AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Forrix]

1 hour ago, NJohansson said:

At 180 with summoning (even blues) he still is probably a bargain for the points (80-100 points for a two spell wizard, access to both lores and STD endless spells - yes please). Right now I don’t see me ever taking a list without one or two in it unless I go Changehost. 

Hell even in changehost I think he's a strong choice. You go up a drop but get access to Arcane Suggestion which I have found essential in keeping my supposedly immortal Horrors alive long enough to score objectives or screen my damage dealers. And he can benefit from the LOC +1 to cast and Host Dupilicitous's command trait since he's a daemon too (never been sure how that works).

[Fiddybucks]

On 2/25/2020 at 3:32 PM, Fiddybucks said:

Problem with the vortex base is it’s not a perfect circle. Not sure how TOS would rule a stand in. I’ll measure mine when I get home and post it 

It’s roughly 4” diameter circle. Sorry for delay. Hope that helps.

[Sacrednikki89]

22 hours ago, Fiddybucks said:

It’s roughly 4” diameter circle. Sorry for delay. Hope that helps.

Thanks muchly, I'm gonna make one for each army I play even if I never use it, I just think they're neat.
Now, thanks to you, I can!

[Luke1705]

So one thing I was thinking about and wanted to make sure I was playing correctly - you can only get horrors back from the pink banner while the banner is alive, and you need to kill pinks first (except in battleshock) so if they do 10 wounds to the squad that you fail to save/pass FNP for, you cannot auto pass battleshock with a destiny dice of 1 and you cannot return any horrors to the squad any more (barring lifeswarm shenanigans).  Is that correct?

I'm thinking about using a lifeswarm to try and bring the command models back and get some mid game shenanigans, or debating if I just want to use endless spells to run over a handful of guys and guarantee that I'm going to be able to use that 1 to increase the squad size.

[Hebroseph]

Yes, you have to pull from pinks till they are all gone. You then can bring them back via fold reality or lifeswarm, and you can choose to bring back the icon so that they can then benefit from 1's during battleshock

 

[Forrix]

3 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Yes, you have to pull from pinks till they are all gone. You then can bring them back via fold reality or lifeswarm, and you can choose to bring back the icon so that they can then benefit from 1's during battleshock

 

My understanding though is that they still have to adhere to the 1 in 10 rule so you could only bring them back if you rezz'd 10 models or if the Icon Bearer would be the 10th model added to the unit.

[Dreadmund]

57 minutes ago, Forrix said:

My understanding though is that they still have to adhere to the 1 in 10 rule so you could only bring them back if you rezz'd 10 models or if the Icon Bearer would be the 10th model added to the unit.

I think that only applies during setup, not when returning slain models to a unit.

[Fiddybucks]

2 hours ago, Forrix said:

My understanding though is that they still have to adhere to the 1 in 10 rule so you could only bring them back if you rezz'd 10 models or if the Icon Bearer would be the 10th model added to the unit.

Since you are returning slain models with life swarm/ fold reality/ multitudinous host you can return the icon bearer even if 0 pinks are left.

 

[NinjaBadger7]

Hey all 😁

Any thoughts on this 1k list for casual play?

[simakover]

After nerfing changehost im dont saw tzeentch list in top 3 on tourneys. Is this hard nerf or people just now learn how counter tzeench and he's not OP anymore?

[Tommm]

You just need to look in the right places. Tzeentch are doing excellent.

 

[simakover]

4 hours ago, Tommm said:

You just need to look in the right places. Tzeentch are doing excellent.

 

Hm, have some lists. Interesting how lists looks like

[Hebroseph]

I couldnt find any lists, just the placings. I've been running acolyte heavy in pyrofane with witchfire coven. It would be interesting to see how his list was worked up. Is it using bare minimun 3 x 10 acolytes and 3 foot enlightened to bring his drops down and get a relic? is he running acolyte heavy and summoning in LoC? etc. 

 

[Grotruk]

3 hours ago, simakover said:

Hm, have some lists. Interesting how lists looks like

Where ? 😜

 

[simakover]

In a world

[AverageBoss]

In regards to the GS, summoning is all he does. He has no other support abilities. And we have much better (and safer) options for horde clearing. You can get more spells for less points (magister + changeling for example). And I believe he is our most fragile unit for points cost. Hes also very slow (unless we are talking the disk version, which is a different discussion), and the horrors he summons will also be slow. He is VERY good. But he certainly has downsides I feel are overlooked.

[NJohansson]

2 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

In regards to the GS, summoning is all he does. He has no other support abilities. And we have much better (and safer) options for horde clearing. You can get more spells for less points (magister + changeling for example). And I believe he is our most fragile unit for points cost. Hes also very slow (unless we are talking the disk version, which is a different discussion), and the horrors he summons will also be slow. He is VERY good. But he certainly has downsides I feel are overlooked.

I feel you are underselling the GS as to his abilities and performances. The horrors are deployed 9” and can move in the same turn so they are definitely not slow. Then he counts for the Locus ability so he provides the -1 to hit that the horrors need so his speed is not an issue due to him needed to babysit the unit for maximum efficiency. Last but not least - he has access to both spell lists so he is a very good spellcaster for literally no points (counting the horrors).

 

[Vulcania]

On 2/18/2020 at 12:17 PM, Hebroseph said:

Karios can not be in a changehost. 

 

I was see a lot of Nurgle Tournament army list with THRICEFOLD BEFOULMENT and ROTIGUS as one of the 3 Great Unclean as he has the Keywords.

Why Karios are different? I think Karios is the same and can be part of a Changehost warscroll 😉

 

[Sedraxis]

23 minutes ago, Vulcania said:

I was see a lot of Nurgle Tournament army list with THRICEFOLD BEFOULMENT and ROTIGUS as one of the 3 Great Unclean as he has the Keywords.

Why Karios are different? I think Karios is the same and can be part of a Changehost warscroll 😉

 

Because the Thricefold Befoulment lists  bolded 3x GREAT UNCLEAN ONE keyword as requirement while Changehost lists the specific Lord of Change warscroll. Compare it to the HORROR HEROES listed in the same battalion.

Bolded = anything with the keyword

Normal = specific warscroll

[Vulcania]

2 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

Because the Thricefold Befoulment lists  bolded 3x GREAT UNCLEAN ONE keyword as requirement while Changehost lists the specific Lord of Change warscroll. Compare it to the HORROR HEROES listed in the same battalion.

Bolded = anything with the keyword

Normal = specific warscroll

I don't know this rule, thanks for your reply 😉

[AverageBoss]

8 hours ago, NJohansson said:

I feel you are underselling the GS as to his abilities and performances. The horrors are deployed 9” and can move in the same turn so they are definitely not slow. Then he counts for the Locus ability so he provides the -1 to hit that the horrors need so his speed is not an issue due to him needed to babysit the unit for maximum efficiency. Last but not least - he has access to both spell lists so he is a very good spellcaster for literally no points (counting the horrors).

 

How many points is Occular Visions worth though? How many points is Arch-deceiver and puckish misdirection? Frantic Scribbling and Scrolls of Sorcery? Those are the types of abilities the GS trades for its summon. And as I said before you can get just as many (or more) spells, from both lores, for equal or less points, at more than twice the overall durability.

I missed the Horrors being able to move after being summoned. That is something that should certainly change imo.

[Hebroseph]

14 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

How many points is Occular Visions worth though? How many points is Arch-deceiver and puckish misdirection? Frantic Scribbling and Scrolls of Sorcery? Those are the types of abilities the GS trades for its summon. And as I said before you can get just as many (or more) spells, from both lores, for equal or less points, at more than twice the overall durability.

I missed the Horrors being able to move after being summoned. That is something that should certainly change imo.

I think you are comparing apples to oranges when talking about grapes.  Most of the casters in tzeentch answer a question.  You need to use the correct fruit for the equation. Are you running change host and want to aggressively jump 20 pinks first turn? Take Changeling. Are you running guild of summoners and want more consistency ? Take blue scribes. Are you wanting to cast Darkfire rift ? take Gaunt Summoner. 

End of the day Tzeentch is blessed with a multitude of super efficient casters. 

Gaunt Sumoner on disc, 2 cast, Mortal and Daemon, Flies and applies -1 locus to daemons, summons 10 pinks who can move and shoot in the same turn. Has access to StD endless spells. Cost 60 points

Changeling 2 cast, daemon, corner cast teleport, gives out -1 locus to daemons, additional -1 if the enemy gets close, doesnt have a warscroll spell but can learn others, 120 pts

Blue Scribe,  1 cast, but can learn spells, provides rerolls and a very consistent cast chance, flies and provides -1 locus to daemons.  120 pts

All of these are amazing options. 

Also you imply that you get twice the durability by taking a changeling and a blue scribe for the same cost of gaunt summoner, but don,t factor in the 50 hitpoints you get from the pinks which i don't think is very fair. Especially since the Changeling doesnt have a warscroll so his 2 casts arnt the most useful, and scribes are normally locked into their rerolls. Plus pinks can cast till they die so its almost like having a 3rd cast for summoning points. 

 

 

[Xyxel]

Also GS has an option to deal D6 MW in combat (with Destiny Dices). Changeling and Scribes do not.

[Hebroseph]

If your gaunt summoner is in combat, you normally have a problem lol. 

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

A bit of strange request, but I played a 1500-ish point game between S2D (me) vs. DoT.  My army did fine, but my friend's was a little glum at the performance of his.  I think is biggest complaint was nothing in his army seemed to synergize.

For reference my army was:

Karkadrak Chaos Lord, Chaos Lord on Foot, Sorcerer Lord on Foot, 15 Warriors (sword and board) x2, 10 Knights (Ensorcelled Weapons)

All Undivided, Ravagers Legion

His army was something like:

Lord of Change, Changling, Gaunt Summoner on Disk, Changecaster, 10 Horrors, 6-9 Screamers x2, all three Tzeentch endless spells, Battalion of some sort

 

I found that his screamers held my battleline in place for a few rounds, but didn't really whittle them down much even with who/what ever was giving them buffs.  Certainly annoying being waylaid 3 rounds, but not really locking me down as I just used Rally the Tribes to bring in Warcry Cultists to secure objectives.  The Tzeentch Predatory spell probably did more damage (and I don't think he will be bringing that for a while) to him that it did to me since I have Runic Shields on just about everything.  The Changling also seemed like a waste as he was off on his own trying to harass my Warriors and Sorcerer garrisoned in a ruin only to ambushed my some unmade to prevent his retreat allowing the Warriors to encircle and destroy him.

The Horrors seemed to do alright, but I think he just has the 1 set of each color of models so I think next game I will borrow him my set of Pink, Blue and Yellows.  The Lord of Change was his MVP but was so battered from the Tzeentch Predator spell and my Karkadrak Lord (who he killed) it had to stay away from even my Warcry Cults and maybe even my Eye of the gods Furies (my Karkadrak Lord defeated his Gaunt Summoner).   My opponent also summoned in another group of Screamers with an artifact, but they too just held up my remaining Knights and lesser group of Warriors the rest of the game. 

I never really engaged the Pink Horrors until I had to block them from an objective since I felt that they would be a game long attrition battle I didn't want to start unless I had reason to.  Finally, he seemed annoyed he wasn't getting Destiny Dice as fast as he would have liked.  I don't know how that system works though.

 

Anyways,

I think my opponent would have better luck with more Horrors.  I think he also has 3 flamers and I have 3 flamers to borrow so I think they could work well as skirmishers (in the traditional battle sense).  I believe he said he has an Exalted Flamer, if not I have one, that I hear is a really good unit in AoS.  So I was wondering what he could do to punch of his army.  I am thinking he can use the screamers to fly over my units engage them and bring in Horrors (or Warriors himself) in a pincer which could both encircle and devastate my Battlelines.

Also, Has there been any change to DoT taking S2D units with Tzeentch Marks?  I suggested that my opponent consider some Chaos Warriors or something other S2D mortal unit to hold ground, but he was under the impression he would have to ally.  I don't know for sure, but I don't think that is the case.

 

Sorry for the long post, I had a lot of ground to cover to set up the situation.