Sumanye Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 I don't think you can summon Kairos and my reasoning would be the following... The Guild of Summoners rule does not provide an alternate way to bring a model on the table e.g. "reduce fate points by 9 and place 1 Lord of Change unit within 9" of a hero". The rule says "summon" and even notes that the cost is not 30, but instead 9/18/30, so this is summoning we are dealing with and not an alternate method. Since Kairos is not on the summon table, you cannot summon him. It is weird it lists the keyword instead of the title, but that is not the only instance in this book of weird title/keyword choices (for example, Tzaangor Coven). I'll submit the question for the FAQ, but I honestly don't see a case for summoning him RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Sumanye said: I don't think you can summon Kairos and my reasoning would be the following... The Guild of Summoners rule does not provide an alternate way to bring a model on the table e.g. "reduce fate points by 9 and place 1 Lord of Change unit within 9" of a hero". The rule says "summon" and even notes that the cost is not 30, but instead 9/18/30, so this is summoning we are dealing with and not an alternate method. Since Kairos is not on the summon table, you cannot summon him. It is weird it lists the keyword instead of the title, but that is not the only instance in this book of weird title/keyword choices (for example, Tzaangor Coven). I'll submit the question for the FAQ, but I honestly don't see a case for summoning him RAW. RAW you most certainly can: Compare to the regular summoning text where it is said “Lord of Change”. Kairos is not a Lord of Change but he most certainly has the LORD OF CHANGE key word. very nice catch mmimzie - I missed it completely and will definitely try this. Edited January 25, 2020 by NJohansson 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 15 minutes ago, NJohansson said: RAW you most certainly can: Compare to the regular summoning text where it is said “Lord of Change”. Kairos is not a Lord of Change but he most certainly has the LORD OF CHANGE key word. very nice catch mmimzie - I missed it completely and will definitely try this. If you read the allegiance ability on summoning, it clearly explains that you can only summon units from the table, which does not include Kairos. There is nothing in the Guild of Summoners rules that modifies the summoning table and thus you can not summon Kairos RAW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, newsun said: Looking at multitudinous summoners. Looking for thoughts and suggested changes. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Guild of SummonersChangecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)The Blue Scribes (120)Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)Magister (100)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)Multitudinous Host (160)Balewind Vortex (40)Burning Sigil of Tzeentch (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 105 Wow thats a potential grind house Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 The relevant quote does not refer to the summoning table it simply states that in Guild you can only summon LORD OF CHANGE units. It then provides the actual cost of said units. I don’t see how it could be more clearer from a RAW perspective. I will not mind if they change it in FAQ, but for now it is unusual but clear. They have changed the wording from Lord of Change to LORD OF CHANGE, either on purpose or by typo - but RAW, it is a difference to the regular summoning table. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 Cleaned up my Summoners list. Added spells and such. The first LoC to come in will get either Treason of Tzeentch or Unchecked Mutation for their lore spells. The Ogroid will be a sort of bodyguard for Kairos so Kairos can use the Ogroids spell to heal himself. The Orgroid then pumps himself up to punch people in the face. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Guild of SummonersKairos Fateweaver (400)- Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumGaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar- Lore of Fate: Arcane SuggestionGaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondThe Blue Scribes (120)- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Balewind Vortex (40)Umbral Spellportal (70)Total: 1990 / 2000Wounds: 107 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, newsun said: Looking at multitudinous summoners. Looking for thoughts and suggested changes. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Guild of SummonersChangecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)The Blue Scribes (120)Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)Magister (100)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)10 x Blue Horrors of Tzeentch (100)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)Multitudinous Host (160)Balewind Vortex (40)Burning Sigil of Tzeentch (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 105 I would swap in the Changeling- it has two spells and fantastic synergy with Horrors - probably would ditch the Magister in its stead and swap both endless for Geminids. Potential for -3/-4 (with spells) to be hit in melee is devastating. But that is just my humble opinion. Oh and I would probably die from boredom building and painting the amount of Horrors needed for this list:):):) Fantastic if you actually manage to build such an army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 22 minutes ago, NJohansson said: The relevant quote does not refer to the summoning table it simply states that in Guild you can only summon LORD OF CHANGE units. It then provides the actual cost of said units. I don’t see how it could be more clearer from a RAW perspective. I will not mind if they change it in FAQ, but for now it is unusual but clear. They have changed the wording from Lord of Change to LORD OF CHANGE, either on purpose or by typo - but RAW, it is a difference to the regular summoning table. Summoning means taking a model off the summoning table, that is explained in the allegiance ability. There is no general “summon” rule in AoS, you have to go by the allegiance ability that lets you summon, and there is only one unit on the table that has the Lord of Change keyword. It even calls out the entry on the table by saying “instead of a Fate Point cost of 30 points”. I agree it’s very clear RAW, just not in the way you do I guess. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeneralZero Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 3 hours ago, NJohansson said: RAW you most certainly can: Compare to the regular summoning text where it is said “Lord of Change”. Kairos is not a Lord of Change but he most certainly has the LORD OF CHANGE key word. very nice catch mmimzie - I missed it completely and will definitely try this. Good catch in deed. But Kairos being a named character, be aware that you can only have one one the battlefield... That is interesting because If you start with a LoC (in place of kairos) you loose one spelll but you gain a nice CA and the possibility to put some relic & co on the LoC...I'll think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJohansson Posted January 25, 2020 Share Posted January 25, 2020 13 hours ago, Malakithe said: Cleaned up my Summoners list. Added spells and such. The first LoC to come in will get either Treason of Tzeentch or Unchecked Mutation for their lore spells. The Ogroid will be a sort of bodyguard for Kairos so Kairos can use the Ogroids spell to heal himself. The Orgroid then pumps himself up to punch people in the face. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Guild of SummonersKairos Fateweaver (400)- Lore of Change: Bolt of TzeentchOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumGaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar- Lore of Fate: Arcane SuggestionGaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)- General- Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondThe Blue Scribes (120)- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Balewind Vortex (40)Umbral Spellportal (70)Total: 1990 / 2000Wounds: 107 Can’t really criticize- most looks solid. If anything, the amount of Acolyts you bring really feels more for the Pyrofane Cult (to get the most from them). I would drop 20 - 40 to get more casters/endless spells in Guild or switch coven to get the most out of the acolytes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 13 hours ago, NJohansson said: Can’t really criticize- most looks solid. If anything, the amount of Acolyts you bring really feels more for the Pyrofane Cult (to get the most from them). I would drop 20 - 40 to get more casters/endless spells in Guild or switch coven to get the most out of the acolytes. I thought about that too. But without a screen of bodies you open yourself up to alpha melee lists who would just roll through the casters. The Acolytes shooting is more of a supplement and screen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phasteon Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) A friend of mine just showed me this list: Gaunt Summoner Gaunt Summoner Gaunt Summoner 20 Pinks 20 Pinks 20 Pinks Screamers (because 80 points leftover) 474 wounds on the table. I think most armies have between 120-150 wounds on the table. Being able to field 300% the wounds of other armies is probably not very fun to play against, just frustrating even if those horrors wont hurt ******. They just try to hold the objectives for 2-3 turns in a row and thats game then. Edited January 26, 2020 by Phasteon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 So, what do we think about the Cancon winning list? It seems.. odd? I could see this as a Hosts Duplicitous, but not as an Eternal Conflagration list: Spoiler Either way, congrats to him. I'd really like to see how it was played, but haven't seen if there's footage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddpainting Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 LVO, DoT flamer list just basically tabled an OBR unit turn 2 just now. Might be able to watch on twitch later. Just caught the tail end from a friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 44 minutes ago, Phasteon said: A friend of mine just showed me this list: Gaunt Summoner Gaunt Summoner Gaunt Summoner 20 Pinks 20 Pinks 20 Pinks Screamers (because 80 points leftover) 474 wounds on the table. I think most armies have between 120-150 wounds on the table. Being able to field 300% the wounds of other armies is probably not very fun to play against, just frustrating even if those horrors wont hurt ******. They just try to hold the objectives for 2-3 turns in a row and thats game then. Use that with Eternal Conflag and those Horrors will melt stuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 38 minutes ago, Gwendar said: So, what do we think about the Cancon winning list? It seems.. odd? I could see this as a Hosts Duplicitous, but not as an Eternal Conflagration list: Reveal hidden contents Either way, congrats to him. I'd really like to see how it was played, but haven't seen if there's footage. Yeah thats strange...and Fold on the Scribes? Also a strange choice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryMou3e Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 On 1/25/2020 at 9:27 AM, GeneralZero said: Good catch in deed. But Kairos being a named character, be aware that you can only have one one the battlefield... That is interesting because If you start with a LoC (in place of kairos) you loose one spelll but you gain a nice CA and the possibility to put some relic & co on the LoC...I'll think about it. The guild of summoners rules ultimately refer to summoning a lord of change from the fate point table. This to me is normal lord of changes only and not kairos/exalted greater demon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angrycontra Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Here's something that has been bothering me lately: can spellcasters cast spells even if there are no eligible targets for it? As far as I know, no rules directly prevent this and many spells have wording "if successful pick enemy blaa" meaning that you wouldn't necessarily need any targets before casting the spell. Tzeentch needs to cast spells to get those fate points and most spells require target so it would be nice if you could cast spells on ground basically just for the points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, angrycontra said: Here's something that has been bothering me lately: can spellcasters cast spells even if there are no eligible targets for it? As far as I know, no rules directly prevent this and many spells have wording "if successful pick enemy blaa" meaning that you wouldn't necessarily need any targets before casting the spell. Tzeentch needs to cast spells to get those fate points and most spells require target so it would be nice if you could cast spells on ground basically just for the points. Correct, you do not need a target unless it specifically states which.. I don't think any do. The stipulation for Fate points is that a spell is successful, and that happens before you choose a target. Edited January 26, 2020 by Gwendar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newsun Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 1 hour ago, CountryMou3e said: The guild of summoners rules ultimately refer to summoning a lord of change from the fate point table. This to me is normal lord of changes only and not kairos/exalted greater demon If guild stated Lord of Change instead of LORD OF CHANGE, then you'd be correct. It does not so it's any with that keyword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryMou3e Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 49 minutes ago, newsun said: If guild stated Lord of Change instead of LORD OF CHANGE, then you'd be correct. It does not so it's any with that keyword. I guess we will see right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 3 hours ago, Malakithe said: Yeah thats strange...and Fold on the Scribes? Also a strange choice Well, someone linked the stream on FB but I haven't watched it yet as I've been out playing. Probably will later on.. apparently the Horrors did a lot of work, which was surprising. https://m.twitch.tv/videos/541994876 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 The warhammer world stream top table match yesterday ended when the player conceded against tzeentch. the army is incredibly unfun to play against with changehost as is 95% of armies dont have a chance.. The whole of twitter is melting down over it. Which is why I once again say never let unfaq'd armies in tournaments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountryMou3e Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Dolomyte said: The warhammer world stream top table match yesterday ended when the player conceded against tzeentch. the army is incredibly unfun to play against with changehost as is 95% of armies dont have a chance.. The whole of twitter is melting down over it. Which is why I once again say never let unfaq'd armies in tournaments. I'm sorry but a shooty tzeentch changehost is a hard counter to a melee orientated ELITE OBR army. Just an unfortunate matchup to be honest. Everyone keeps batting around that it needs FAQing.... what needs FAQing ? The rules are crystal clear Edited January 26, 2020 by CountryMou3e 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted January 26, 2020 Share Posted January 26, 2020 Changehost is broken? its dominant against every army. Hey im gonna drop 100 wounds of horrors which are minus 1 to hit in melee into your army, I have an assured charge due to fate dice, and the army is single drop so I always go first. Have fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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