AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mmimzie]

6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

The LoC can do this, this wasn't

I was of the opinion that the banshee endless spell eat faq also hits the LoC, but I guess they are worded differently.

 

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

buff Clanrats

The skaven list I've been running since the book came out have been double death frenzy  clan rats getting +1 attack rerolling 1s.  They hit very hard and can trade with gotrek. With bells hanging out in the swarm this one I play more causually but the list is great. 

 

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

incorrect, the old rules were used as the cut-off was missed by 1-day if I recall

Yeah just checked when I got home. Thanks for the correction.

[Maddpainting]

Clanrats are fine, they are stupidly cheap, can always ignore bravery with the right player, and are super dangerous.  Sure they are 40 for 200pts and Horrors are over 50 for 200pts. But horrors will never out damage Rats, Clanrats can also retreat and charge.  Personally i think Clanrats are better when giving all the buff each can have.

IMO Horrors only seem to good right now b.c the rest of the book can deal enough damage that the opponent can't focus down the Horrors.

[Sinfullyvannila]

10 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Then theres Horrors...whats everyones solutions to change them? Without them doing a complete warscroll overhaul i dont see them changing at all. Maybe points adjustments.

That’s a good question.

They’d probably have to go back to something like the old rules. For every 5 pinks you lose you get a unit of 10 blue Horrors in reserve that have generally the same limitations of our summoning rules except they don’t count against our once per turn summon max.

At least that puts all the headaches on the player who uses them.

[Dolomyte]

I like how the narrative is switching to “but but but at Cancon he had access to buffed life swarm” and willfully ignoring the GT qualifier at warhammer world where they went 1 2 3 easily. Also with no life swarm. 

[Murder Pancake]

All of this hullabaloo immediately after the new book comes out just makes me glad I have no investment in either Horrors or Flamers. Not looking forward to seeing the aftermath. Still discouraging though.

[Sumanye]

Well about whining, seems to me there is a lot more whining in this thread about NOT nerfing Tzeentch than there is about nerfing it.  

 

We all know it's going to get toned down.  The good news is, this book has tons of solid options and even after nerfs it's still going to be a great book.

 

[Sedraxis]

It's a shame. The mortal side of the tome is so well designed, but the daemon side of the rules... Oof! It's like they accidentally playtested it as a 40k army or something. It blows everything else out of the water.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sedraxis

[MattyP]

based on the nurgle subfaction teaser about the Wrath of the Everchosen book coming out, i'll bet there are/is Tzeentch subfactions in there too. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Dolomyte said:

I like how the narrative is switching to “but but but at Cancon he had access to buffed life swarm” and willfully ignoring the GT qualifier at warhammer world where they went 1 2 3 easily. Also with no life swarm. 

One person brought up the GT qualifier and then we had a small tangential discussion where the consensus seems to be that the lifeswarm is worth bringing regardless of realm. That’s hardly changing a narrative.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Gwendar]

8 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

You need to spend your destiny dice on them every turn to keep them from running away.

8 hours ago, Nagash42 said:

yeah without destiny dice killing pinks isn't hard unless the pinks get really lucky with bravery tests. 

You should also remember that Inspiring Presence is a thing. It won't return Pinks to the unit, but it will keep what you have from running.

 

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

The skaven list I've been running since the book came out have been double death frenzy  clan rats getting +1 attack rerolling 1s.  They hit very hard and can trade with gotrek. With bells hanging out in the swarm this one I play more causually but the list is great. 

2 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

Clanrats are fine, they are stupidly cheap, can always ignore bravery with the right player, and are super dangerous.  Sure they are 40 for 200pts and Horrors are over 50 for 200pts. But horrors will never out damage Rats, Clanrats can also retreat and charge.  Personally i think Clanrats are better when giving all the buff each can have.

IMO Horrors only seem to good right now b.c the rest of the book can deal enough damage that the opponent can't focus down the Horrors.

I'm the only Skaven player in my area, so in that regard I'm biased. For the tournament scene, they've not had any obscene win-rates (especially since the WLV range decrease) and I've not personally seen any of these buffed Clanrat lists doing well in any major tourney on average. What you do see is lots of Monks and Fiends. The retreat + charge and screening ability for the actual heavy hitters is where they shine; they excel at taking objectives right from under people with their 14" movement on a run of 6. 40 Clanrats with spears (so you can actually get all 40 into combat) are only going to do ~15 damage vs. a 4+ save and that's assuming they're at 4 (RR 1's)\3\-0\1 and have the extra attack. The only way you're getting this higher is if you use the Clawlord on Brood Horror as it's CA is currently worded to allow this +1 attacks to be stacked. Swords are obviously going to be better, but you aren't getting 40 in.

I've used Verminous lists and it just never shook out without Stormvermin which are grossly overcosted. I don't think this needs to be a question of damage.. save-wise they're nearly equal and bottom line is that Horrors can be returned and Clanrats cannot; a war of attrition is not something Clanrats will win against them (and you should account for the -1 to hit, meaning those 80 spear attacks go right back to a 5+ to hit). If you're down to Brims, Fold Reality and even a d3 Lifeswarm have the potential to add back quite a lot of wounds with no effort.

That all said, these are 2 completely different units in 2 completely different armies and points are costed the way they are accordingly. I find it hard to compare things in a vacuum.

[Magnus The Blue]

56 minutes ago, MattyP said:

based on the nurgle subfaction teaser about the Wrath of the Everchosen book coming out, i'll bet there are/is Tzeentch subfactions in there too. 

Where did you find this?  I see nothing on warhammer community.

[Maddpainting]

15 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

You should also remember that Inspiring Presence is a thing. It won't return Pinks to the unit, but it will keep what you have from running.

 

I'm the only Skaven player in my area, so in that regard I'm biased. For the tournament scene, they've not had any obscene win-rates (especially since the WLV range decrease) and I've not personally seen any of these buffed Clanrat lists doing well in any major tourney on average. What you do see is lots of Monks and Fiends. The retreat + charge and screening ability for the actual heavy hitters is where they shine; they excel at taking objectives right from under people with their 14" movement on a run of 6. 40 Clanrats with spears (so you can actually get all 40 into combat) are only going to do ~15 damage vs. a 4+ save and that's assuming they're at 4 (RR 1's)\3\-0\1 and have the extra attack. The only way you're getting this higher is if you use the Clawlord on Brood Horror as it's CA is currently worded to allow this +1 attacks to be stacked. Swords are obviously going to be better, but you aren't getting 40 in.

I've used Verminous lists and it just never shook out without Stormvermin which are grossly overcosted. I don't think this needs to be a question of damage.. save-wise they're nearly equal and bottom line is that Horrors can be returned and Clanrats cannot; a war of attrition is not something Clanrats will win against them (and you should account for the -1 to hit, meaning those 80 spear attacks go right back to a 5+ to hit). If you're down to Brims, Fold Reality and even a d3 Lifeswarm have the potential to add back quite a lot of wounds with no effort.

That all said, these are 2 completely different units in 2 completely different armies and points are costed the way they are accordingly. I find it hard to compare things in a vacuum.

I'm not really talking about casting lots of spells, i mean just basic rule book buffs(for having more rats) or just near a hero.

Clanrats are so cheap you are willing to throw them away, but they also can hit back b.c of the +1hit/wound, so you get the best of both worlds. Then if you choose to use spells on them (normally on plague monks or something else) its more meaningful for damage. Yes Horrors will out live, but rats will out damage.

Now i'm also biased as i play mostly BoC and Ungors are just straight up worst than both for the same price. But having faced Clanrats and Horrors, clanrats scare me more lol. It also might be b.c one of the best players in my area plays them and i haven't seen him make a mistake with skaven in a long time and the DoT players are not to his level. So there is that too.

[MGeffro]

7 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Where did you find this?  I see nothing on warhammer community.

 

[MattyP]

7 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Where did you find this?  I see nothing on warhammer community.

This is from the Facebook page for warhammer age of sigmar....excerpt from the upcoming book.

[Maddpainting]

He is saying that he is assuming Tzeentch will get something too.

I am sure Tzeentch will, but maybe not in the book, for sure in a future book. I'm mostly sure i heard them say they are going to be doing a series of book for optional rules for factions. But i can't find that now, did anyone else see that or did i imagine it?

[Gwendar]

8 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

I'm not really talking about casting lots of spells, i mean just basic rule book buffs(for having more rats) or just near a hero.

Clanrats are so cheap you are willing to throw them away, but they also can hit back b.c of the +1hit/wound, so you get the best of both worlds. Then if you choose to use spells on them (normally on plague monks or something else) its more meaningful for damage. Yes Horrors will out live, but rats will out damage.

Now i'm also biased as i play mostly BoC and Ungors are just straight up worst than both for the same price. But having faced Clanrats and Horrors, clanrats scare me more lol. It also might be b.c one of the best players in my area plays them and i haven't seen him make a mistake with skaven in a long time and the DoT players are not to his level. So there is that too.

I didn't mention anything about spells for Skaven. Yes you can Death Frenzy them as was mentioned and they can do some reasonable extra damage in that regard. I just find that 40 Monks for 80 more points are going to do that job better (as they also explode on 6's for a MW when they die on top of attacking again).

You're severely overestimating their to hit\wound bonuses. Those only come into play at 30+ and 20+ models and anyone with plink shooting is going to start removing them if they think you're going to buff them. I don't argue Clanrats will do less damage when you buff them with Death Frenzy or +1 attack; I just don't find it worth it in an army with plenty of better things to buff. To me, and most others, Clanrats are fast screens that can quite sneakily pull things into combat and retreat + charge to reform which is incredibly good.

Anyway, I won't go on about Skaven stuff in the Tzeentch thread. A lot of it is down to players, as you said.. but the only Clanrat heavy lists I've seen do decently was the ones running 160-200+ Clanrats that flood the board and get buffed as much as possible. I've just been saying that Horrors don't need anything to be decent at what they do well; hold objectives.

[Forrix]

12 hours ago, Malakithe said:

Then theres Horrors...whats everyones solutions to change them? Without them doing a complete warscroll overhaul i dont see them changing at all. Maybe points adjustments

I really don't think their warscroll needs to be changed much. There's enough similar stuff in other armies like the often quoted clanrats that if 50 wounds per 200 points was fundamentally broken then these units would be far more common on the competitive scene. Hell, Squigs are 48 wounds for 280 with 2 attacks at 3/4/-1/1 and they're generally considered bad.

That said, I think they are hyper efficient with resurrection abilities so I'd reduce their Icon to from d6 returned to d3. Fold reality might also need to be looked at. People tie it to Horrors but if Horrors are nerfed into uselessness I predict we'll hear people cry about resurrecting 6 flamers or screamers next. Maybe have it return d3 models and slay a model instead if you roll a 1 or a 2. 

I feel like a broken record at this point but I think the balance issues are a combination of some strong warscrolls/sub-factions/changehost. If you nerf all of them simultaneously you wind up with a bottom tier unit. Unfortunately, the YouTuber crowd in particular seems to have such a strong hate ****** for this battletome I don't think they'll be content until Horrors and Flamers are gone from the competitive scene altogether.  Someone on Twitter pointed out that just this year FEC and Slaanesh had higher win rates at their initial tournaments. Hell, Daughters of Khaine had a 71% going back to June 2019 (I remember them having 77% months after their release but Honest Wargamer stats don't go back that for on their site). I get that this battletome is over the top and it sucks to see stuff like this released but its hardly unique. To single out DOT as a unique failing on GW's part is disingenuous to the extreme. 

[whispersofblood]

If you could never return models that had "split" I think that would be a good start. Via the fluff, technically the horror isn't slain it, devolves. That would probably solve the most offensive components of Horrors. The 3 shots each is a bit surprising still though. 

Second I think fate points should have only be generated by heroes, but I doubt that gets changed.

Flamers could probably due with having fewer to hit buffs, and range dropped to 14"-12".

[Maddpainting]

Yeah, the only change i would make would be, you can only bring back models that are still in the unit, so if you have 1 pink you can brig pink back, if you had 0 pink then you can not bring any pick back, same for blues.

[LordPrometheus]

33 minutes ago, Forrix said:

I get that this battletome is over the top 

It's not. People need to stop hyperventilating after two friggin weeks.

[Martijn de Bruin]

Reasonable to expect faq/errata this weekend? It's been over 2 weeks since release.

[MattyP]

From the new Wrath of Everchosen book....looks like new stuff for tzeentch under allegiance abilities....Unbound flux and cult of 1000 eyes are tzeentch cults/factions.  Cool cool 

 

[Xyxel]

2 hours ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

Reasonable to expect faq/errata this weekend? It's been over 2 weeks since release.

From the sales point of view no, no reason for that. Maybe in 3-4 months if DoT will be really a top tier above other new Armybooks (new sales).
Seraphons and Lumineth will be a hard counter to DoT, others will adapt.

[Maddpainting]

They will have one within the next 2-3 weeks, they always do. Will it have major changes? Maybe, maybe not, but the FAQ will be out.

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

12 hours ago, Nagash42 said:

 

You should also remember that Inspiring Presence is a thing. It won't return Pinks to the unit, but it will keep what you have from running.

Changehost and any other list with Lord of Change uses his command ability every turn.

This is from my personal experience with running new Horrors and using DD and inspiring presence on them. I have no idea how that top tier tournament player couldn’t pressure the Tzeentch player enough to deplete his destiny dice by the end of the game.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila