AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[RUNCMD]

7 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

Flamers @ 140 is a good start.  Its almost a 20% increase.  10 Pinks are fine @ 200.  20 Pinks prob need a bump.  Or rather Eternal Conflagration needs a bump.  Changehost definitely needs a bump.

Yeah flamers at 140 is all they really need imo. probs wont get a discount for taking bigger lots either.

RE: Pinks at a 20 man blob, I still think 400 points for a huge unit is more than enough really! That's a lot of points and whilst it is gross in a tournie setting, people pay the propper price for I think!

Changehost im really conflicted on. Since the FAQ it went down to one teleport. yes, it's a 1 drop, which is great, but at 180, pinks being 200 (probs going to 220 lets be real) and flamers going up to possibly 140, I think that it staying at 180 is still really exxy and probably going to keep the balance. Just my thoughts though.

What I think is that Gaunts should go up by 10 points each. A lot of people agree with me on this in my current scene/stores but by 20 is a bit Broken. but hey, see what happens! Maybe their demon summoning thing will get an FAQ as to only once per game, only one gaunt can do it kind of thing.

[Deadkitten]

4 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

What I think is that Gaunts should go up by 10 points each. A lot of people agree with me on this in my current scene/stores but by 20 is a bit Broken. but hey, see what happens! Maybe their demon summoning thing will get an FAQ as to only once per game, only one gaunt can do it kind of thing.

You might be right about leaving CH alone if all the pieces go up.  

The Guant Summoners are definitely going up ESPECIALLY if they nudge up Pinks.  But it's also GW.  I can see them bumping 10 Pinks to 220 birthed discounting the 20 block back to 400.  Except that's where all the power is.  Oh well.  We'll have to see. 

I thought about trying to run lists at the 220/480 level but my buddy basically said "don't worry until it happens"

[RUNCMD]

2 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

You might be right about leaving CH alone if all the pieces go up.  

The Guant Summoners are definitely going up ESPECIALLY if they nudge up Pinks.  But it's also GW.  I can see them bumping 10 Pinks to 220 birthed discounting the 20 block back to 400.  Except that's where all the power is.  Oh well.  We'll have to see. 

I thought about trying to run lists at the 220/480 level but my buddy basically said "don't worry until it happens"

Yeah unfortunately I see Gaunts going up. But hey, like you said, it's GW right! Lets wait and see, like your mate said. Hopefully we are pleasantly surprised!

Do you run Arcanites/Mortals or Daemons mostly?

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

I think if they go up to 140 that's still not too bad really. I personally think pinks are where they need to be and don't need a hike. They're nothing but a tar pit really. 

 

Pinks are where they should be if each model returned to the unit didn't net you 5 more wounds.

 

That interaction is the reason they need an increase or new warscroll.

[RUNCMD]

3 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Pinks are where they should be if each model returned to the unit didn't net you 5 more wounds.

 

That interaction is the reason they need an increase or new warscroll.

hahaha its a bit crazy isnt it! Maybe if they changed it to 1 blue per pink killed and 1 brim for that is fine, I personally love the mechanic as it is now from a thematic/lore stance, just suuuuuper annoying in a friendly battle so I tend to not take them for that reason.

I think the new warscroll and the split ability works way better now than what it did in the previous tome, where you counted the blue/brim points then had to summon them in off a hero... that really irked me because it felt as if you lost out tremendously if someone just sniped all your heros and you could effectively bring in another 20 or so blues and change the game objective wise.

I'm more so running pinks from a Guant at the moment, and running Arcanite/mortals as my main army. I find them way more interesting at the present.

[Ggom]

I wish running pinks didnt require painting 50 models at a minimum. Also from a cost perspective, running mortals is sooooo much cheaper. The idea and mechanics seem really cool, but I think I would break from the cost/effort.

[RUNCMD]

17 minutes ago, Ggom said:

I wish running pinks didnt require painting 50 models at a minimum. Also from a cost perspective, running mortals is sooooo much cheaper. The idea and mechanics seem really cool, but I think I would break from the cost/effort.

yeah I have A LOT of Blues and Brims sitting in a tub that I havent painted after I bought them all for a previous Daemon heavy Changehost (pre new tome) from back in the day. you could also run 3 units of Pinks easily in that old tome as they were cheap as, but now im like, naaaaaaaah, im good. One unit of Pinks is more than enough really!

 

[WargamerRyguy]

7 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Youre right regarding the two Dice having to sub in the 2 dice for a 2D6 roll. I really need to remember that because its pretty pivotal. As fsr as I am aware though you can use destiny dice to determine the random nature of a Hit Roll because you can sub in the dice for hit rolls, so if the LOC rod if 2D6 Hits i would have to burn those 2 DD and say " I get 8 hits because I used two 4 dices from my pool" and then I roll those 8 to see if they hit. But I could definitely be wrong! 

I totally would agree with you about using DD to determine the hit rolls of an attack, but if you look at the LoC warscroll and the Rod of Sorcery stats, the 2D6 is applied to the number of attacks the Rod of Sorcery has. So you roll 2D6 to determine how many dice you need to roll "To Hit" the target, which is on a 3+. It doesn't have a random to hit value. You still can use DD to determine if some of the 2D6 attacks hit the target, but honestly its kind of a waste since it hits on 3+ and wounds on 3+ and each DD would only apply to one of the "to hit" rolls.

Hope I'm not sounding too much like a rules lawyer here, I use the forum to clarify my understanding of the rules just as much as discussing tactics. Hope this clears things up! Have fun embracing the change! 

[RUNCMD]

3 minutes ago, WargamerRyguy said:

I totally would agree with you about using DD to determine the hit rolls of an attack, but if you look at the LoC warscroll and the Rod of Sorcery stats, the 2D6 is applied to the number of attacks the Rod of Sorcery has. So you roll 2D6 to determine how many dice you need to roll "To Hit" the target, which is on a 3+. It doesn't have a random to hit value. You still can use DD to determine if some of the 2D6 attacks hit the target, but honestly its kind of a waste since it hits on 3+ and wounds on 3+ and each DD would only apply to one of the "to hit" rolls.

Hope I'm not sounding too much like a rules lawyer here, I use the forum to clarify my understanding of the rules just as much as discussing tactics. Hope this clears things up! Have fun embracing the change! 

No you're totally right! And I checked what the DD can be used for and it doesnt say anywhere that the DD can  be used for replacing attacks of that nature, and i'll admit, I totally over looked that and just assumed! This is what happens with assumptions though, stuff ups happen!

Thanks for clarifying mate! because I've learnt something today and I would hate to rock up to a proper tournament and be like oh yep here we go, then be corrected by my opponent... thats just bad! I agree though, using the forum to clarify rules is important, so i thank you for the insight!

[RUNCMD]

Just looking at the new "Realm of Battle Rules" in the GHB2020 and im struggling to find some clarification on whether or not we can still take spells from certain realms in Malign Sorcery if our Army comes from that Realm... In the GHB 20202 it states:

"If you decide that your army is from a specific Mortal
Realm and wish to make one of your artefacts of power a
realm artefact, you must pick the realm artefact for your
chosen Mortal Realm from the following pages, instead
of using an artefact from Malign Sorcery."

Example, if my army is from the Realm or Fire, I can no longer take the Realm of Fire Artefacts, but I can take the Spells from the Malign Sorcery Book related to the Realm of Fire... Then when I play my opponent, we still choose a Realm to d-d-d-duel in, say Ghur for examples sake, giving me also the option to use the Ghus Spell, is that right?

OR is it because spells are not mentioned in the quote I took from the book above, that in fact the spells cannot be taken and we are only limited tot he ones in the new GHB?

[WargamerRyguy]

1 hour ago, RUNCMD said:

No you're totally right! And I checked what the DD can be used for and it doesnt say anywhere that the DD can  be used for replacing attacks of that nature, and i'll admit, I totally over looked that and just assumed! This is what happens with assumptions though, stuff ups happen!

Thanks for clarifying mate! because I've learnt something today and I would hate to rock up to a proper tournament and be like oh yep here we go, then be corrected by my opponent... thats just bad! I agree though, using the forum to clarify rules is important, so i thank you for the insight!

No problem at all, that's what its here for! Glad I could help! 

[Hannibal]

1 hour ago, RUNCMD said:

Just looking at the new "Realm of Battle Rules" in the GHB2020 and im struggling to find some clarification on whether or not we can still take spells from certain realms in Malign Sorcery if our Army comes from that Realm... In the GHB 20202 it states:

"If you decide that your army is from a specific Mortal
Realm and wish to make one of your artefacts of power a
realm artefact, you must pick the realm artefact for your
chosen Mortal Realm from the following pages, instead
of using an artefact from Malign Sorcery."

Example, if my army is from the Realm or Fire, I can no longer take the Realm of Fire Artefacts, but I can take the Spells from the Malign Sorcery Book related to the Realm of Fire... Then when I play my opponent, we still choose a Realm to d-d-d-duel in, say Ghur for examples sake, giving me also the option to use the Ghus Spell, is that right?

OR is it because spells are not mentioned in the quote I took from the book above, that in fact the spells cannot be taken and we are only limited tot he ones in the new GHB?

These days the realm rules were changed to the ones in the GHB. Realm spells were ever only usable if the battle was fought in that realm. There is or was no "choose one of the realm spells for each of your casters when you build your army" kind of thing. In short:

Army building process => choose the artifact if you wish

game set up => determine the realm in which the battle is taking place, every caster can use that realm spell during the game

[The World Tree]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Pinks are where they should be if each model returned to the unit didn't net you 5 more wounds.

 

That interaction is the reason they need an increase or new warscroll.

 

I do think one of the simplest fixes is that in order to do the 'split' you have to have purchase the blues and brimstones in the list building/have to spend fate points.

[RUNCMD]

41 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

These days the realm rules were changed to the ones in the GHB. Realm spells were ever only usable if the battle was fought in that realm. There is or was no "choose one of the realm spells for each of your casters when you build your army" kind of thing. In short:

Army building process => choose the artifact if you wish

game set up => determine the realm in which the battle is taking place, every caster can use that realm spell during the game

Thanks for the reply! Turns out my understanding of the way Malign Sorcery was to be used before was incorrect, so that is where my Confusion came from!

So many rules for this game! So easy to get confused lol.

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 hours ago, The World Tree said:

 

I do think one of the simplest fixes is that in order to do the 'split' you have to have purchase the blues and brimstones in the list building/have to spend fate points.

At the current points cost!? Thats such a massive nerf; they’d probably be the worst unit in the game.
 

They could just change Split back to the way it worked before this Battletome, except not let the Blue Horror and Brimstone Horror Fate Points/Summons interact with the regular ones. They were still a fantastic unit when you had to summon them in the next turn.

Edited July 18, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

5 hours ago, Ggom said:

I wish running pinks didnt require painting 50 models at a minimum. Also from a cost perspective, running mortals is sooooo much cheaper. The idea and mechanics seem really cool, but I think I would break from the cost/effort.

Ehh, arcanites take much longer to paint individually. Seriously; if you use contrast paint and drybrush you’ll paint all 50 of those horrors in considerably less time than 10 Tzaangors.

[DarrinTheOccult]

Two days ago I tested this unusual list:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the Future
Fatemaster (120)

Battleline
20 x Tzaangors (360)
- 12x Pair of Savage Blade
- 8x Savage Greatblade
15 x Chaos Warriors (300)
- Hand Weapon & Shield
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Hand Weapon & Shield

Units
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Cursed Lance

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 146
 

I played against Seraphon and I won.

We played Total Commitment. My plan was engaging his 2 bastiladons with pinks or warriors so the rest of his army had to deal with my tzaangors and magic stuff. The fatemaster would use his command aura for tzaangors and for skyfires to try those 6s for mortals on his heroes and bastiladons. However, in the first turn his bastiladons killed my fatemaster, changecaster and 2 skyfires. In that moment I thought that the game was pretty lost not gonna lie.

In my first turn I ran with the tzaangors for getting a 9+ charge and complete the +1 attack agenda. Obviously I used two destiny dice for that and engaged 30 skinks and a carnosaur (who had received 6 mortal wounds from the ogroid spell). It worked somehow without anymore buffs and destroyed the carnosaur and 18 skinks (they didn't fail battleshock test because of a spell). The other part of the army advance to the enemy trying to hide my heroes from bastiladons's sight and my chaos knights tried to charge one bastiladon but they only achieved to reach 20 skinks in front of him.

In second round I lost iniciative. Host duplicitous allowed me to mantain my tzaangors protected in combat as the remaining skinks couldn't retire, my opponent had to charge me with the bastiladon behind or, if I killed his skinks, in my turn I would charge him and capture one of the points. However by piling in in both turns I achieved it anyway. For the rest of the game, the tankiness of chaos warriors and summoned horrors didn't let my opponent getting close to my objetives, as his only fast unit (terradons) was swept by the ogroid.

Pretty fun game with a pretty fun list 🤣

 

 

[Deadkitten]

10 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

Do you run Arcanites/Mortals or Daemons mostly?

Just Daemons.  It's what I have the models for.  I'm not a big fan of the karic acolyte models.  My cultists will have chess club memberships instead of gym memberships.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Deadkitten said:

My cultists will have chess club memberships instead of gym memberships.

OMG, you win this thread!   

[RUNCMD]

21 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

Just Daemons.  It's what I have the models for.  I'm not a big fan of the karic acolyte models.  My cultists will have chess club memberships instead of gym memberships.

I feel like Tzeentch just plays 6D Chess anyway, so this is fitting!

[Deadkitten]

Played Forcing the Hand vs OB.  He ran 10 of the knights, 20 Guard, 10 guard, 3 units of the big dudes, and then few characters.

I deployed 10-20-10 with the Pinks, and supporting heroes, with the Knights and LOC sort of behind a bit center left.  He deployed Knights- 20 block - 10 with his characters and 2 Stalker units center.  He out dropped me (I'm intentionally running something less than CH and this is part of that I suppose) forcing me to go first. 

I basically just pushed up and consolidated on objectives.  I was trying to insulate both the knights and LOC as best I could.  His first turn he charged the 10 Pinks on my left.  He chopped them down to the Brimms but was unable to nab the objective.  I lost priority and he was able to retreat and charge the Brimms and tag the knights.  He put  1 of the stalker units into the knights and was able to sneak 1 into the LoC.  He put another into the 20 block in the center.  Highlight here was the LoC w his sword using DD for 6 wounds onto the Stalker unit.  On my turn I was able to clear out both Stalker units but the knights were just ill equipped to deal w his knights.  I put the LoC and Chaos Lord into them as well, which was a bit of an over extension but I needed to take a risk as I fell behind on points.  

Again, I lost the priority roll.  He retreated and charged again w the remaining knights and was also able to put in his 20 block of guard into my Knights and the general into the LoC.  He sent his 3rd unit of Stalkers into the 20 block of Pinks again.   He was able to clear out the knights, Lord and the LoC.  I had the center and had won the attrition battle on the right with 10 Pinks vs 10 Guard, but I had fallen too far behind on points by then.

Overall, not bad, I suppose.  I would have been in much better shape if I had won either of the two critical priority rolls.  I'm not sold on the lances on the knights.  3 attacks @ 3+/3+/-2 R/ 2 D on the charge is mighty tasty but the setup cost might be too high.  The weapons would have let me grind with the OB knights.  As it was they just couldn't put out any damage.  I had an error in not DD charging 10 summoned Blues in to the dog-pile on the objective.  That was worth a VP and might have set me up to come back late game.   Finally, I should have watched for where the knights went down and put the Changeling opposite them.  That extra -1 to hit would have changed things for sure.  

[RUNCMD]

8 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

Played Forcing the Hand vs OB.  He ran 10 of the knights, 20 Guard, 10 guard, 3 units of the big dudes, and then few characters.

I deployed 10-20-10 with the Pinks, and supporting heroes, with the Knights and LOC sort of behind a bit center left.  He deployed Knights- 20 block - 10 with his characters and 2 Stalker units center.  He out dropped me (I'm intentionally running something less than CH and this is part of that I suppose) forcing me to go first. 

I basically just pushed up and consolidated on objectives.  I was trying to insulate both the knights and LOC as best I could.  His first turn he charged the 10 Pinks on my left.  He chopped them down to the Brimms but was unable to nab the objective.  I lost priority and he was able to retreat and charge the Brimms and tag the knights.  He put  1 of the stalker units into the knights and was able to sneak 1 into the LoC.  He put another into the 20 block in the center.  Highlight here was the LoC w his sword using DD for 6 wounds onto the Stalker unit.  On my turn I was able to clear out both Stalker units but the knights were just ill equipped to deal w his knights.  I put the LoC and Chaos Lord into them as well, which was a bit of an over extension but I needed to take a risk as I fell behind on points.  

Again, I lost the priority roll.  He retreated and charged again w the remaining knights and was also able to put in his 20 block of guard into my Knights and the general into the LoC.  He sent his 3rd unit of Stalkers into the 20 block of Pinks again.   He was able to clear out the knights, Lord and the LoC.  I had the center and had won the attrition battle on the right with 10 Pinks vs 10 Guard, but I had fallen too far behind on points by then.

Overall, not bad, I suppose.  I would have been in much better shape if I had won either of the two critical priority rolls.  I'm not sold on the lances on the knights.  3 attacks @ 3+/3+/-2 R/ 2 D on the charge is mighty tasty but the setup cost might be too high.  The weapons would have let me grind with the OB knights.  As it was they just couldn't put out any damage.  I had an error in not DD charging 10 summoned Blues in to the dog-pile on the objective.  That was worth a VP and might have set me up to come back late game.   Finally, I should have watched for where the knights went down and put the Changeling opposite them.  That extra -1 to hit would have changed things for sure.  

I like that you really didnt mind going first. I really hope the meta changes to people opting to go first more often with the new armies that are about and some of the current battleplans! Makes for a more interesting and tactical game instead of just going for the double turn.

What did your actual list look like in the end though? from what I gather it was:

x1 LOC

x1 Chaos Lord on daemonic mount?

x3 units of pinks, 10 block, 20 block, 10 block

x1 block of chaos knights? (10?)

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 hours ago, Deadkitten said:

Played Forcing the Hand vs OB.  He ran 10 of the knights, 20 Guard, 10 guard, 3 units of the big dudes, and then few characters.

I deployed 10-20-10 with the Pinks, and supporting heroes, with the Knights and LOC sort of behind a bit center left.  He deployed Knights- 20 block - 10 with his characters and 2 Stalker units center.  He out dropped me (I'm intentionally running something less than CH and this is part of that I suppose) forcing me to go first. 

I basically just pushed up and consolidated on objectives.  I was trying to insulate both the knights and LOC as best I could.  His first turn he charged the 10 Pinks on my left.  He chopped them down to the Brimms but was unable to nab the objective.  I lost priority and he was able to retreat and charge the Brimms and tag the knights.  He put  1 of the stalker units into the knights and was able to sneak 1 into the LoC.  He put another into the 20 block in the center.  Highlight here was the LoC w his sword using DD for 6 wounds onto the Stalker unit.  On my turn I was able to clear out both Stalker units but the knights were just ill equipped to deal w his knights.  I put the LoC and Chaos Lord into them as well, which was a bit of an over extension but I needed to take a risk as I fell behind on points.  

Again, I lost the priority roll.  He retreated and charged again w the remaining knights and was also able to put in his 20 block of guard into my Knights and the general into the LoC.  He sent his 3rd unit of Stalkers into the 20 block of Pinks again.   He was able to clear out the knights, Lord and the LoC.  I had the center and had won the attrition battle on the right with 10 Pinks vs 10 Guard, but I had fallen too far behind on points by then.

Overall, not bad, I suppose.  I would have been in much better shape if I had won either of the two critical priority rolls.  I'm not sold on the lances on the knights.  3 attacks @ 3+/3+/-2 R/ 2 D on the charge is mighty tasty but the setup cost might be too high.  The weapons would have let me grind with the OB knights.  As it was they just couldn't put out any damage.  I had an error in not DD charging 10 summoned Blues in to the dog-pile on the objective.  That was worth a VP and might have set me up to come back late game.   Finally, I should have watched for where the knights went down and put the Changeling opposite them.  That extra -1 to hit would have changed things for sure.  

Yeah; Lances only really work well with a Slaanesh mark, Karkadrak, RR Hit buff and Teleport. So not a strong pick for Tzeentch.

[Deadkitten]

2 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

I like that you really didnt mind going first. I really hope the meta changes to people opting to go first more often with the new armies that are about and some of the current battleplans! Makes for a more interesting and tactical game instead of just going for the double turn.

What did your actual list look like in the end though? from what I gather it was:

x1 LOC

x1 Chaos Lord on daemonic mount?

x3 units of pinks, 10 block, 20 block, 10 block

x1 block of chaos knights? (10?)

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
The Changeling (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (400)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Chaos Knights (360)
- Cursed Lance
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102
 

[RUNCMD]

15 minutes ago, Deadkitten said:

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration
Lord of Change (380)
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount (170)
The Changeling (120)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (400)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Chaos Knights (360)
- Cursed Lance
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 102
 

Solid. Hoping those Chaos knights go down in points when the FAQ is dropped by GW. I think they're a bit over priced atm but they are awesome models (the new ones anyway)!

That's a lot of Horrors for one person to deal with lol. Do you think the 20 blob is the way to run Pinks these days?