AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[AverageBoss]

1 hour ago, Jestador said:

Greetings! my local store is starting an escalation league next month and I've decided my time for Tzeentch has come.

 

My basic question is with 2x SC, some tzangors and enlightened what would be a good start for 1k so I could learn and then upgrade to the 1500 and then 2000 point?

You will want 4 boxes of Blue and Brimstone horrors for your pinks, and a Tzaangor Shaman for your enlightened. You will want another arcanite wizard to tag along with your foot Tzaangors. As a cheap expansion option (and if you like the models) you might also consider the StD SC box, as all those units can be marked Tzeentch and used in the army.

[Jestador]

2 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

You will want 4 boxes of Blue and Brimstone horrors for your pinks, and a Tzaangor Shaman for your enlightened. You will want another arcanite wizard to tag along with your foot Tzaangors. As a cheap expansion option (and if you like the models) you might also consider the StD SC box, as all those units can be marked Tzeentch and used in the army.

got the 2 boxes of blues they had i already plan on getting more and more pinks

also i have a ton of StD from my time in WHFB any in paticular youd reccomend?

[papagumdrop]

7 hours ago, Sumanye said:

I think it really depends on the battle plan which is going to be better.  On battle plans where you need to spread out, that -1 to hit bubble doesn't do much even if your opponent brings range and host duplicitous ability to deny withdraw from combat is potentially huge.  

My first impression is (still experimenting with this book like everyone else), the better you are at this game, the better host duplicitous looks over eternal conflagration.  You can make up for -1 to hit against your heroes or at least mitigate against needing it with smarter play, but you cannot make up for an ability that lets you totally lock your opponent down with horrors and deny them objectives.  That ability just seems crazy strong if played well.

I concur, Host Duplicitous is gross even if played averagely. I am far from very good and it has served me well so far. I have only played two games with host duplicitous, one against a Nighthaunt Dolorous Guard list one against an Idoneth Deepkin eel list. In both the horror units locked down the objectives, and the ability to pin the units in place meant they were not going anywhwere! It was particularly damning against the Dolorus Guard list as it denied his Hexwraiths multiple use of their flyover ability. I made sure I protected my characters and that -1 to hit aura did the rest. Only one unit of 10 Pinks was completely wiped out across both of these games and he had to damn near pour 3/4 of his army into them to do it. 

For those that think Puckish Misdirection has been nerfed I would like to respectfully object. Sure we can't force the opponent to waste a turn moving a character to reveal him or possibly get off a cheeky purple sun in the backfield. But in exchange we get a guaranteed, can't be dispelled -2 to hit buff on whatever unit he is near!!!!! In my two games it was disgusting and potentially friendship ending. I got off geminds on the unit attacking the objective he and his 10 pinks were guarding and that unit of eels was -3 to hit. Add in you can take the -1 to hit spell and you could potentially make a unit -4 to hit the pinks the Changeling is escorting. I do like the Tome of Eyes for him as many people in this thread have suggested, but if your LOC is within 18" of those Geminids, just have him eat them and then have the Changeling recast them each turn. Unless I am wrong about that sequencing, I believe the LOC ability is played directly at the start of the hero phase.

Pretty sure the no retreat ability will be nerfed in some fashion. Also on the Nerf topic I also played both games not using fate dice as unmodified for battleshock rolls as I am certain that will be fixed.

Edited January 21, 2020 by papagumdrop

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Greetings! my local store is starting an escalation league next month and I've decided my time for Tzeentch has come.

 

My basic question is with 2x SC, some tzangors and enlightened what would be a good start for 1k so I could learn and then upgrade to the 1500 and then 2000 point?

Well, as you already have a "horizontal" army (read: no big/tall ones), I think that a LoC is too good to pass 😎. (I have one and I almost certain that I'll get one more in the near future, to get kairos & LoC)

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

Okay, so does the mastery of magic ability on the lord of changes warscroll count as modifying the roll?

i was playing against khorne for the first time and rolls a 6 and 2, and I changed it too a 12 and the player I was facing told me that hexgorgers still activate. I’m unsure if this is how it works, as most modifiers are pluses or division and all that Jazz. I’m very confused right now lol

[Lord Krungharr]

Has anyone tried a Beasts of Chaos Phantasmagoria of Fate with the new Tzeentch tome?   I don’t have the book yet  but  I see a Fatemaster can make dudes reroll hits now wholly within 9”.   That would make up for not so many attacks on my greataxe bullgors.   I have run them in Brass Despoilers with mixed results but improving.   But with my other beasts units now I can run all the god battalions.  Tzeentch is my favorite after Khorne.  

[Lord Krungharr]

3 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Okay, so does the mastery of magic ability on the lord of changes warscroll count as modifying the roll?

i was playing against khorne for the first time and rolls a 6 and 2, and I changed it too a 12 and the player I was facing told me that hexgorgers still activate. I’m unsure if this is how it works, as most modifiers are pluses or division and all that Jazz. I’m very confused right now lol

I had a similar thing happen but with destiny dice on a battleshock test.  He used a destiny dice for it , and said that some people say adding the models that died to the destiny dice roll is a modifier but destiny dice cannot be modified.  So one wouldn’t add the dead models to the battleshock result if a destiny die is used.   Which means most units can’t fail that way. 

 

I guess GW should clarify on both of those.  My initial thought is modifiers are additions or subtractions or multiplications or divisions of the dice rolled.   Any switching of the dice without the mathematical methods is not a modification as modifiers are only described as the mathematical methods in the rules.  But I could be swayed without fuss.   I’m hungry.  

[Hebroseph]

I think people are getting two different things construed and that is causing the problems. The passage in the Destiny dice states that changed dice are "considered to be Unmodified" AND "these dice results can not be modified further". 

So the battleshock and hexgorgers and LoC mastery of magic ect questions are mixing the two statements.  For battleshock, before you roll, you can choose a destiny dice, so say you pick a 2. That doesnt have anything to do with the considered to be unmodified, but everything to do with the can not be modified further. 

Modifiers are positive and negative effects that happen AFTER rerolls. Destiny dice are in-lieu of rolling, so for LoC ability, instead of rolling 2 dice for a spell, rerolling if applicable. Masters of Magic is an ABILITY that takes place after rolling, but before rerolls and modifiers. So you pick two dice, you then match the two dice, then reroll if applicable and then apply modifiers. That being said, if you pick a 3 and a 2, and you change the die to 3 and 3, and you need a 7 to pass, the +1 to cast from the LoC ability will not take effect because of the second part, "can not be modified further"

I know this is kinda rambling and not directed at anybody, I just see a lot of confusion about how destiny dice interact with different things and its mostly just a misunderstanding of how the step by step process works. 

[Lord Krungharr]

Well for the battleshock roll I am grossly mistaken as the rules clearly spell out that the number of dead make it a modified roll.   Color me out of space on that one.    Guess it actually helps to read once in a while 🤓

I hope it gets FAQd otherwise on that one as it would help to get rid of all those horrors faster!  Unless reality blinks of course.  

[Hebroseph]

I don't think using battleshock as a primary way to remove horrors to be very viable. Even if they FAQ the destiny dice to not ignore negative modifiers they can still just ignore battleshock for a command point. DoT has incentive to keep heros close to their units to provide -1 to hit bubble, so they will also conveniently be able to issue battleshock immunity. 

At the end of the day, they are just a 50 man unit of clan rats, and you handle them like you do any other horde unit. overwhelming firepower. 

[simakover]

8 hours ago, papagumdrop said:

I concur, Host Duplicitous is gross even if played averagely. I am far from very good and it has served me well so far. I have only played two games with host duplicitous, one against a Nighthaunt Dolorous Guard list one against an Idoneth Deepkin eel list. In both the horror units locked down the objectives, and the ability to pin the units in place meant they were not going anywhwere! It was particularly damning against the Dolorus Guard list as it denied his Hexwraiths multiple use of their flyover ability. I made sure I protected my characters and that -1 to hit aura did the rest. Only one unit of 10 Pinks was completely wiped out across both of these games and he had to damn near pour 3/4 of his army into them to do it. 

For those that think Puckish Misdirection has been nerfed I would like to respectfully object. Sure we can't force the opponent to waste a turn moving a character to reveal him or possibly get off a cheeky purple sun in the backfield. But in exchange we get a guaranteed, can't be dispelled -2 to hit buff on whatever unit he is near!!!!! In my two games it was disgusting and potentially friendship ending. I got off geminds on the unit attacking the objective he and his 10 pinks were guarding and that unit of eels was -3 to hit. Add in you can take the -1 to hit spell and you could potentially make a unit -4 to hit the pinks the Changeling is escorting. I do like the Tome of Eyes for him as many people in this thread have suggested, but if your LOC is within 18" of those Geminids, just have him eat them and then have the Changeling recast them each turn. Unless I am wrong about that sequencing, I believe the LOC ability is played directly at the start of the hero phase.

Pretty sure the no retreat ability will be nerfed in some fashion. Also on the Nerf topic I also played both games not using fate dice as unmodified for battleshock rolls as I am certain that will be fixed.

how you use youre changelling? as standart 2/2 wizard or put him in OP deploy and moving him with big unit? then you decide cast spell with him?

and that special with Tome of Eyes? looks like mediocre endless

Edited January 22, 2020 by simakover

[Hebroseph]

It depends on what list you are running. The new changeling teleport states that at the end of the first movement phase, you can place him in the enemy "Territory" (not deployment zone, they are different).  This means in your hero phase, you can teleport two units of pinks, or a unit of pinks and flamers, or whatever you want to be right outside of 9" from the enemy. You can then in your movement phase, jump the changeling in to provide the Locus for -1 to hit. Unfortunately you will probably be outside of 9" to keep him safe, so it wont get the additional -1 from his ability till the next round. 

Personally, I run Pyrofane cult, and he walks up with a unit of 30 Acolytes. I bring Geminids and Tome of eyes. First turn he casts tome and then he waits till units are about to clash, and throws out geminids into the enemy. I try and get as many shooting chances as I can so I don't normally charge, but get within 9" so that I can bait the enemy into charging me with -2 to hit

At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter how you use him, at 120 points for a 2/2 caster with a -1(-2 potential) to hit is a steal. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Hebroseph

[simakover]

28 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

It depends on what list you are running. The new changeling teleport states that at the end of the first movement phase, you can place him in the enemy "Territory" (not deployment zone, they are different).  This means in your hero phase, you can teleport two units of pinks, or a unit of pinks and flamers, or whatever you want to be right outside of 9" from the enemy. You can then in your movement phase, jump the changeling in to provide the Locus for -1 to hit. Unfortunately you will probably be outside of 9" to keep him safe, so it wont get the additional -1 from his ability till the next round. 

Personally, I run Pyrofane cult, and he walks up with a unit of 30 Acolytes. I bring Geminids and Tome of eyes. First turn he casts tome and then he waits till units are about to clash, and throws out geminids into the enemy. I try and get as many shooting chances as I can so I don't normally charge, but get within 9" so that I can bait the enemy into charging me with -2 to hit

At the end of the day, it doesnt really matter how you use him, at 120 points for a 2/2 caster with a -1(-2 potential) to hit is a steal. 

but why tome? its not looks like good spell, thats the point to summon it? 

[Prometheo567]

Hi, I am just starting back on AoS so I need to get both my OBR and this army. Me and some friends plan to get this started with smallish 1000 points games and then scale up.

With the minis I have (and with a flamer changehost in mind) I was planning something like this:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

Units
1 x Burning Chariots of Tzeentch (150)

Total: 970 / 1000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 42

Opinions? Should I switch the Burning chariot to an foot Exalted Flamer and use the leftovers for something else? Maybe I could get some more pinks (got like 40 and 60 blue&brimstones) but it feels kinda dirty for 1k and I worry about the mobility (since at 1k I cannot get the changehost batallion teleport)

[Aelford]

I've been thinking about going for a melee Tzeentch army. Thoughts on the list?

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Great-Bray Shaman (100)
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- General
- Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Ungors (60)
10 x Ungors (60)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
30 x Bestigors (300)
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (540)
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)
 

[Naprapaten]

13 minutes ago, Aelford said:

I've been thinking about going for a melee Tzeentch army. Thoughts on the list?

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous
Mortal Realm: Shyish

Great-Bray Shaman (100)
Fatemaster (120)
- Artefact: Ethereal Amulet
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
- General
- Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
10 x Ungors (60)
10 x Ungors (60)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
30 x Bestigors (300)
9 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (540)
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)
 

You dont want ethereal on Fatemaster, the amulet negates his +2 against melee. Paradoxical is better.

[Aelford]

31 minutes ago, Naprapaten said:

You dont want ethereal on Fatemaster, the amulet negates his +2 against melee. Paradoxical is better.

Ah yes! Makes sense. Or maybe Gryph feather charm?

[MitGas]

3 hours ago, Naprapaten said:

You dont want ethereal on Fatemaster, the amulet negates his +2 against melee. Paradoxical is better.

Isn't it also that a 1 is always a fail? So giving him the paradoxical shield is not helping him in CC at all unless he goes up against another flyer? At least my opponent argued that in my very first game with DoT years ago.

[NJohansson]

5 hours ago, simakover said:

but why tome? its not looks like good spell, thats the point to summon it? 

This is puzzling me as well. Feels like there are many much better Endless Spells and even Arcane Bolt is a better spell than the one the tome let’s you cast.

[LordPrometheus]

1 minute ago, NJohansson said:

This is puzzling me as well. Feels like there are many much better Endless Spells and even Arcane Bolt is a better spell than the one the tome let’s you cast.

Re-rolling ALL casting rolls is very strong, and auto success if it's a double. That's the reason to run the Tome.

[AverageBoss]

24 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Isn't it also that a 1 is always a fail? So giving him the paradoxical shield is not helping him in CC at all unless he goes up against another flyer? At least my opponent argued that in my very first game with DoT years ago.

It protects against rend. With the setup he would have a 2+ against ranged, a 0+ against melee against most targets, and a 2+ in melee vs. Monsters and Flyers. You are forced to reroll 4+ in all instances though.

[Hannibal]

Bullgors or Varanguard?

Hi all, just wanted to get your opinion on wether to run Bullgors or Varanguard.

I want to field a rather low model count, somewhat elitish army that basically consists of Flamers, Exalted Flamers and either Bullgors (phantasmagoria of fate battalion) or Varanguard (maybe the Varanguard battalion, I´m not sure yet). Reasons are I love these models. Though I´m currently not able to decide wether to run Bullgors or Varanguard. That´s why I like to know your opinions here.

 

I´m leaning more towards Bullgors, but they do not really scale, meaning I´m not able to field Bullgors + battalion in smaller games. This has to be a 2000 pts list.

On the other hand, Varanguard offer Tzeentch keyword on their warscroll, meaning I can run them even in the smallest games.

Or should I get a unit of Varanguard for smaller games and build a 2000pts force based Bullgors?

So many decisions...

 

Any advice you like to share?

 

Thanks in advance

Edited January 22, 2020 by Hannibal

[NJohansson]

20 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Which is why the person who did run congflag had this list

This makes me sad to see. I really hope that it is just a faze and that more “regular” lists will be the norm. I am not saying that it is unbeatable (it definitely is) but this list can really destroy any form of positive playing experience (but it is a tournament so not judging). Feels more 40K than AoS though.
 

Anyhow with a list like this -1 rend is defiantly very strong. On the other hand -1 against shooting is probably more important if going against the same gunline:):):). 

 

[Spears]

16 minutes ago, Hannibal said:

I want to field a rather low model count, somewhat elitish army that basically consists of Flamers, Exalted Flamers and either Bullgors (phantasmagoria of fate battalion) or Varanguard (maybe the Varanguard battalion, I´m not sure yet).

Varanguard outside of std lose the option to take a circle, so generally they are fairly down on damage. The batallion isn't legal outside of slaves to darkness as you need host of the everchosen varanguard to build it.

Just go for whichever look coolest. 

[simakover]

50 minutes ago, LordPrometheus said:

Re-rolling ALL casting rolls is very strong, and auto success if it's a double. That's the reason to run the Tome.

but we have 2 other source of reroll - Scribes and duplicious aura. tome cost points, cost 1 cast and give weak spell but reroll. double 1 and double 6 is not that great im think