AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

20 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

They will have one within the next 2-3 weeks, they always do. Will it have major changes? Maybe, maybe not, but the FAQ will be out.

Also from my understanding; this is why they sanction “Man reads book” reviews before release . Part of the policy is that the reviewers submit a FAQ report so that they can get these out ASAP. 

[Gwendar]

42 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Changehost and any other list with Lord of Change uses his command ability every turn.

This is from my personal experience with running new Horrors and using DD and inspiring presence on them. I have no idea how that top tier tournament player couldn’t pressure the Tzeentch player enough to deplete his destiny dice by the end of the game.

My point is that they don't have to use that CP for the +1 to cast. It's obviously beneficial, but if I can see my Horrors are about to get smacked with 20-30 damage you better believe I'll reserve a CP to spend it later and make sure they don't run if I need to hold the objective they're occupying for another turn. You preventing them from capping it is literally a make or break moment in a lot of games. The winning Cancon game wasn't anything over the top, it was actually quite close all things considered.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Gwendar

[Sinfullyvannila]

59 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

My point is that they don't have to use that CP for the +1 to cast. It's obviously beneficial, but if I can see my Horrors are about to get smacked with 20-30 damage you better believe I'll reserve a CP to spend it later and make sure they don't run if I need to hold the objective they're occupying for another turn. You preventing them from capping it is literally a make or break moment in a lot of games. The winning Cancon game wasn't anything over the top, it was actually quite close all things considered.

Then Horrors become an overpriced liability that are a list trap with exception of the ones you can bring in with the Gaunt Summoner.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Olmdebil]

So is it still possible for a cast to take one destiny dice and turn the other with the Loc ability? 

[newsun]

2 minutes ago, Olmdebil said:

So is it still possible for a cast to take one destiny dice and turn the other with the Loc ability? 

No, would need to spend two dd

[Grotruk]

Is it really clear now ?

[Xyxel]

Toying with idea that Pink's shooting and objective holding should be maximized :

- LoC, Blue Scribes, Changeling, Fatemaster
- 20+10+10 Pinks, 3x10 Brimstones
- Balewind Vortex
- Changehost, Conflagration
1940 total - aiming for geting Triumph roll

Scribes on Vortex can reach with Boon of Tzeentch (casting reroll) 18+6" to 20+10 Pinks teleported forward (and other casters).
Fatemaster with his 16" move should be able to keep with those 30 Pinks to give them hit re-rolls (also in combat!)
Changeling Arch-devicer-ed to +3" from the enemy (no endless spells to cast anyway) gives -1 to Pinks (-2 on him) to hit, being a 120 points bait/blocker.

Ignax Scales on Fatemaster for 4++ so he may have a chance to CP re-rolls at least for two turns of Horrors shooting.
3x10 Brimstones for screening objectives and heroes. 10 Pinks for second layer or objective teleport in turn 2-3.
LoC is disposable bait (to safekeep Horrors) if no teleports will be needed. Fate Points Summons for more Pinks (more wounds).

Tides of Anarchy agenda is huge on 20 Pinks which split into two Blues.
What would You change (lol) in this list?

Edited January 28, 2020 by Xyxel

[Martijn de Bruin]

I have 2 rules question that came up during my first game:

Changecaster: Does the Fortune and Fate ability trigger on subsequent casts (or extra casts i.e. on Balewind) or is the wording for 1 extra spell that phase a hard limit?

Lord of Change: when using DD for casting, i.e. a 2 and a 4, does the Mastery of Magic ability allow you to change the 2 to a 4? Or is "change" considered a modifier?

[Sumanye]

36 minutes ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

I have 2 rules question that came up during my first game:

Changecaster: Does the Fortune and Fate ability trigger on subsequent casts (or extra casts i.e. on Balewind) or is the wording for 1 extra spell that phase a hard limit?

Lord of Change: when using DD for casting, i.e. a 2 and a 4, does the Mastery of Magic ability allow you to change the 2 to a 4? Or is "change" considered a modifier?

1.) The condition on Fortune and Fate is casting a spell, once the condition is met, you can't do it again.  But, you can fail your first cast, succeed with your second cast from Balewind and then trigger Fortune and Fate.

 

2.) No, the dice change is not a modifier.  Modifiers are things like +1 to cast or -1 to cast.  So yes, if you spend a 2 and a 4 DD for a Lord of Change, the result will be 8 and cannot be modified.

[Deathtone_shade]

3 hours ago, Sumanye said:

1.) The condition on Fortune and Fate is casting a spell, once the condition is met, you can't do it again.  But, you can fail your first cast, succeed with your second cast from Balewind and then trigger Fortune and Fate.

 

2.) No, the dice change is not a modifier.  Modifiers are things like +1 to cast or -1 to cast.  So yes, if you spend a 2 and a 4 DD for a Lord of Change, the result will be 8 and cannot be modified.

The rule of the destiny dice is « count as unmodified rolls and cannot be rerolled or modified further » the modified further clearly means that even if you use a 2 and a 4 you’ll get a casting roll of 6 even with le lord of change

[Neffelo]

11 hours ago, LordPrometheus said:

It's not. People need to stop hyperventilating after two friggin weeks.

Yeah, a huge amount of "suggestions" in the cancon thread would dumpster the army, and really demonstrates that people can't make rash choices after an event.  Nearly all the suggestions are absolute trash. 

I am honestly not sure if GW is going to even make any major changes during the FAQ. Slaanesh dominated the scene for 7 months before any changes were made, and then it was only light touches to balance it, and it seems to have turned out well.

The only thing I forsee going is likely the DD+Battleshock no modifies and perhaps some clarification on the Tzaangor enlightened in battalions. I don't think we've ever seen a post-release FAQ change points costs, so the earliest we have to worry about that will be the summer faq. 

[Freejack02]

1 hour ago, Deathtone_shade said:

the modified further clearly means that even if you use a 2 and a 4 you’ll get a casting roll of 6 even with le lord of change

It "clearly" doesn't. 

 

44 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

The only thing I forsee going is likely the DD+Battleshock no modifies and perhaps some clarification on the Tzaangor enlightened in battalions. I don't think we've ever seen a post-release FAQ change points costs, so the earliest we have to worry about that will be the summer faq. 

I agree that the DD + Battleshock interaction will likely be changed, but I think Changehost will see some sort of nerf as well. Whether it's a points increase or a confirmation roll on the teleports, I don't think it's likely it'll get through unscathed. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Freejack02

[Sumanye]

1 hour ago, Deathtone_shade said:

The rule of the destiny dice is « count as unmodified rolls and cannot be rerolled or modified further » the modified further clearly means that even if you use a 2 and a 4 you’ll get a casting roll of 6 even with le lord of change

No it doesn’t.  Modifiers are like +1 and -1 to cast, as I wrote.

[RUNCMD]

Hey all,

Looking for some feedback / thoughts on a list I've made, not sure if it has been created already - far too many posts to go back thru:

Coven: Guild of Summoners

Kairos fateweaver

Gaunt Summoner on foot: General, Prophet of the Ostensible (mandatory CT), Brimstone familiar (mandatory artefact), spell = Glimpse the Future

Gaunt Summoner on foot: Artefact = Aspect of Tzeentch), Spell = Arcane suggestion

Tzaangor Shaman: Spell = Treacherous Bond

x20 Kairic Acolytes

x10 Kairic Acolytes

x 10 Kairic Acolytes

x 6 Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc

Witchfyre coven (battalion)

Balewind Vortex

2k points...

It is a 5 drop list, with bringing an extra 780 point on the table thru summoning, almost guaranteed (which could be done 1st turn)... The Gaunts should use their profane secrets ability more or less in turn 1 to get those pinks on the board asap (OR save at least 1 for turn 2 if you need to place them on an objective later especially coupled with the agenda that see's our models count as two for every single model if we steal the objective) with the first unit can either be chaff you run at the enemy to slow them down ..

You'll most likely rack up the 9 fate points you need easily even with the Gaunts using their profane ability first turn if you put one on the balewind. This will bring the LOC in and as he flys and is still quite fast and can become the needed bait / distraction needed to potentially throw your enemy off. Whilst we know that LOCs aren't always that hard hitting in melee, they can still deal some okay damage in shooting and are at least 14 wounds that your enemy has to deal with.  LOC can also be placed near the pinks to give them the nice neg to hit.

1 unit of kairics gets to shoot in the hero phase due to the battalion, now whilst there no real buffs to their shooting (due to taking the wrong coven), it can still be alright if the unit of 20 is in range, spesh with their spell going off on themselves.  They can also be used to hold objectives or cover ground in the back line if need be.

The Tzaangors are the hard hitting part of the army really and do what they have always done, especially being a bigger unit of 6 with the shaman following them.

if your LOC has died by turn 3, there is the potench for you to bring another LOC back with at 18 points, i mean it'll depend on a lot of things obvs like if your casters are still alive and your vsing an army that has casters as well, but it's not unachievable, and if it does go off, another nice thing that you enemy would have to deal with.

Kairos can auto dispel your balewind to be cast again if need be, also gaining the Gaunt on top a cheeky extra 3 inches of movement when he comes of. then recast and rack up more fate points.

the other thing I was thinking was using the same formula, but different coven that would benefit the arcanites further with buffs and then use the fate points to just summon screamers really to dart around the board/tie your opponent up as much as possible.

I'm not sold on spells, nor the additional artefact but I feel these are decent as is. All feedback, criticism or thoughts are welcome please as long as their constructive! But overall this becomes a nice Daemon/Arcanite mix in one! which I quite like.

 

[Craze]

4 hours ago, Freejack02 said:

I agree that the DD + Battleshock interaction will likely be changed, but I think Changehost will see some sort of nerf as well. Whether it's a points increase or a confirmation roll on the teleports, I don't think it's likely it'll get through unscathed. 

Am I the only one that would absolutely hate a change of the "unmodified" rule?

If this tome has a problem, it is the interaction of Flamers/Horrors/Conflagration/Duplicitous/Changehost, not the DD mechanic.

In my opinion for most of the armies considered "OP" it is exactly one subfaction that powers the whole army, e.g. Petrifex Elite, Hagg Narr, Gristlegore or Tyrants of Blood, to name a few. I fail to understand why in most of these cases GW decides to balance this with point increases, instead of trying to balance this one subfaction and by this weaken the whole army instead of the subfaction where it is required most (and only).

The same I would see in a fundamental change of the DD mechanic: OFC you would nerf the Changehost army, but you would also nerf Mortal builds by making DD rolls of 3 & 4 almost useless, which would help to protect your Acolyte blobs under the unmodified rule.

I really hope that GW will only touch the very problematic builds and not traits that affect EVERY armybuild, even ones considered fair Right now. In my opinion a change of Changehost to only teleport one unit per round would make a huge difference and would only hit the problematic builds, without harming anything else!

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

making DD rolls of 3 & 4 almost useless, which would help to protect your Acolyte blobs under the unmodified rule.

This type of reasoning I truly don’t understand. Need a guaranteed charge of 7 use a 3 and a 4. If you need a guaranteed hit and wound with a LoC use the 3 and a 4. Need a spell cast when your opponent can’t dispel use a 3 and a 4.

These are just a couple of examples. Destiny dice are incredibly powerful.  If they also should be able to be used to pass a 6+ save from an attack with -3 rend 6 wounds or auto pass a  battle shock it becomes really obnoxious fast.

Lastly Destiny Dice didn’t use to be unmodifed  prior to this new codex and they were still considered to be one of the strongest traits in the game even before.

[Craze]

I can understand your arguments, perhaps I have written it a little too drastic: Of course there are uses for 3s and 4s too.

My main point is:  Why nerf an armywide ability if there is only one very special thing (in this case Changehost) that is really over the top?

But couldn't DD in the 1st BT be used for ANY roll? Like for example making Fold Reality auto-succeed?

 

[NJohansson]

8 minutes ago, Craze said:

I can understand your arguments, perhaps I have written it a little too drastic: Of course there are uses for 3s and 4s too.

My main point is:  Why nerf an armywide ability if there is only one very special thing (in this case Changehost) that is really over the top?

But couldn't DD in the 1st BT be used for ANY roll? Like for example making Fold Reality auto-succeed?

 

Only Kairos special ability could be used to change any roll previously.  The problem with the current state is that it is not only changehost - host duplicity also becomes problematic with 20 pinks and auto pass of Battle Shock.

So for most purposes - I think that just clarifying in regards to battle Shock should fix most DD problems. Saying that - it’s just my humble opinion.

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

But couldn't DD in the 1st BT be used for ANY roll? Like for example making Fold Reality auto-succeed?

 

Not that I'm aware of - Fold R has always been a gamble.

Regarding changing DD: I agree 100% with you that GW should change those overpowered subfactions rather than points or DD. That said, I could live with them changing DD if they're also too strong. But they really need to get a proper balancing team going. It's annoying as FAQ (hur hur, see what I did there) to think about our last battletome where every 2 pages something had to be explained/changed/recosted/repurposed. Change's cool but it's not cool to bring 20 pages from different FAQs and erratas along with your battletome.

Edited January 29, 2020 by MitGas

[Craze]

It is exactly the same situation as in DoK with Hagg Narr. Instead of just changing the single rule which breaks Hagg Narr, they tinker with points, which impacts other builds too, because they lose power in the same amount as Hagg Narr, so people will still not play anything else...and I fear something similar will happen with DoT. 🙄

[MitGas]

1 hour ago, Craze said:

It is exactly the same situation as in DoK with Hagg Narr. Instead of just changing the single rule which breaks Hagg Narr, they tinker with points, which impacts other builds too, because they lose power in the same amount as Hagg Narr, so people will still not play anything else...and I fear something similar will happen with DoT. 🙄

I've got that sinking feeling too. I'm far from good enough to a balancing genius but I'm sure there are some people out there who could easily suggest the right changes that wouldn't nerf Tzeentch back to oblivion. I'd play T even if he was the worst but obviously it's nice to play a strong faction.

[Sumanye]

I think destiny dice for Battleshock immunity will likely be addressed in the FAQ, but not because of balance, but just because it was likely never intended in the first place.

[Dreadmund]

32 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

I think destiny dice for Battleshock immunity will likely be addressed in the FAQ, but not because of balance, but just because it was likely never intended in the first place.

At the Heat, which is held by GW at Warhammer World, it was ruled that DD do let you autopass Battleshock if I'm not mistaken. So it seems to be intended.

[Forrix]

My big issue with destiny dice being unmodifiable is that it feels very counter-intuitive and lame in practice. Its a design feature that gives you control over your dice rolls but instead lets you ignore rend or battleshock. It feels natural to use a DD to get a 1 on a unit of Pink Horrors to pass a battleshock and get some guys back. It feels weird to go "Okay so even if I roll a 6 the rest of the unit will flee. So instead of rolling I'm going to use a destiny dice to automatically get a 6 and thus pass my battleshock". Or "Okay, so you just hit and wounded my GS summoner with a -2 rend cannon ball. He has a 5+ save so I can't possibly pass a save roll. Cool, I'll just use a DD of 5 instead of rolling so he's fine". I can definitely see that irritating some players and wouldn't surprise me if that's were some of the NPE claims are coming from.

On the flipside, it feels stupid to use a LOC's command ability to get +1 to cast and then not be able to use two 3 DD to cast a spell that requires a 7. But you can use a 3 and a 4 because Mastery of Magic isn't technically a modifier. That's getting into an aside but it always feels janky explaining to someone that changing a dice roll isn't the same as modifying a dice roll.  

[Forrix]

16 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

At the Heat, which is held by GW at Warhammer World, it was ruled that DD do let you autopass Battleshock if I'm not mistaken. So it seems to be intended.

They were probably just going on RAW though I've never been to an official GW tournament. In practice, I feel like making judge calls based on RAI is a bad idea in a tournament.