AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Gwendar]

29 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

@Gwendar are you using Grafana to display that Data?

It's this actually: https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ 

Can even put in target data to calculate damage done with save RR's, DPR's and wound passing off all taken into account.

[RUNCMD]

@Gwendar you're doing gods work! thanks mate!

[Kharl]

Further to this question,  I have now to decide how to use my last 100pts. 
Is it better to take a 2nd exalted flamer or some blue/brime+endless spell?

[Gwendar]

19 minutes ago, Kharl said:

Further to this question,  I have now to decide how to use my last 100pts. 
Is it better to take a 2nd exalted flamer or some blue/brime+endless spell?

I assume you only have a LoC and the Fatemaster right? A Spellportal could be alright but I'd say horrors would server better to sit on the backlines. That said a 2nd Flamer isn't terrible just to further compound your shooting. Not sure without seeing how the rest of the list looks.

[MitGas]

19 minutes ago, Kharl said:

Further to this question,  I have now to decide how to use my last 100pts. 
Is it better to take a 2nd exalted flamer or some blue/brime+endless spell?

Am I too blind or stupid (or both! 🙀) to see your list? I know you run an Eternal Conflag list but I think posting it would be best to get some feedback. In theory there are so many cool things that can be done with 100 points but IMO it depends on what you got and who you play against.

[Kharl]

Sorry I should have posted the list. It’s quite easy:

LoC

Changecaster

The Blue Script

2x 10pink

2x6 Flamers 

1 Exalted 

changehost

And the remaining 100pts...so I have to add one daemon unit.

[Gwendar]

@Kharl I'd say another Exalted to allow you to split off the Flamer units if you need to and retain the +1 to hit.. although you'll probably want to keep them within the aura of mutability most of the time anyway.

Running some Brims to sit on home objectives\zone out your backline aren't bad ideas either though, but ideally I would want 2x10 for that purpose which you couldn't afford.

[MitGas]

Second Exalted is definitely a good pick but I'd also look into endless spells - they often helped me a LOT, if only for the tactical advantage. I'm very big on the pendulum, Balewind and Prismatic Palisade to cut off melee threats I don't want to engage but your style might be very different to mine.

[RUNCMD]

Just wanting to see if I have a rule correct about my list that I take at the moment, related to a Battalion and what can be taken, units wise.

I'm running a list that includes the Witchfyre Coven Battalion, that requires x 3 units of Kairics and x1 unit of Tzaangor Enlightened.

I take the Enlightened on Disc  to fill out the Enlightened required because in the core rules the section relating to Battalion's states that Sub-headings can be ignored unless they are required for the unit, here is the official wording:

BATTALION ORGANISATION: A warscroll battalion is made up of two or more units. You must decide which warscroll battalions you want to use and which units are in each one when you pick your army. Reinforcements cannot be part of a warscroll battalion.The organisation section of a battalion lists the titles or keywords for the units it can or must include. If an entry is the title of a unit, any unit with that title can be used (you can ignore sub-headers under the title unless they are included in the entry for the unit). Understrength units (pg 13) cannot be used as part of a warscroll battalion.

So my understanding is that I can take the Enlightened on Disc because the "on Disc" part is the sub-heading of the Warscroll.

Is anyone able to refute this at all, and also explain why?

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Just wanting to see if I have a rule correct about my list that I take at the moment, related to a Battalion and what can be taken, units wise.

I'm running a list that includes the Witchfyre Coven Battalion, that requires x 3 units of Kairics and x1 unit of Tzaangor Enlightened.

I take the Enlightened on Disc  to fill out the Enlightened required because in the core rules the section relating to Battalion's states that Sub-headings can be ignored unless they are required for the unit, here is the official wording:

BATTALION ORGANISATION: A warscroll battalion is made up of two or more units. You must decide which warscroll battalions you want to use and which units are in each one when you pick your army. Reinforcements cannot be part of a warscroll battalion.The organisation section of a battalion lists the titles or keywords for the units it can or must include. If an entry is the title of a unit, any unit with that title can be used (you can ignore sub-headers under the title unless they are included in the entry for the unit). Understrength units (pg 13) cannot be used as part of a warscroll battalion.

So my understanding is that I can take the Enlightened on Disc because the "on Disc" part is the sub-heading of the Warscroll.

Is anyone able to refute this at all, and also explain why?

This is correct. "On Disc" is a sub headi g so you can take them on foot or on disc in that battalion.

Although I'm not sure why GW didn't just bold the keyword instead to save us the confusion

[JackStreicher]

Can the DoT Take Slaves to Darkness Batallions (the Tzeentch one)?

[Gwendar]

16 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Can the DoT Take Slaves to Darkness Batallions (the Tzeentch one)?

Yes, we can.

[JackStreicher]

In this case my Raven Host will join the Lords the Lords of Faith!

[simakover]

On 8/31/2020 at 7:02 PM, Gwendar said:

I wouldn't say it's mandatory. Personally, I find that with them hitting\wounding on 2's they get the job done against pretty much anything. If you're shooting at something with Look out, Sir (so 4's to hit with an Exalted nearby) then you can use a CP for RR 1's but generally those support heroes are taken out regardless with 6 Flamers averaging 10 damage vs a 4+ save with Look out, Sir.

The below mathhammer shows the difference between 6 Flamers (hitting\wounding on 2's) and 10 Pink Horrors (hitting\wounding on 4's and 3's) with and without the Fatemasters RR's. Personally, I don't think he's worth 120 points to squeeze out 2-4 more damage out of stuff, but I suppose that all adds up if you have 2 Pink units and all 12 Flamers + Exalted Flamers shooting within that 9" aura.



The below has done reasonably well (10th overall at a large TTS tournament this past weekend going 2-1) but I prefer more wizards and Bridge + Spellportal + BW for my Changehost\Eternal Conflag lists:

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

 

is this list best for tournament play? looks like its best fit, but lack of endlesses worry me

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, simakover said:

is this list best for tournament play? looks like its best fit, but lack of endlesses worry me

Nothing is "best" but I would say it's pretty solid.. personally I like to have a Soulscream Bridge in my Eternal Conflag lists as well as more Wizards over the Fatemaster and that performs just as well\better than this does. I just took that list from someone who has been playing TTS tournaments and doing reasonably well with it as an example of something with the Fatemaster. Having the Bridge alongside Changehost just gets you in range to blast 2-4 units off the table right away and hope to get a double turn.

I really don't think Endless Spells are something that Tzeentch players should feel like something they need to have. I really find the only things used are the Balewind (almost exclusively to put a Changecaster or Blue Scribes on top of), Bridge, Spellportal and Geminids\Darkfire Daemonrift.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Gwendar

[Blisterfeet]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Nothing is "best" but I would say it's pretty solid.. personally I like to have a Soulscream Bridge in my Eternal Conflag lists as well as more Wizards over the Fatemaster and that performs just as well\better than this does. I just took that list from someone who has been playing TTS tournaments and doing reasonably well with it as an example of something with the Fatemaster. Having the Bridge alongside Changehost just gets you in range to blast 2-4 units off the table right away and hope to get a double turn.

I really don't think Endless Spells are something that Tzeentch players should feel like something they need to have. I really find the only things used are the Balewind (almost exclusively to put a Changecaster or Blue Scribes on top of), Bridge, Spellportal and Geminids\Darkfire Daemonrift.

To add to this. I predominantly been playing non changehost lists and I have found the following to be worth their points in the matches I've played. 

Prismatic palisade - for making the board smaller and sheilding against an obvious alpha.

Darkfire daemonrift - which I love when running a gaunt or Be'lakor

Umbral Spell portal - For the reach of me spells.

Soulscream Bridge - For putting Tzangors or Chaos chosen when you need them.

Eternal Lifeswarm - in horror MSU lists for maximum tarpit shenanigans.

Never really run more than 2 in my GoS and HoD lists. 

When I've run changehost I play horror heavy and tend to only take umbral portal.

[simakover]

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Nothing is "best" but I would say it's pretty solid.. personally I like to have a Soulscream Bridge in my Eternal Conflag lists as well as more Wizards over the Fatemaster and that performs just as well\better than this does. I just took that list from someone who has been playing TTS tournaments and doing reasonably well with it as an example of something with the Fatemaster. Having the Bridge alongside Changehost just gets you in range to blast 2-4 units off the table right away and hope to get a double turn.

I really don't think Endless Spells are something that Tzeentch players should feel like something they need to have. I really find the only things used are the Balewind (almost exclusively to put a Changecaster or Blue Scribes on top of), Bridge, Spellportal and Geminids\Darkfire Daemonrift.

sadly but im dont have bridge, can you recomend me list for open meta? have belakor, demonrift and all models for daemons tzeentch 

[Gwendar]

Just now, simakover said:

sadly but im dont have bridge, can you recomend me list for open meta? have belakor, demonrift and all models for daemons tzeentch 

You don't need bridge for Changehost\Eternal Conflag to work, I was just saying that I prefer having it but that's personal choice. The template for Changehost is pretty much that list above; 12 Flamers, 1-2 Exalted Flamers, LoC and 1-2 other Wizards (usually a Blue Scribes and Changecaster) and Pinks\Blue\Brims as needed to fulfil the battalion requirement. Fatemaster works well in that list if you want to go that route in place of the 2 other Wizards.

Usually Changehost just revolves around tabling your opponent while zoning out any surviving threats with Horrors; it's rather point and click and having a Soulscream Bridge just makes it even more-so, but it isn't a requirement. I do like Be'Lakor a lot but never ran him in Changehost\Eternal Conflag lists.. Daemonrift is great, you just really have to be careful with it. Luckily, a LoC\Kairos can dispell it right after you cast it to make sure it doesn't fly back at you.

[simakover]

like this? 
Lord of Change (380)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
Changehost (180)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

hm, looks odd. that changecaster and scribes will cast? gemenids looks better then vortex but costs a lot

[Gwendar]

14 minutes ago, simakover said:

like this? 
Lord of Change (380)
The Blue Scribes (120)
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (140)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
Changehost (180)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

hm, looks odd. that changecaster and scribes will cast? gemenids looks better then vortex but costs a lot

Pretty much. Geminids are nice and I tend to use them now over the Daemonrift when I run Be'lakor or a Sorcerer Lord in my magic based Hosts Duplicitous list. The thing with the Changecast is he's.. more or less the hero-killer. On that Balewind he's throwing out 2 different d6 MW spells (and an Arcane Bolt if you cast one of the former on a 9+'s which give's him another Spellcast)  from 24" away.. which works out nicely with the Blue Scribes RR's if you choose to use it.

Be'lakor works in this setup to just shut off something threatening, but I generally like the 2 Wizards paired with the tabling ability of 12 Flamers. My "main" Hosts Duplicitous list is a little more grindy in the sense that it uses Geminids and Be'Lakor and other means to give things -1 to hit or wound so you can shut off a lot of threats while you generate FP to summon in Blues with every turn.

[simakover]

6 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Pretty much. Geminids are nice and I tend to use them now over the Daemonrift when I run Be'lakor or a Sorcerer Lord in my magic based Hosts Duplicitous list. The thing with the Changecast is he's.. more or less the hero-killer. On that Balewind he's throwing out 2 different d6 MW spells (and an Arcane Bolt if you cast one of the former on a 9+'s which give's him another Spellcast)  from 24" away.. which works out nicely with the Blue Scribes RR's if you choose to use it.

Be'lakor works in this setup to just shut off something threatening, but I generally like the 2 Wizards paired with the tabling ability of 12 Flamers. My "main" Hosts Duplicitous list is a little more grindy in the sense that it uses Geminids and Be'Lakor and other means to give things -1 to hit or wound so you can shut off a lot of threats while you generate FP to summon in Blues with every turn.

so any changes to this list needed? 
and can you share youre duplicitous list ?

[Gwendar]

4 minutes ago, simakover said:

so any changes to this list needed? 
and can you share youre duplicitous list ?

I think it's fine.. I would try to get some games in and see how it works for you; a net list can only take you so far and if you only play locally then it may not work as well as something more tailored to your meta.

This is normally what I use, but I've been experimenting with dropping the Manticore and 10 Acolytes for a unit of 10 Pinks and a Magister on Disc for another spell that can throw out a Chaos Spawn. The Manticore is really just there to give the casting RR's for all the other Wizards on top of being a decent beatstick in combat that things can't run away from.. but potentially throwing out 2 Spawns a turn will keep a lot of things held up anyway and then all I'm losing is an anti-horde spell, but the Skyfires and Treason of Tzeentch usually take care of weak hordes anyway 😉

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 98
 

 

[simakover]

really like how belakor and kairos looks loke, but im have only horrors as battle line, so cant try this for now) as manticore

 

[Kopfnussklopfer]

Im a 100% noob, just painting and building my first AoS army

I already have alot of deamons (horrors, screamers, flamers and so on), but i wanted to add a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
First off all, what do you think about him in general? I thought his spell would be great together with Kairos.

2. If i use the Sorcerer on Manticore, i thought about using his passive, so i need some Slaves to darkness
The warscroll i liked the most are the Iron Golems. They have an Melee and a Ranged attack, which they can both use in Melee, right?
Then, if they dont move, i can reroll 2 times their saves (together with the Manticore)? Sounds good to me, please tell me why I am wrong

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Kopfnussklopfer said:

Im a 100% noob, just painting and building my first AoS army

I already have alot of deamons (horrors, screamers, flamers and so on), but i wanted to add a Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
First off all, what do you think about him in general? I thought his spell would be great together with Kairos.

2. If i use the Sorcerer on Manticore, i thought about using his passive, so i need some Slaves to darkness
The warscroll i liked the most are the Iron Golems. They have an Melee and a Ranged attack, which they can both use in Melee, right?
Then, if they dont move, i can reroll 2 times their saves (together with the Manticore)? Sounds good to me, please tell me why I am wrong

Been using him a lot recently (see list above) to great success.. and yeah, with Kairos it's a pretty great spell and you have something else that can kind of fight in CC if needed. To be honest though, I've mostly made up my mind about dropping him for the time being as he doesn't really do anything for the lists I run him in and while the spell is quite good, it can also be very swingy and Treason of Tzeentch tends be good enough for horde-clearing. Just note that I speak from a competitive\tournament point of view with mostly anything I say so.. if you don't care about that then don't mind me 😅

For your 2nd question, no.. missile weapons are only used in the shooting phase. And no to the 2nd part of that question as you can never re-roll a re-roll. To be honest, if you want to include a punchy Slaves to Darkness unit, 10-20 Chosen are really good, especially if paired with a normal Chaos Sorcerer Lord on foot as he can give them re-rolls to all saves, hits and wounds.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Gwendar