AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sacrednikki89]

Forgot, I also own a Gaunt Summoner but with no Pink Horrors to summon I figure he's not earning his points without the extra units

[AverageBoss]

14 minutes ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

Forgot, I also own a Gaunt Summoner but with no Pink Horrors to summon I figure he's not earning his points without the extra units

I would recommend a Pink box and another blue/brim box since you already have 10x blues/brims and a GS.

The realm listing is for realm artifacts. Whichever realm your army comes from gives you access to those realms artifacts in addition to those found in your allegiance. Ghur is the realm of beasts, and I am pretty sure the Gryph Feather Charm is the most popular artifact from that list (flat -1 to hit the bearer, +1" move).

[Sacrednikki89]

Thanks for clearing that up, are the tzeentch endless spells worth buying?

[AverageBoss]

13 minutes ago, Sacrednikki89 said:

Thanks for clearing that up, are the tzeentch endless spells worth buying?

They are decent, but common consensus seems to be that the StD and BoC ones we have access to are better.

[Hebroseph]

I think they definitely have a place, but they are more of a niche place. Its easier to just slam down a doomfire rift and do a bunch of damage. its harder to place a burning sigil down to take benefits of multiple effects over different turns. 

[Xelotath]

Quick question on the rules apologies if this has been covered, if a unit of pink horrors is wiped out in 1 shooting or combat phase will they still split? Because it says you add blue horrors to the unit if the unit no longer exists I would assume they don’t? 
cheers

[Dreadmund]

3 minutes ago, Xelotath said:

Quick question on the rules apologies if this has been covered, if a unit of pink horrors is wiped out in 1 shooting or combat phase will they still split? Because it says you add blue horrors to the unit if the unit no longer exists I would assume they don’t? 
cheers

Wounds are allocated 1 at a time. So one pink dies, spawns two blue, then another pink dies. So yes, you still get blues. And furthermore, if you take 12 wounds, 10 pinks and 2 blues die, because those wounds are still inflicted on the unit which now contains blue horrors. Hope that makes sense.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Dreadmund

[Rentar]

 

Official response on Horrors, destiny dice, and battleshock.

[Paniere]

24 minutes ago, Rentar said:

 

Official response on Horrors, destiny dice, and battleshock.

man this is the hugest nerf we got from the faqs 

[Grotruk]

Must be stupid (or not fluent in english enough :D) but still don't understand:

I understood the trick doesn't work anymore. Isn't it ?

[Grotruk]

And probably wasn't intented at the beggining ><. But at least it's clear now.

I think a clearer formulation would be "Destiny Dices don't exist anymore"

Edited February 5, 2020 by Grotruk

[Sedraxis]

6 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

And probably wasn't intented at the beggining ><. But at least it's clear now.

I think a clearer formulation would be "Destiny Dices don't exist anymore"

What!? One of our 4+ allegiance abilities doesn't give me insane points advantages anymore!? Inconceivable! 

I think it's great they responded fast for once instead of forcing us to wait another 6 months, and this ruling certainly has my preference since it always feels kinda cheaty to do. Especially after killing your own models with endless spells 😁

Hopefully they will answer some more questions sooner rather then later.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Sedraxis

[Paniere]

2 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

And probably wasn't intented at the beggining ><. But at least it's clear now.

it worked in the previous tone and it still worked with the new one. then they oversaw the BS immunity shenanigans and put a patch in the wrong way ( instead of modifying the wording in the core rules about BS and modifiers), this way overnerfing horrors survivability. now we need to roll a natural 1 to bring back horrors IF we have the chance to , before they get down ro blues only, so from 0 to 1 time a game

[Jackroks981]

So folks what’s our thoughts on Tzaangors at the moment? I’ve been running them exclusively for the past couple of years now, both as beasts and Tzeentch, never found them terribly  competitive due to the unreliability of 4s to hit, very low bravery and requiring nearby heroes to buff them. With what amounts to a points hike thanks to the horde discount disappearing and enlightened on disc going up, do you think they’ve gained enough tools to get the extra edge they need so desperately? What are you planning on running with Tzaangors going forward? I’d love to do a coven battalion but the buy in cost units wise is through the roof and leaves me with one hero essentially!

[Creamster]

Hi all, 

Recently stuck together my first DoT models and played a few games since the new book. Have a rules question on cult of transient form command ability. If the unit takes 3 wounds, let's say from a D3 attack, do I roll each of gift change abilities one at a time, in case previous wound kills a model? I'm assuming not if it's from the same attack, but different attack weapon choices from the same model would allow command ability to stack?

[Xelotath]

1 hour ago, Rentar said:

 

Official response on Horrors, destiny dice, and battleshock.

Looks like they deleted the reply and changed it as they’re not sure 

[Rentar]

Alas. ****** FB team jumped the gun again. 

[NJohansson]

Just now, Rentar said:

Alas. ****** FB team jumped the gun again. 

During the age when GW had their own forum there soon became a prevailing understanding that unless official answer (as in FAQ) then there is no actual answer. Until they make a full interpretation (either direction) In the official FAQ I will keep playing it the way that it always has been (a 1 return Pinks). 

[BillyOcean]

2 hours ago, NJohansson said:

During the age when GW had their own forum there soon became a prevailing understanding that unless official answer (as in FAQ) then there is no actual answer. Until they make a full interpretation (either direction) In the official FAQ I will keep playing it the way that it always has been (a 1 return Pinks). 

I concur. Trust the community team to muddy up the issue! I would be shocked if the rules team come down with the same ruling because it requires a complete redefining how modifiers are applied. 

Specifically, in the core rules it states that "an unmodified dice roll refers to the result after any rerolls but before any modifiers apply".

A destiny dice is modified as normal by the number of dead models in a battleshock test. Before applying the modifier, the value of the dice is 1, i.e. its unmodified value is 1.. So, it triggers the Pink Horror banner rule. I don't see any other reading of the rule, unless it is specifically reworded to state that destiny dice break the italicized core rule above, i.e. there is no such thing as "before the modifier is applied". It would be a very weird precedent indeed. 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by BillyOcean

[Dreadmund]

Apparently the community account later deleted the thread? It's like they did everything they could to give both sides of the argument as much rhetorical ammunition as possible to make it as hard as possible to reach a consensus in the community. I would be totally fine with losing the ability to use DD to bring back pinks via battleshock. But I want that written down somewhere official, not a facebook post.

[Sumanye]

Yeah, nothing the AoS community says on FB matters.  They have been wrong plenty of times in the past.

[Lou_Cypher]

Given the halfway nerf of Changehost's single teleport only now... is it agreed that the Changeling is now the most important tool for it?

It can deploy anywhere essentially, providing the loci required for the unit chosen to teleport. 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Lou_Cypher

[Grotruk]

5 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

What!? One of our 4+ allegiance abilities doesn't give me insane points advantages anymore!? Inconceivable! 

In fact I'm complaining a bit because destiny dices were for me Tzeentch signature. I would prefer to have only 1 or 2 allegiance(s) ability(ies) (instead of 4) and keep my main "DD combos". I find the mechanic a bit sick (and unintuitive) now. 

Initially (in the first book) Mastery of magic was probably designed to make combos with DD

Same issue with Pink battleshocks.

I agree with that was superstrong, but the design seems a bit "Meh" now (IMO)

It sounds to me as you could'nt use your shoes for walk anymore, but saying It's still ok because you can use it as a kind of gloves

But i'm not complaining at all about the general power level of the book.

[Sumanye]

5 hours ago, Jackroks981 said:

So folks what’s our thoughts on Tzaangors at the moment? I’ve been running them exclusively for the past couple of years now, both as beasts and Tzeentch, never found them terribly  competitive due to the unreliability of 4s to hit, very low bravery and requiring nearby heroes to buff them. With what amounts to a points hike thanks to the horde discount disappearing and enlightened on disc going up, do you think they’ve gained enough tools to get the extra edge they need so desperately? What are you planning on running with Tzaangors going forward? I’d love to do a coven battalion but the buy in cost units wise is through the roof and leaves me with one hero essentially!

Tzaangors have 2 tools worth mentioning in this book imo.  Fatemaster and Reckless Abandon.  Tzaangor attack profiles are hot garbage (not just the stats, but a unit of shield Tzaangors needs to make 5 separate attack rolls each combat!!) and so the only thing you care about is Savage Greatblades.  This means the optimal unit of Tzaangors to run is 20.  At 20 you can get 8 Greatblades (1 of which is the twistbray) in combat and probably all 4 Mutants and the rest stand in the back with shields and soak up wounds.  Obviously you get them into combat if you can, but the point is, the 8 Greatblades and 4 Mutants are the unit and the rest are wounds to keep those Greatblades and Mutants at +1 attack.  So, 10 Tzaangors has too few Greatblades and will easily lose +1 attack and 30 Tzaangors has no horde bonus and likely won't reliably get all 4 extra Greatblades into combat making them a waste points wise, though if you think you can, it could be worth it.  

My calculations assume a 4+ save and a unit of 20 Tzaangors.  If you give Tzaangors the Fatemaster buff (which Fatemaster also activates Destined Mayhem) and Reckless Abandon, you are looking at an average of 26.8 damage vs 9.22 damage unbuffed.  So these buffs nearly triple Tzaangor damage.  Now it seems natural to compare to 6 Enlightened (since they cost the same) who achieve 30.17 damages under the same conditions (Fatemaster and Reckless Abandon) vs 17.26 unbuffed.  Enlightened squeeze out like 3 more damage if they bring a Shaman too (read: Shaman is a waste if you take a Fastemaster for your Enlightened).  Now each have their advantages; Tzaangor are 40 wounds with a 6++ with run and charge and fill a battleline, but Enlightened have 16" move and fly.  Note I also assumed that Enlightened do not try to trigger Guided by the Past, since I do not feel that is really optimal especially with a Fatemaster already giving rerolls and loss of fold reality.  Also note, Arcane Suggestion can increase damage further, though I do not include it because it is less straight forward how one would reliably pull it off for multiple reasons.

One final comparison is Tzaangor Skyfires with a Shaman.  Without Fatemaster or Reckless Abandon, but with Shaman and shooting and charge on their turn, Skyfires can achieve 18.74 damage, slightly higher than Enlightened under the same conditions (though for 20 points more).  In my mind, this is the ideal way to run Tzaangors.  Take a unit of 20 Tzaangors with a Fatemaster and 6 Skyfires with a Shaman.  These 2 units now do not share buffs and both perform rather well and the Shaman can even help heal the Tzaangors if he is close.  You can also run them in Alter-Kin coven with Acolytes to save on drops.  Alter-Kin isn't great, but it is 1/6 chance to do d3 MW and it also triggers in your opponents charge phase as well (so twice per round per unit stuck in combat with your Tzaangors).  For me, I'm looking at running this setup in Guild of Summoners (after I finish building and painting my second LoC) giving the Fatemaster the Brimstone familiar to eliminate battleshock on my Tzaangors.  Arcanites are not the best this book has and neither are Tzaangors, but I'm a Tzaangor enthusiast and plan to play them anyway.

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by Sumanye

[Sinfullyvannila]

9 hours ago, Sedraxis said:

What!? One of our 4+ allegiance abilities doesn't give me insane points advantages anymore!? Inconceivable! 

I think it's great they responded fast for once instead of forcing us to wait another 6 months, and this ruling certainly has my preference since it always feels kinda cheaty to do. Especially after killing your own models with endless spells 😁

Hopefully they will answer some more questions sooner rather then later.

Ummm people have been bowling over their pinks with endless spells and then bringing them back with 1’s on Destiny Dice since endless spells came out.

What’s baffling about this and the Master of Magic ruling is precisely that these things were common practice well before this book came out.

Edited February 5, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila