AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sumanye]

30 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Paragraphs and thought out sentences describing rules isnt an oversight. They fully meant for DD to be unmodifiable. From a lore stand point they are meant to twist and tweak fate and reality and thats what the DD do.  They wont change the entire mechanic but might tweak what they can be used for such as they did for spell damage.

The oversight in question is the fact that the number of models slain in a unit counts as a modification and thus, DD ignore battleshock.  I still expect this will get FAQ’ed, though I really hope it won’t.

Also, you have never been allowed to use destiny dice to modify spell damage. Everything that destiny dice can be used for in the new book is the same as the old book, except they can now actually be used to dispel too.  It’s worded explicitly now in the new book about damage rolls, but even in the old book it says you may use DD to modify a “damage roll” and spell damage is NOT a damage roll.  This is also explained in the core rules designer commentary.

[Daramiz]

48 minutes ago, Malakithe said:

Paragraphs and thought out sentences describing rules isnt an oversight.

The regular release of errata by GW suggests that they do sometimes overlook things in their sentences describing rules. 

[NJohansson]

51 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

It’s worded explicitly now in the new book about damage rolls, but even in the old book it says you may use DD to modify a “damage roll” and spell damage is NOT a damage roll.  This is also explained in the core rules designer commentary.

In the old book it was also clearly stated that you could not use DD to change mortal wounds so spell damage was always of the table regardless of any other circumstances.

[GeneralZero]

Few tzeentch things revealed in the Everchoosen book. Nothing awesome atm...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/30/wrath-of-the-everchosen-14-awesome-armiesgw-homepage-post-4/

[NJohansson]

17 hours ago, Sumanye said:

I mean, Locus of Change is a thing, so yes, I assume a competent player will have a hero next to their Horrors and also know how to screen it.  Nobody said the DD on battleshock wasn't strong; it is strong indeed.  I said it wasn't the reason Horrors are bonkers and changing it isn't going to keep horrors from being bonkers if you are a competent player.

The problem with internet and discussions is that generally everything occurs in a vacuum. In a perfect world any units of horrors will have the Changeling within range of the enemy, Geminids and other de buffing spells on key enemy units and the right amount of command points/ Destiny dice ready for use.  This game is about managing resources and the more resources that you have available the more powerful your army generally gets.

That is why I would argue that 10 Horrors in a vacuum are not an unreasonable unit. They are really strong but there are other similarly strong units in the game. The horrors only become a real problem when you use them in one of two very strong sub factions, use 20 from the beginning, add the changehost, add de buffs/buffs and on top of that use Destiny dice. Because of this there is really no one solution - and the worst one is to increase the cost of the unit because 300 point for a unit of 10 horrors may still be to powerful in a Host Duplicitous but will render them useless in a regular army.

That’s why I strongly hope for minor changes to a lot of things (for example tweets to changehost, flamers, Gaunts, rules for cults, DD) but hopefully those changes are limited to small tweaks to each rule instead of one/two major knee ****** reactions.

[Sumanye]

23 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

In the old book it was also clearly stated that you could not use DD to change mortal wounds so spell damage was always of the table regardless of any other circumstances.

That actually isn’t stated.  It just says “damage rolls”, which is often confused by people thinking generating mortal wounds is the same as a damage roll, which it isn’t, hence the designer commentary.  The new book does not say damage roll, it’s says “damage characteristic of melee or middle weapon”, which is what “damage roll” always meant, it’s just stated explicitly since this seemed to be a point of confusion.

[Sumanye]

10 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

The problem with internet and discussions is that generally everything occurs in a vacuum. In a perfect world any units of horrors will have the Changeling within range of the enemy, Geminids and other de buffing spells on key enemy units and the right amount of command points/ Destiny dice ready for use.  This game is about managing resources and the more resources that you have available the more powerful your army generally gets.

While I don’t disagree, I think the difference between a novice and experienced player is how reliably you get your units into that perfect world, and that can be done very easily for horrors.  And I’ll say it again, the fact the horrors don’t need to take battleshock at all, whether it be from CP or DD, completely eclipses the fact that spending DD instead of CP gives Tzeentch more resources to work with and thus makes them slightly stronger.  It’s true, DD for battle shock makes Tzeentch stronger, but in a way that is insignificant to how powerful horrors are.  IMHO of course!

[NJohansson]

10 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

That actually isn’t stated.  It just says “damage rolls”, which is often confused by people thinking generating mortal wounds is the same as a damage roll, which it isn’t, hence the designer commentary.  The new book does not say damage roll, it’s says “damage characteristic of melee or middle weapon”, which is what “damage roll” always meant, it’s just stated explicitly since this seemed to be a point of confusion.

[Sumanye]

1 minute ago, NJohansson said:

 Ah interesting. My battletome does not say that, it’s just says damage roll without the ( e.g.).  I must have an older printing.  Well, guess we are both right lol?

[newsun]

Battleshock modifies bravery, not the die roll. 

[Daramiz]

2 minutes ago, newsun said:

Battleshock modifies bravery, not the die roll. 

Models killed is a positive modifier to the die roll. The horde bonus is a positive modifier to bravery.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Daramiz

[newsun]

11 minutes ago, Daramiz said:

Models killed is a positive modifier to the die roll. The horde bonus is a positive modifier to bravery.

Oh mixed those two together.

 

[NJohansson]

32 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

 Ah interesting. My battletome does not say that, it’s just says damage roll without the ( e.g.).  I must have an older printing.  Well, guess we are both right lol?

Posted just for clarity - I guessed that we had different editions. Probably a clear example why the best way forward would be a living e-rulebook with clear dates regarding which edition is the last. Best for the game although I really love to have physical prints in the shelf.

[LordPrometheus]

2 hours ago, NJohansson said:

 

That’s why I strongly hope for minor changes to a lot of things (for example tweets to changehost, flamers,

Flamers are fine, why does everyone keep freaking out about them? Oh noes, can't let Tzeentch have good shooting! /sarcasm font

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

Flamers are fine, why does everyone keep freaking out about them? Oh noes, can't let Tzeentch have good shooting! /sarcasm font

9 flamers have a threat range of 27”. They will generally hit on 3+ (Minimum) and wound on 3+. In some instances they will also re roll attacks and wounds. Depending on one big unit or three small ones you are looking at 28-30 attacks of which around 12 will wound (more like 20+ if you do things properly) which will be 24 - 40+ wounds -2 rend. This is without any Changehost or other special tech and if translated to points will easily erase more than a quarter of your opponents army. That is some real serious damage potential - just on average.

The flamer unit(s) cost 360 point. A lot of people are saying how squishy they are but what can really touch them? Most shooting or magic will be top priority and the Tzeentch player has in addition to the shooting mortal wounds through spells in abundance - so range supremacy is more or less guaranteed (99 percent of the army has good shooting/magic). We can also summon in more of them if they start dropping/Fold reality back sporadic losses and to add insult to injury we have some of the games best screens so melee is not going to touch them either.  Sure - there are some armies that can deep strike/pull of some really long range threat that will realistically be able to hurt them but those armies are far between.

How people think that they are fine is beyond my understanding. Don’t get me wrong - I love Tzeentch and it is my main army and has been since 7ed, but the unit is stupidly good for its points. A -1 to hit would still make it a very good unit point for point.

[Deathtone_shade]

7 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

9 flamers have a threat range of 27”. They will generally hit on 3+ (Minimum) and wound on 3+. In some instances they will also re roll attacks and wounds. Depending on one big unit or three small ones you are looking at 28-30 attacks of which around 12 will wound (more like 20+ if you do things properly) which will be 24 - 40+ wounds -2 rend. This is without any Changehost or other special tech and if translated to points will easily erase more than a quarter of your opponents army. That is some real serious damage potential - just on average.

The flamer unit(s) cost 360 point. A lot of people are saying how squishy they are but what can really touch them? Most shooting or magic will be top priority and the Tzeentch player has in addition to the shooting mortal wounds through spells in abundance - so range supremacy is more or less guaranteed (99 percent of the army has good shooting/magic). We can also summon in more of them if they start dropping/Fold reality back sporadic losses and to add insult to injury we have some of the games best screens so melee is not going to touch them either.  Sure - there are some armies that can deep strike/pull of some really long range threat that will realistically be able to hurt them but those armies are far between.

How people think that they are fine is beyond my understanding. Don’t get me wrong - I love Tzeentch and it is my main army and has been since 7ed, but the unit is stupidly good for its points. A -1 to hit would still make it a very good unit point for point.

I don’t know where you see that flamer can reroll to wound or have -2 rend but you’re wrong at this point 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

-1 rend with confrag, absolutely no rend without this coven

reroll all to hit with the fatemaster command and need to be WW 9’’ of it

+1 to wound with the artefact aura of mutability WW 9’’ of the bearer

 

 

[NJohansson]

10 minutes ago, Deathtone_shade said:

I don’t know where you see that flamer can reroll to wound or have -2 rend but you’re wrong at this point 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

-1 rend with confrag, absolutely no rend without this coven

reroll all to hit with the fatemaster command and need to be WW 9’’ of it

+1 to wound with the artefact aura of mutability WW 9’’ of the bearer

 

 

Sometimes typing while doing other things makes you a moron (so thanks for the correction) should definitely have been -1 on rend (with conflagration) and just re-roll to hit - was sloppy and did not check all numbers before posting. The damage (and rend) goes down to 20-36 on average while the rest of the post still remains the same.  Still not seeing that it is not a very (to strong unit).

once again - sorry for wrongish numbers:)

 

[Lord Krungharr]

I think Flamers are certainly better than they used to be, way better.  But still they're pretty easy to kill at 2 wounds each with a 5+ save.  Also I think we'll be seeing the Prismatic Palisade in use more often now.  Shooting is becoming far more prevalent in AoS now.

 

Is there a battalion that one can put a bunch of Flamers and not much else within?  No tome yet, maybe tomorrow I can go get one.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Lord Krungharr

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think Flamers are certainly better than they used to be, way better.  But still they're pretty easy to kill at 2 wounds each with a 5+ save.  Also I think we'll be seeing the Prismatic Palisade in use more often now.  Shooting is becoming far more prevalent in AoS now.

 

Is there a battalion that one can put a bunch of Flamers and not much else within?  No tome yet, maybe tomorrow I can go get one.

The Warpflame Host - 1 Exalted Flamer and up to 8 other “flamer” type of units. The reward is meh but can be worth it if you want flamers but no Changehost.

[Sinfullyvannila]

13 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Gloomspite have been doing this for a while with their spider pot endless spell. 

 

It definitely wasnt an oversight. The old book and DD worked the same way. The old system and this new one are the same except for the new unmodified part. And the old one was changed cuz it used to allow you to change the result of the damage of the spells themselves. 

They also changed how you could use them in 2d6 rolls.

[Deathtone_shade]

4 hours ago, Lord Krungharr said:

I think Flamers are certainly better than they used to be, way better.  But still they're pretty easy to kill at 2 wounds each with a 5+ save.  Also I think we'll be seeing the Prismatic Palisade in use more often now.  Shooting is becoming far more prevalent in AoS now.

 

Is there a battalion that one can put a bunch of Flamers and not much else within?  No tome yet, maybe tomorrow I can go get one.

I think that people will ajust their list with the current meta too.

 

OBR with nagash in elite petrifex can be really hard to deal with. Dust the chicken with the spell portal and his 2+ rerollable is nasty

I played againt fyreslayer last week

the artefact on the totem that WW 12’’ ignore spell effect on 4+ is so good, was hard to deal with the carracter who always good protect againt flamer shooting and spellcasting

hearthguard berserker are so good.  Against a good player, its really hard to deal against 60 HG berserker buffed

[whispersofblood]

8 hours ago, Deathtone_shade said:

I don’t know where you see that flamer can reroll to wound or have -2 rend but you’re wrong at this point 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

-1 rend with confrag, absolutely no rend without this coven

reroll all to hit with the fatemaster command and need to be WW 9’’ of it

+1 to wound with the artefact aura of mutability WW 9’’ of the bearer

 

 

Fyi Arcane suggestion is a thing, and is a great spell for the changeling.

[Dreadmund]

4 hours ago, whispersofblood said:

Fyi Arcane suggestion is a thing, and is a great spell for the changeling.

Do you mean Arcane Transformation? Arcane Suggestion is an Arcanite spell, so the changeling can't take it.

[whispersofblood]

42 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

Do you mean Arcane Transformation? Arcane Suggestion is an Arcanite spell, so the changeling can't take it.

Nope totally forgot its lore of fate, totally pulled it from memory. 

[Malakithe]

Slightly changed my theoretical Pyrofane list. Decided to accept the Enlightened as a tax and went minimal with them. They are essentially 100 wasted points. Went with more magic. Vortemis actually has a role since his spell can give free Inspiring to the blocks of Acolytes.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult

Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
Vortemis the All-Seeing (140)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Magister (100)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (100)
4 x Eyes of the Nine (0)
Witchfyre Coven (160)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Wounds: 123