AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grimrock]

16 minutes ago, Forrix said:

Agreed. I wish DD played smoother but I'm not against the end result power wise.

On the Gaunt Summoner I mostly find it odd that one of his summons is about 2x the value of his other summons. Plaguebearers, Bloodletters, and Daemonettes are all above 100 points but only a bit and generally want to be taken in big units and of course, don't benefit from the GS's locus.

2x the value and more that 4x the monetary cost, makes perfect sense to me haha. If it's too strong I'm sure they'll nerf it to just be blues, but not until the summer when people have already bought everything needed for pinks. 

Overall the changes look fine. I won't feel like a bad person for playing tzeentch and I'm nowhere near as worried playing against them. Seems fair to me.

Edited February 3, 2020 by Grimrock

[BillyOcean]

10 hours ago, Hebroseph said:

I'm surprised you settled on 20-20-10, i figured most pyrofane lists would have a 30 man squad for sure. I would also be interested in hearing your list and thought process into your choices!  I'm a huge fan of pyrofane but have only put it on the table once so far. 

I certainly don't think 30-blocks are bad. But building a Witchfyre Coven basically goes as follows for me: Grab 6 Enlightened on disc and a Fatemaster; select the other heroes I want; fill up on Acolytes with remaining points. After I've bought my heroes, I usually only have space for 50 acolytes so my choice is 30-10-10 or 20-20-10. For the following reasons, I settled on 20-20-10:

1. Can cover more of the table with a useful hero phase shooting threat. With 30-10-10, my opponents were able to manage the range more easily and often end up only taking 10 shots. It is harder for them to stay clear of both 20s. 

2. Better manages the risk of failing the rend spell. If you fail it on the 30-block its quite disappointing. If you fail it on one of the 20-blocks, you just shoot with the other in the hero phase. 

3. Gives less of an obvious target for horde-killer spells. 

Having said that, I can certainly see the argument for 30-10-10 so it will come down to personal preference. And some people will be trying to fit more than 50 acolytes in their list, at which point a 30-block makes sense. 

 

[GeneralZero]

I think that the GS is fine as it is now. Maybe a point adjustment in summer in GH. But I don't see it OP. For me, the cost is right (except if you spam him). 4 of him in a GS, give you close (or even more) to the 9 fate points to get a free LoC in addition to 4*10 pink (and thus 200+16 free wounds) T1.  You still have 1000 points to spend for your core army. LOL.

Back to destiny dice: Do I have to declare that I use one (or more) DD BEFORE rolling something or after seeing the dice rolls (and replace the failed ones by a DD)?

[Forrix]

15 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Gaunt summoner is the best faster or one of the best spells in the book. Arcane suggestion. It needs an 8 with a LoC around they can catch the +1 to cast buff. Guild of summoners would let the model pink up a second boost to casting. Making that spell realisticly castable. 

 

-1 to hit and -1 to wound is really strong. 

Don't forget the Blue Scribes for reroll casting rolls.

[Freejack02]

I think the only surprising change was on the LoC no longer changing casting rolls on DD - the rest just seemed like common sense. All those people who were adamant that the battleshock DD changes were intentional/good, or that Kairos being summoned was intentional, need to remember that we're dealing with the GW rules team here... it's takes a few runs to get it right. 

[Darkhan]

How do you guys calrify the Destiny Dice for pinks? Using a 1 gives back D6? Or you can't do that since destiny dice in BS phase counts as modified, where you need a unmodifed 1 to get back pink, meaning rolling a natural one.

My mates are destroying each other over this discussion at the moment😂

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

Gaunt summoner is the best faster or one of the best spells in the book. Arcane suggestion. It needs an 8 with a LoC around they can catch the +1 to cast buff. Guild of summoners would let the model pink up a second boost to casting. Making that spell realisticly castable. 

 

-1 to hit and -1 to wound is really strong. 

All Tzeentch mortal wizards can take Arcane Suggestion. And all of them benefit from the GoS buff. Yes, the GS alone can get an additional +1 from a LoC... for an extra 380 point investment. There are lots of things you can do with 400 points for other wizards (or in general) though.

[Sumanye]

3 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Interesting changes tbh: they balance the battletome. But I am a bit disappointed that in a guild of summoners, you can't summon kairos. It wasn't  OP. And kairos being a named character, you weren't able to have more than one on the battlefield anyway.

But, as was said many times before, you were never able to summon him; rules were very clear despite instance otherwise in this thread.  This wasn't a change, as it was in the Designer Commentary.

 

Also, shout out to the real MVP of this FAQ.  Acolytes with Glaives and Shields!

[Grotruk]

13 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

How do you guys calrify the Destiny Dice for pinks? Using a 1 gives back D6? Or you can't do that since destiny dice in BS phase counts as modified, where you need a unmodifed 1 to get back pink, meaning rolling a natural one.

My mates are destroying each other over this discussion at the moment😂

Omg that's why this unmodified dice roll rule formulation is so weird. There will be issues forever

[Forrix]

21 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

How do you guys calrify the Destiny Dice for pinks? Using a 1 gives back D6? Or you can't do that since destiny dice in BS phase counts as modified, where you need a unmodifed 1 to get back pink, meaning rolling a natural one.

My mates are destroying each other over this discussion at the moment😂

If you use a DD of 1 for battleshock you get the d6 pinks back (and auto-pass). They still count as unmodified its just that they can be modified if its a save roll or battleshock roll.

[Sumanye]

23 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

How do you guys calrify the Destiny Dice for pinks? Using a 1 gives back D6? Or you can't do that since destiny dice in BS phase counts as modified, where you need a unmodifed 1 to get back pink, meaning rolling a natural one.

My mates are destroying each other over this discussion at the moment😂

Destiny dice in BS does not count as modified.  It says the result is still modified by the model slain, which is totally different and doesn't matter for Horror Icon Bearer ability.  Using a 1 DD is still an unmodified roll.  Read another way, models slain don't count as a "modifier" in the same sense that other modifiers count, such as "+1 to hit". 

Edited February 3, 2020 by Sumanye

[MitGas]

Looks like Guild of Summoners can still summon Kairos. 😚

[Grotruk]

This is what is intented but the formulation isn't 100% clearto me because it's written "Destiny Dice count as unmodified rolls (except save rolls and battleshock rolls)"

Some players are going to mention that to say a Destiny dice of 1 can't return d6 pinks.

 

[Malakithe]

Why would they change the LoCs CA to only affect daemons? Its not like there are crazy busted mortal casters. 

Makes me wonder the LoCs value now. Is he still worth the 380pts?

[Grotruk]

1 minute ago, Malakithe said:

Why would they change the LoCs CA to only affect daemons? Its not like there are crazy busted mortal casters. 

Makes me wonder the LoCs value now. Is he still worth the 380pts?

Uh ? The LoC CA have always affected daemons only, no ?

[Sumanye]

I'm fine with these changes, and as others have said, nothing is a surprise except the LoC ability.  Almost unnecessary since I'll be banking all those CP for Inspiring Presence now anyway.

My feeling on DD now are that they feel a bit useless tbh.  I think the changes were good, but with those changes AND the requirement to use 2 DD on 2d6, AND no modifiers, AND no Mastery of Magic...  I feel like outside of an outstanding DD roll or buying DD reroll abilities, we will probably use DD once or twice a game for a big charge or cast.  Maybe a few smaller charges.  Not complaining, I think Teentch is plenty powerful.  But I guess I'm saying, if I forgot to roll my DD, I don't think I'd really miss them.  The DD roll use to be the most exciting part of playing Teentch and I'm not really feeling that anymore IMO. 

[Malakithe]

3 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Uh ? The LoC CA have always affected daemons only, no ?

Wait...yeah i totally read that wrong lol

Edited February 3, 2020 by Malakithe

[Daramiz]

6 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

This is what is intented but the formulation isn't 100% clearto me because it's written "Destiny Dice count as unmodified rolls (except save rolls and battleshock rolls)"

Some players are going to mention that to say a Destiny dice of 1 can't return d6 pinks.

 

Ugh, I hate that you are right. They can really struggle to use their words correctly sometimes.

[Grotruk]

2 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

I'm fine with these changes, and as others have said, nothing is a surprise except the LoC ability.  Almost unnecessary since I'll be banking all those CP for Inspiring Presence now anyway.

My feeling on DD now are that they feel a bit useless tbh.  I think the changes were good, but with those changes AND the requirement to use 2 DD on 2d6, AND no modifiers, AND no Mastery of Magic...  I feel like outside of an outstanding DD roll or buying DD reroll abilities, we will probably use DD once or twice a game for a big charge or cast.  Maybe a few smaller charges.  Not complaining, I think Teentch is plenty powerful.  But I guess I'm saying, if I forgot to roll my DD, I don't think I'd really miss them.  The DD roll use to be the most exciting part of playing Teentch and I'm not really feeling that anymore IMO. 

Totally agree with this feeling. The next version will be "you can only replace a roll by the same roll"

[Malakithe]

Yay for Acolytes. Glaive + Shield time!

Back to mortal list building.

[CountryMou3e]

8 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Looks like Guild of Summoners can still summon Kairos. 😚

Nope 

[PUFNSTUF]

7 minutes ago, CountryMou3e said:

Nope 

Yea I don't know why people still tried to game it like that, seemed pretty obvious that wasn't the intent originally. Happy it's clarified for those people now. 

I like the arcanite glaives and shields change, and changehost switch is fine, should make it more manageable.

[BillyOcean]

40 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

But, as was said many times before, you were never able to summon him; rules were very clear despite instance otherwise in this thread.  This wasn't a change, as it was in the Designer Commentary.

It wasn't a change to the generic summon table, where it is listed as (unit name) Lord of Change. But its a change to the Guild of Summoners, where it is stated that for 9 fate poimnts they can summon (keyword) LORD OF CHANGE.

I suppose it could be argued that Guild can still summon Kairos because specific overwrites generic and Guild's rule is more specific than the regular summon table. But, that is reaching quite a bit, and you're not going to convince opponents its ok. I prefer to read the FAQ as a blanket ban on summoning Kairos, including in Guild, and plan to play it that way.

Edited February 3, 2020 by BillyOcean

[Forrix]

21 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

This is what is intented but the formulation isn't 100% clearto me because it's written "Destiny Dice count as unmodified rolls (except save rolls and battleshock rolls)"

Some players are going to mention that to say a Destiny dice of 1 can't return d6 pinks.

 

Yup, I reread the errata. They FUBAR'd their wording so DD count as modified for save or battleshock rolls (or at least there's a very strong argument that they do).

[Sumanye]

1 minute ago, BillyOcean said:

It wasn't a change to the generic summon table, where it is listed as (unit name) Lord of Change. But its a change to the Guild of Summoners, where it is stated that for 9 fate poimnts they can summon (keyword) LORD OF CHANGE.

I suppose it could be argued that Guild can still summon Kairos because specific overwrites generic and Guild's rule is more specific than the regular summon table. But, I feel like thats reaching quite a bit, and it's going to be difficult to convince opponents of. I prefer to read the FAQ as a blanket ban on summoning Kairos, including in Guild, and plan to play it that way.

The definition of summoning is choosing a model off the summoning table.  There is no general rule in AoS that defines what summoning is.  For Tzeentch, summoning comes from the summon table as explained in the Battletome under "From the Crystal Labyrinth" where it clearly defines what summoning is and how it works, and Kairos isn't on that table.  The GoS ability may use the LoC keyword, but it doesn't give you permission to bypass the table and it doesn't change the rules on how summoning works.