wanna start DoT. I wanna test some lists in tts and aftrr i decide what is better for me! Is there a competitive list with a melee approach too? Maybe with ogroid ( i got model and i love him) !!:)

[Gwendar]

43 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Ok thx it will be great! Im a StD player buy i wanna start DoT. I wanna test some lists in tts and aftrr i decide what is better for me! Is there a competitive list with a melee approach too? Maybe with ogroid ( i got model and i love him) !!:)

I ran Cult of a Thousand Eyes (which is actually a StD allegiance) but it really wants you to have more StD units than Tzeentch which is why I didn't care for it.. I think it's good for people like yourself who maybe want to get into Tzeentch but don't have a lot of Tzeentch specific stuff.

As for melee focused, unfortunately the only good melee unit we really have is Enlightened (on disc, in particular) and that's it as far as Tzeentch goes. If you look a page or two back we had some discussion on Tzaangors, but I still think they're overcosted for what they do. They're stuck between wanting to be a good screen and an actually hammer unit but don't do either incredibly well, in my opinion.. and Acolytes are better at shooting than anything else really.

Honestly, I think incorporating at least 1-2 Slaves unit isn't a bad idea in the slightest.. 10 Chaos Knights, 10 Chosen or 40 Marauders (who also happen to be battleline) can do a lot of work if they're given the Sorcerer Lords buff and\or Chaos Lords fight-twice ability. The spell is especially easy to get off in Tzeentch since you can just destiny dice the roll to ensure it goes off on a turn you need it to, just remember it can still be unbound. With any of these units, you're going to want to give them the +1 attack agenda for them completing a 9+ charge (can be destiny diced) but keep in mind that can only be used once.. next best thing is the +1 to hit you gain from wiping a unit with 9+ models.

If you plan to do TTS, I know myself and @RUNCMD both play so I'm always cool with helping you out and getting games in. I play various other armies too so I can always run them to prevent any mirror matches if that isn't your thing 😉. I'm part of a few discords were there's a lot of tactica talk and TTS games\tournaments happen all the time so if you (or anyone else) want invites just let me know.

[Kasper]

12 hours ago, Gwendar said:

There's quite a few actually.. we're lucky in that you can do a lot of competitive things with this book. Here's just a few things off the top of my head in short summary:

1. Eternal Conflagration + Changehost is the most popular tournament list but it won't win you any friends in more casual play. As a standard you're typically taking 12 Flamers and 1-2 Exalted Flamers.. fill the rest with Horrors, 1-3 wizards and maybe some endless spells.

2. Hosts Arcanum lists have started to crop up and have been doing exceptionally well.. but these are generally a bit more objective\movement based and less emphasis on "how many units can I kill per turn before they start scoring points".

3. Lesser options but still up there depending on the player and matchup are Pyrofane + Withfyre Coven for a shooty list that isn't quite as offensive as 12+ Eternal Conflag Flamers in a 1-drop Changehost... but still plenty competitive and generally leaves you some room to include a combat threat like Enlightened. I think Hosts Duplicitous is pretty competitive too, but it's generally more about bodies\objectives if you go the route of a few wizards, a bunch of Horrors (Pink in particular) and can even run it with Multitudinous Host for even more wounds for an opponent to chew through.


My favorite lists for competitive play so far are my magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists (casting RR's from the Command Trait) and Pyrofane.. but I'm hopping on board the Hosts Arcanum train this next month to see how it works. All of these can be built a bunch of different ways so I can provide some lists if you want just as examples.

Thanks for the write-up of compential lists!

Have there been any control-like lists doing well lately? Im personally not a fan of the mass Flamers playstyle, but I rather like the idea of running Kairos + Be'lakor in an attempt to control the game. Maybe with Sorc on Manticore with Blue Scribes and in the summoning cult to summon on chickens.  

[Kharl]

@Gwendar out of curiosity, how do you decide who will take the 1st turn when playing an Eternal Conflagrations list? 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Thanks for the write-up of compential lists!

Have there been any control-like lists doing well lately? Im personally not a fan of the mass Flamers playstyle, but I rather like the idea of running Kairos + Be'lakor in an attempt to control the game. Maybe with Sorc on Manticore with Blue Scribes and in the summoning cult to summon on chickens.  

The magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists I've ran before is relatively control based more or less. Be'lakor, Arcane Suggestion somewhere in the list, not being able to retreat from the 1-2 Chaos Spawns you can create per turn (and remember they only need to come within 3" of the unit that had models slain, not within 3" of the slain model) and Geminids works super well. You can easily stack -2 to hit and wound at a minimum on a unit and then Be'lakor can just shut down another for a turn.. if you could find a way to put a Changeling in then it could be even worse, but I don't find it necessary.

I've ran the version with the Manticore before and most recently I switched up that list for a Magister on Disc (another source of Chaos Spawns) and 10 Pinks over 10 Acolytes. Still debating if I want to run that or try out Skyshoal in an upcoming tournament 😅
 

44 minutes ago, Kharl said:

@Gwendar out of curiosity, how do you decide who will take the 1st turn when playing an Eternal Conflagrations list? 

Really just going to depend on the matchup, how your opponent is deployed and, to a lesser extent usually, the battleplan. When I do Conflag Changehost I run a Soulscream Bridge so I can get everyone in range pretty easily. If they premeasured to be out of that range T1 then I will give them the first turn to move closer.. or they can sit still and let me start taking board space with the risk of getting double-turned where they wouldn't be able to outrange me anymore.

If they allow me to get in range of 2-3 units that I can delete, then I'll take first turn. With the Blue Scribes, it's a pretty safe bet to get the Bridge off on his 2+ spell cast and it can't be unbound that way. Then you just have the Flamers and Wizards start chucking out damage like their no tomorrow.. you just want to do enough damage to their hammer units that they won't have much to eat through screens.

The only really tough matchup is against certain KO builds who can easily outrange you and start taking stuff off if they go first.. but again, there's a lot of factors involved.

[Kasper]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

The magic-based Hosts Duplicitous lists I've ran before is relatively control based more or less. Be'lakor, Arcane Suggestion somewhere in the list, not being able to retreat from the 1-2 Chaos Spawns you can create per turn (and remember they only need to come within 3" of the unit that had models slain, not within 3" of the slain model) and Geminids works super well. You can easily stack -2 to hit and wound at a minimum on a unit and then Be'lakor can just shut down another for a turn.. if you could find a way to put a Changeling in then it could be even worse, but I don't find it necessary.

I've ran the version with the Manticore before and most recently I switched up that list for a Magister on Disc (another source of Chaos Spawns) and 10 Pinks over 10 Acolytes. Still debating if I want to run that or try out Skyshoal in an upcoming tournament 😅

Yeah this is the kind of stuff I like! I realize it might not be for everyone, but I dont personally enjoy the playstyle of just having a brawl in the middle of the table. I find controlling the game/movement of my opponent to be a lot more interesting and fun, even if it might create a headache for my opponent. 😅

Could you either link me to a similar list or do a quick and dirty mock-up for an idea of how such a list would look like? 

[GrimDork]

I recently picked up the Aether War box, mainly for the KO. But, I’m thinking of hanging onto the DoT half for a future project.

Any advice on what to get next to take it up to 1K? Will likely be meeting engagement format.

Also any advice on assembly?Enlightened or skyfires or a mix? 

Thanks in advance.

[Gwendar]

44 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Yeah this is the kind of stuff I like! I realize it might not be for everyone, but I dont personally enjoy the playstyle of just having a brawl in the middle of the table. I find controlling the game/movement of my opponent to be a lot more interesting and fun, even if it might create a headache for my opponent. 😅

Could you either link me to a similar list or do a quick and dirty mock-up for an idea of how such a list would look like? 

Eh.. I enjoy running the 1 drop, 12 Flamer Conflag lists when people specifically ask for it but I would never dream of doing it to anyone unwilling to do so. It's pretty fun (for you) to just shoot everything off the board sometimes.. especially coming from a different army that you have to try a bit harder with to win 😅

People will have a more enjoyable time dealing with all the debuffs and magic damage than just straight up being blown off the table by teleporting Flamers. But sure, I'll just put my 2 versions below. The first I actually got from Kaleb Walters and have watched him play it multiple times.. guys a master with it. The 2nd is what I run now and I prefer it but both have their merits.

Duplicitous Manticore:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Duplicitous Magister\Horrors:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

Now if you're a normal person, you would probably swap out the Skyfires for 6 Enlightened. I haven't ran it that way yet since the Skyfires work so well for me, but honestly having Kairos + Spellportal and a 24" range Changecaster with two d6 MW spells means you already have a pretty reliable way to kill those 5-6 wound support heroes at long range so the Enlightened would probably make more sense. Both lists can be throwing out 10+ spells a turn (Changecaster and Magister both can potentially cast more spells with their rules) so generally I'm just summoning Blues to steal or hold objectives unless I think I can afford another turn to get Pinks instead. The Manticore is good because it can stick around in combat (again, with nothing being able to retreat from it) for longer than you may think and put out reasonable numbers.. the 2nd list just gives you another Spawn but you're also losing out on the Manticores insane anti-horde spell.. so pick your poison.

You could also just replace the Skyfires\Enlightened with Pinks or more Kairics if you want to go that route.. the lists can be tough against some armies because you have so few screens to start with. The casting RR's help to clear a couple units a turn but I like having a speedy unit that can clear objectives up the board as this list generally plays pretty cagey and wants to stay out of big fights. With nothing being able to retreat from the Chaos Spawns you create 3" away then it can keep them locked in place even longer... not to mention all the -'s to hit\wound and Be'lakor doing his thing. Kairos can also just tell a unit "no thanks" by using his OPG ability to change a dice roll and just automatically deny a charge.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Gwendar
typo's\clarifications

[Kasper]

16 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Eh.. I enjoy running the 1 drop, 12 Flamer Conflag lists when people specifically ask for it but I would never dream of doing it to anyone unwilling to do so. It's pretty fun (for you) to just shoot everything off the board sometimes.. especially coming from a different army that you have to try a bit harder with to win 😅

People will have a more enjoyable time dealing with all the debuffs and magic damage than just straight up being blown off the table by teleporting Flamers. But sure, I'll just put my 2 versions below. The first I actually got from Kaleb Walters and have watched him play it multiple times.. guys a master with it. The 2nd is what I run now and I prefer it but both have their merits.

Duplicitous Manticore:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

Duplicitous Magister\Horrors:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

Now if you're a normal person, you would probably swap out the Skyfires for 6 Enlightened. I haven't ran it that way yet since the Skyfires work so well for me, but honestly having Kairos + Spellportal and a 24" range Changecaster with two d6 MW spells means you already have a pretty reliable way to kill those 5-6 wound support heroes at long range so the Enlightened would probably make more sense. Both lists can be throwing out 10+ spells a turn (Changecaster and Magister both can potentially cast more spells with their rules) so generally I'm just summoning Blues to steal or hold objectives unless I think I can afford another turn to get Pinks instead. The Manticore is good because it can stick around in combat (again, with nothing being able to retreat from it) for longer than you may think and put out reasonable numbers.. the 2nd list just gives you another Spawn but you're also losing out on the Manticores insane anti-horde spell.. so pick your poison.

You could also just replace the Skyfires\Enlightened with Pinks or more Kairics if you want to go that route.. the lists can be tough against some armies because you have so few screens to start with. The casting RR's help to clear a couple units a turn but I like having a speedy unit that can clear objectives up the board as this list generally plays pretty cagey and wants to stay out of big fights. With nothing being able to retreat from the Chaos Spawns you create 3" away then it can keep them locked in place even longer... not to mention all the -'s to hit\wound and Be'lakor doing his thing. Kairos can also just tell a unit "no thanks" by using his OPG ability to change a dice roll and just automatically deny a charge.

Those look great! Thanks a lot man.  

I really like the idea of the Manticore for the horde clear spell, and as you say he is a reasonable threat on his own. Im surprised none of them start with Pinks on the table. I would probably switch Skyfires + Acolytes for Pinks so you have a massive fortress for all your casters, but I can see the long reach from Skyfires being attractive. I would be tempted to switch the Geminids for either Lifeswarm for more Pinks or the S2D endless spell that I currently cant remember the name of..

[Gwendar]

7 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Those look great! Thanks a lot man.  

I really like the idea of the Manticore for the horde clear spell, and as you say he is a reasonable threat on his own. Im surprised none of them start with Pinks on the table. I would probably switch Skyfires + Acolytes for Pinks so you have a massive fortress for all your casters, but I can see the long reach from Skyfires being attractive. I would be tempted to switch the Geminids for either Lifeswarm for more Pinks or the S2D endless spell that I currently cant remember the name of..

Like I said, you can do that, but I think having some forward board presence to contest backfield objectives is pretty valuable in a list that really just wants to sit around on it's own and slowly push into your opponents. Basically, it just allows you to apply pressure somewhere else instead of it all being focused on a singular point.

Lifeswarm could be valuable if you ran 10-20 Pinks I guess, but I think you need the damage and debuffing more since you can just summon more with the Command Ability if they die or from FP's. I used to run Darkfire Daemonrift as you can use it pretty safely with Kairos' ability to just dispell it right away but I just recently tried Geminids and I enjoyed it for their debuffs. Both are super valid spells so it's your choice.

[Kasper]

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Like I said, you can do that, but I think having some forward board presence to contest backfield objectives is pretty valuable in a list that really just wants to sit around on it's own and slowly push into your opponents. Basically, it just allows you to apply pressure somewhere else instead of it all being focused on a singular point.

Lifeswarm could be valuable if you ran 10-20 Pinks I guess, but I think you need the damage and debuffing more since you can just summon more with the Command Ability if they die or from FP's. I used to run Darkfire Daemonrift as you can use it pretty safely with Kairos' ability to just dispell it right away but I just recently tried Geminids and I enjoyed it for their debuffs. Both are super valid spells so it's your choice.

Good points. This is where table experience comes into play rather than just paper theorycrafting.

[Tizianolol]

@Gwendar excuse me if i ask too mutch, have you a competitive list with witchfyre coven battalion? Thx alot!:) 

Edited September 30, 2020 by Tizianolol

[Gwendar]

4 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

@Gwendar excuse me if i ask too mutch, have you a competitive list with witchfyre coven battalion? Thx alot!:) 

Never.. I'm sure everyone here can see that I enjoy talking Tzeentch (probably too much) so I don't mind. Now, I've only ran this a couple of times so there may be better ways to run it.. I haven't really combed over it in detail to see if anything can\should be changed. Once I'm done fine-tuning Skyshoal I'll probably go back to it.

Pyrofane\Witchfyre:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)

Battleline
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)

Battalions
Witchfyre Coven (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

I think if I would change anything then it may be to drop the Changecaster and Balewind for a Shaman. That combo is harder to make good use of when you don't have RR's from Duplicitous or Blue Scribes.

[Tizianolol]

What do you think about remove:

- fatemaster

- changecaster 

- balewind and additional CP

Add :

-ogroid thaumaturge with power infusion 

- tzaangor shaman with bolt of tzeentch 

tot 1980

Tz shaman buff its a good way to make tz on disc damage output better , with bold he can be very scary. Ogroid can tank in melee, he dont die very easy with his spell , with PI he can be more scary in close combat!! What do you think @Gwendar and guys about that?:)

 

[RUNCMD]

@Tizianolol You really want to keep the fatemaster in the witchfyre/pyrofane combo list for the re-roll hits and then the CP ability of re-roll wounds, especially if you're shooting with a block of 30 Acolytes twice. 

Definitely adding the Shaman is key for any skyfires and enlightened and also arcane suggestion or shield of fate at long ranges post turn 1.

Ogroid is great with infusion Arcanum on himself, but also I have found him to be quite unreliable and slow. You really want to capitalise on Tzeentchs high movement in a competitive setting really. 

 

[Gwendar]

54 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

What do you think about remove:

- fatemaster

- changecaster 

- balewind and additional CP

Add :

-ogroid thaumaturge with power infusion 

- tzaangor shaman with bolt of tzeentch 

tot 1980

Tz shaman buff its a good way to make tz on disc damage output better , with bold he can be very scary. Ogroid can tank in melee, he dont die very easy with his spell , with PI he can be more scary in close combat!! What do you think @Gwendar and guys about that?:)

 

Yeah, what @RUNCMD said.. I think the Fatemaster is an autoinclude in that list and not something that is up for consideration to trade out.

Ogroid is a fun option, but I wouldn't say competitive. He's not actually all that tanky and if anything wants to kill him they'll have a fairly easy time of it. I agree that speed and buff ability is better and the Shaman will directly benefit the Enlightened\Skyfires as well as giving you a very fast summoning platform for you to run him across the board and summon on top of an objective if you have the opportunity.. which honestly is how you'll find that you win games a lot of the time, or at least easily ensure a tighter grip on the VP 😉

I wouldn't take Bolt on the Shaman just because you'll get more use out of Arcane Suggestion to debuff whatever the Enlightened are going to charge which will lessen the wounds they take before they get to attack (since you want them having the RR's). He's not really there to be scary, you have a LoC (Chainfire Amulet makes his shooting put out a decent amount of MW's on good rolls), lots of shooting and Enlightened for that.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Gwendar

[Tizianolol]

Ye , so basically with my mod and yours suggestions  list should be

Add :

fatemaster and 1 CP

Remove :

orgroid. And  arcane suggestions on tz shaman seems 100 % better then bolt! 

tot 1990

@RUNCMD fatemaster CA is 9" range and tz unit must be "wholly within". Seems hard buff 30 acolytes with only 9" range.  Am i missing something? Im new to TZ !

Edited September 30, 2020 by Tizianolol

[Gwendar]

58 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Ye , so basically with my mod and yours suggestions  list should be

Add :

fatemaster and 1 CP

Remove :

orgroid. And  arcane suggestions on tz shaman seems 100 % better then bolt! 

tot 1990

@RUNCMD fatemaster CA is 9" range and tz unit must be "wholly within". Seems hard buff 30 acolytes with only 9" range.  Am i missing something? Im new to TZ !

Right, which is basically what I had\suggested originally 😉

As for the Fatemaster, I'll let RUNCMD give his take but I figured I'd pop into TTS and give an example. You can fit all of them in pretty easily and the back ranks don't lose too much range.. maybe 1-2.5 inches at most?

Below is a picture.. and not sure if you can see the green circle, but all 30 Acolytes are wholly within 9" and the back rank is just within range to shoot the Karic's in front of them. You have to keep in mind this is more of a short-range quanity of shots rather than a teleporting Conflag Changehost list where the 12+ Flamers will do twice as much in a shorter burst.

Spoiler

Now, obviously you won't be getting 2 units of 30 in really, but the idea is 1 unit of Kaircs does most of the heavy lifting while the others can still plink out damage elsewhere. Pyrofane lists are fun.. but if you want 10/10 best shooting that wipes units you would want to look at Conflag Flamers 😉

Edited October 1, 2020 by Gwendar

[Tizianolol]

Ok thx a lot! I love this liat because is a mix of magic shooting and melee damage. Conflag flamer list are only shooting right?

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Ok thx a lot! I love this liat because is a mix of magic shooting and melee damage. Conflag flamer list are only shooting right?

Yeah.. it's an interesting mix of things for sure. But yeah.. typically if you're going Eternal Conflag then you're usually building for Changehost and 100% getting at least 12 Flamers and 1-2 Exalted into a list. Generally you can then afford some Horrors (10-20 Pinks and the rest Brimstone\Blues) and 2 other Wizards not including the Lord of Change just to hit that 8 daemon units requirement.

If you don't go Changehost, then you can save some points and build some melee threat or stack more wizards if you want. 12 Flamers and an Exalted is 660 points and you can build however you want after that.. but the 1-drop battalion is part of what makes it so powerful as you can beat out nearly every other army on drops and always decide who goes first. Not to say other builds with more threats couldn't do just as well of course.