Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Sumanye said: The definition of summoning is choosing a model off the summoning table. There is no general rule in AoS that defines what summoning is. For Tzeentch, summoning comes from the summon table as explained in the Battletome under "From the Crystal Labyrinth" where it clearly defines what summoning is and how it works, and Kairos isn't on that table. The GoS ability may use the LoC keyword, but it doesn't give you permission to bypass the table and it doesn't change the rules on how summoning works. I don't think this is necessarily true. Gaunt summoner uses the word summon and has nothing to do with the battletome's summoning table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Daramiz said: I don't think this is necessarily true. Gaunt summoner uses the word summon and has nothing to do with the battletome's summoning table. yeah but a kind of "alternative summoning table" is mentionned Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, Daramiz said: I don't think this is necessarily true. Gaunt summoner uses the word summon and has nothing to do with the battletome's summoning table. True! The guild of summoners says summon using Fate points, and that is explained under "From the crystal Labyrinth". If anything, this is what I'm trying to say, the word summon is not defined without context in AoS. Either way, the Designer Commentary says you can't summon Kairos with Fate Points, and even if someone wants to try and be "that guy" with summoning rules, ultimately Guild of Summoners ability uses fate points and Kairos can't be summoned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, Sumanye said: True! The guild of summoners says summon using Fate points, and that is explained under "From the crystal Labyrinth". If anything, this is what I'm trying to say, the word summon is not defined without context in AoS. Either way, the Designer Commentary says you can't summon Kairos with Fate Points, and even if someone wants to try and be "that guy" with summoning rules, ultimately Guild of Summoners ability uses fate points and Kairos can't be summoned. Yeah I think the mention of fate points is the clear distinction. There is no rule anywhere that lets you spend fate points for a Kairos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyOcean Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 14 minutes ago, Sumanye said: The definition of summoning is choosing a model off the summoning table. There is no general rule in AoS that defines what summoning is. For Tzeentch, summoning comes from the summon table as explained in the Battletome under "From the Crystal Labyrinth" where it clearly defines what summoning is and how it works, and Kairos isn't on that table. The GoS ability may use the LoC keyword, but it doesn't give you permission to bypass the table and it doesn't change the rules on how summoning works. I (respectfully) disagree based on previous wording, but the FAQ has made a moot point, so not worth arguing about now! 😀 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 And no rules in AOS that mention 1<2<3<4<5<6 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Forrix said: Yup, I reread the errata. They FUBAR'd their wording so DD count as modified for save or battleshock rolls (or at least there's a very strong argument that they do). There's no argument for it. Zero. The errata is quite clear it says "If you spend a Destiny Dice to replace a battleshock test, the result of that Destiny Dice is modified by the number of models slain from that unit as normal." No where in there does it say that Destiny Dice count as being modified, it says they can be modified as normal. That's like saying if you roll a 1 on the dice naturally it doesn't count as unmodified because it can be effected by number of models slain. Edited February 3, 2020 by Karragon 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Karragon said: There's no argument for it. Zero. The errata is quite clear it says "If you spend a Destiny Dice to replace a battleshock test, the result of that Destiny Dice is modified by the number of models slain from that unit as normal." No where in there does it say that Destiny Dice count as being modified, it says they can be modified as normal. That's like saying if you roll a 1 on the nice naturally it doesn't count as unmodified because it can be effected by number of models slain. An earlier paragraph: In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls Edited February 3, 2020 by Daramiz formatting 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 You're right. This is (Imo) because Games doesn't really considered "model slains" as a regular modifier. But no rules in the core rules really validate this intention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Daramiz said: An earlier paragraph: In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls I'm just going to quote someone off twitter to answer that: Quote FAQ: "If you use Fly High within 3" of an enemy it does not count as a retreat." Therefore if you use Fly High from outside of 3" it does count as a retreat? Normal rules apply where not explicitly overridden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrix Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Karragon said: There's no argument for it. Zero. The errata is quite clear it says "If you spend a Destiny Dice to replace a battleshock test, the result of that Destiny Dice is modified by the number of models slain from that unit as normal." No where in there does it say that Destiny Dice count as being modified, it says they can be modified as normal. That's like saying if you roll a 1 on the nice naturally it doesn't count as unmodified because it can be effected by number of models slain. The actual quote from the errata "In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls and cannot be re-rerolled or modified further" Pretty clear to me that its exempting save and battleshock tests from counting as unmodified rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, Forrix said: The actual quote from the errata "In addition, any rolls that have been replaced (with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests) count as unmodified rolls and cannot be re-rerolled or modified further" Pretty clear to me that its exempting save and battleshock tests from counting as unmodified rolls. It's qualifying that the ones that can't be modified count as unmodified. The ones that can be modified are unmodified until you modify them or unless the rule explicitly states that they are modified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Karragon said: I'm just going to quote someone off twitter to answer that: The problem is fly high is listing an exception to existing established rules (retreat). This is quite literally the rule establishing whether DD count as modified or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Yeah, Pretty sure the intention was destiny dice roll of 1 would work with pinks but the wording is kinda meh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Just now, Daramiz said: The problem is fly high is listing an exception to existing established rules (retreat). This is quite literally the rule establishing whether DD count as modified or not. But there's already a rule that qualifies what unmodified is. "Unmodified dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rerolls but before any modifiers are applied" 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) Tzeentch has divided the world by 0, he founds 9 Edited February 3, 2020 by Grotruk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrix Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Grotruk said: Yeah, Pretty sure the intention was destiny dice roll of 1 would work with pinks but the wording is kinda meh. That was my thought too. If they just stated that destiny dice used for save rolls and battleshock can still be modified then there wouldn't be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou_Cypher Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 Might be that the roll counts as unmodified, therefore triggering D6 Horrors back. But then the modifier is applied after to determine how many flee, I think. Also, who really uses Destiny Dice for spellcasting with a Lord of Change? They have a strong, built-in safety net for decent rolls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forrix Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Karragon said: But there's already a rule that qualifies what unmodified is. "Unmodified dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rerolls but before any modifiers are applied" Then why would they specify that destiny dice count as unmodified in their rules? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 5 minutes ago, Karragon said: But there's already a rule that qualifies what unmodified is. "Unmodified dice roll are referring to the result after any re-rerolls but before any modifiers are applied" Just to remove the parenthesis in their wording: "Any rolls that have been replaced count as unmodified rolls, with the exception of save rolls and battleshock tests." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 I agree the wording on the DD change is poor. But my read is this... The rules say all DD are unmodified and can't be modified or rerolled with 2 exceptions. Then it explains what those exceptions are. Those exceptions do not mention a change to the "counts as unmodified roll" or the "can't be rerolled". So my read is, BS and save DD are unmodified and can't be rerolled, but they are modified by models slain and rend as normal. So if you spent DD on your LoC with +1 save Command Trait to save a rend -1 attack, you would need to spend a 5 DD and your opponent could not make you reroll the save. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, Lou_Cypher said: Also, who really uses Destiny Dice for spellcasting with a Lord of Change? They have a strong, built-in safety net for decent rolls. This was strong when you could cose to use one dice. A single destiny dice of 5 made at least a 10 cast roll for example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karragon Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 1 minute ago, Forrix said: Then why would they specify that destiny dice count as unmodified in their rules? Because otherwise there is no way to determine if they count as unmodified or not because you can't reroll or modify them, so the existing way or working out if the dice roll is unmodified doesn't apply. Battleshock DD can be modified so we can reliably determine if they are unmodified or not, which they are, because it is the value before those modifiers are applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grotruk Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Sumanye said: I agree the wording on the DD change is poor. But my read is this... The rules say all DD are unmodified and can't be modified or rerolled with 2 exceptions. Then it explains what those exceptions are. Those exceptions do not mention a change to the "counts as unmodified roll" or the "can't be rerolled". So my read is, BS and save DD are unmodified and can't be rerolled, but they are modified by models slain and rend as normal. So if you spent DD on your LoC with +1 save Command Trait to save a rend -1 attack, you would need to spend a 5 DD and your opponent could not make you reroll the save. This is my read too but everybody won't share this because of ambiguous wording. They should write "For save rolls and battleshock rolls, the modifiers below still apply (Rend/number of slain models),the roll is still considered as an unmodified roll" Edited February 3, 2020 by Grotruk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daramiz Posted February 3, 2020 Share Posted February 3, 2020 2 minutes ago, Karragon said: Battleshock DD can be modified so we can reliably determine if they are unmodified or not, which they are, because it is the value before those modifiers are applied. I feel like I'm roleplaying an obnoxious rules lawyer here, but we can't even determine anything based on this because the rules say BS DD can be modified further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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