AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[mystycalchemy]

16 minutes ago, Neffelo said:

You can, this has been pointed out multiple times, and is even on page 121 with pictures of the relevant rules on why it's possible. 

Hm, well if true that's certainly odd, there's no reason why they'd have to specify Enlightened on Discs of Tzeentch for Skyshoal Coven then. I'll take note of that ruling, but i'll keep playing with them on foot until we get an FAQ to confirm.

[Neffelo]

6 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

Hm, well if true that's certainly odd, there's no reason why they'd have to specify Enlightened on Discs of Tzeentch for Skyshoal Coven then. I'll take note of that ruling, but i'll keep playing with them on foot until we get an FAQ to confirm.

Well, it would make sense for skyshoal coven since you are flying over enemies, so they specify that it has to be the ones on discs.

That being said, they may FAQ one of the other battalions to be only foot enlightened, which would suck.  If they don't put any mention of it in the FAQ we are good to go. 

[Sumanye]

7 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

Hm, well if true that's certainly odd, there's no reason why they'd have to specify Enlightened on Discs of Tzeentch for Skyshoal Coven then. I'll take note of that ruling, but i'll keep playing with them on foot until we get an FAQ to confirm.

Yes there is.  If it says Tzaangor Enlightened, you can take foot or discs.  If it says Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs, then you can only take discs.  Skyshoal is more restrictive on purpose.  I wouldn’t expect a FAQ, it’s in the core rules.

[mystycalchemy]

1 minute ago, Sumanye said:

Yes there is.  If it says Tzaangor Enlightened, you can take foot or discs.  If it says Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs, then you can only take discs.  Skyshoal is more restrictive on purpose.  I wouldn’t expect a FAQ, it’s in the core rules.

It just seems odd that they wouldnt use a perfectly functioning keyword system. Having the requirement as TZAANGOR ENLIGHTENED would have made it much clearer.

[Sumanye]

44 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

It just seems odd that they wouldnt use a perfectly functioning keyword system. Having the requirement as TZAANGOR ENLIGHTENED would have made it much clearer.

Could be future proofing?  For example, a new hero could be added with TZAANGOR ENLIGHTENED keyword and that hero would not be allowed in these battalions.  But ultimately, who knows

[AverageBoss]

3 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

It just seems odd that they wouldnt use a perfectly functioning keyword system. Having the requirement as TZAANGOR ENLIGHTENED would have made it much clearer.

The same thing has been done in multiple Stormcast tomes (including the current), the Nighthaunt tome, and I am more than certain elsewhere.

[Hebroseph]

7 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

So I'm very interested in playing Pyrofane Cult, Kairics are some of my fav models in the Tzeentch line. So what would an "ideal" pyrofane list look like? I've got this right now:

Allegiance: Tzeentch
Changecult: Pyrofane

Leaders:
Lord of Change (380) (General)
 - Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
 - Chainfire Amulet
 - Spell TBD

Magister on Disc (140)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
Curseling (160)

Units:
5x10 Kairic Acolytes (500)
1x6 Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
1x3 Tzaangor Enlightened on Discs (180)

Endless Spells:
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

 Probably not optimal, but it's what I've come up with so far. The Curseling was originally an Ogroid Thaumaturge with Paradoxical Shield if I could fit a battalion in.

If you have the models, i'd trade the curseling for changling + tome of eyes. Same cost, better hero

[mystycalchemy]

9 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

If you have the models, i'd trade the curseling for changling + tome of eyes. Same cost, better hero

That's a good point, I only have like 30% of these models so that's an easy swap. Is the infiltration ability of changeling used or do we just ignore that now?

 

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

I got two questions for y’all after reading the book for a little bit

first one: if I choose to arm a lord of change with a baleful sword or a rod of sorcery, I can’t use wicked talons and a curved beak right? This seems weird only because the bird doesn’t lose its beak and talons, so why does it restrict itself in combat lol.

from a balance perspective this makes sense tho, I just thought it was a weird description due to the weapons still existing on the model 

 

second one: if multiple vulcharcs are in range of a wizard, do I roll once or once for every bird? The wording makes me think I roll once no matter the units in range but wanted to check 

 

[Hebroseph]

8 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

That's a good point, I only have like 30% of these models so that's an easy swap. Is the infiltration ability of changeling used or do we just ignore that now?

 

It depends on the list you are running him in. In Pyrofane cult, you ignore the infiltration move, and stay buried in your acolyte unit to give them protection. In change host, you teleport to where your unit is going to get changehost swapped so you can provide the -1 to hit locus. 

[iogaa]

44 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

first one: if I choose to arm a lord of change with a baleful sword or a rod of sorcery, I can’t use wicked talons and a curved beak right?

Yes, that's right. I guess he still has them but doesn't have the time/concentration to use them.

"A Lord of Change is a single model armed with one of the following weapon options: Staff of Tzeentch and Baleful Sword; Staff of Tzeentch and Rod of Sorcery; or Staff of Tzeentch and Curved Beak and Wicked Talons."

[simakover]

Why second place on Tempest2020 take Host duplicious instead of eternal confl ? dont understand

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

first one: if I choose to arm a lord of change with a baleful sword or a rod of sorcery, I can’t use wicked talons and a curved beak right? This seems weird only because the bird doesn’t lose its beak and talons, so why does it restrict itself in combat lol.

It's a game. One could say why doesn't he wack folks with the rod, or wouldn't he be more accurate with is staff using both hands? Once you go down the rabbit whole of trying to figure out the logical reason it gets kinda dumb pretty quick. We can just leave it as it's a game and just let it be. 

1 hour ago, simakover said:

Why second place on Tempest2020 take Host duplicious instead of eternal confl ? dont understand

He wanted 2nd not third place. 

Seriously though they got a possible 7 spells to cast a turn rerolling is no joke and goes a long way to boosting thier success.  horrors in a 10 man block are bad shooting to be honest so the rend doesn't go as far against them getting a sometimes +1 to hit on a 5+ to hit unit just doesn't cut it.   This list has better magic, better summoning, and more mortal wounds than it would have if eternal conflag. A 1cp free summon on a 5+ could win a tight game for you on the spot, it's an edge case but a trump card is always good to have.

VS.

Eternal conflag gives you only an extra -1 rend against most armies in the meta right now. Honestly, that's not good enough in my opinion unless you are going heavy on the flamers. 

I think unless you are going heavy flamers i'd only run host duplicitious and guild of summoners  if running heavy daemons. As the magic steroids both give are strickly better and the artifact and command abilities hit the current meta better or are better in more situations. 

Edited January 21, 2020 by mmimzie

[simakover]

5+ is hard and Scribes already gives you full reroll to cast. Not saw any good buffs from duplicious. Eternal gives you -1 rend, flamers as battleline(make 2x10 horrost -> 1x20)

[mmimzie]

2 minutes ago, simakover said:

5+ is hard and Scribes already gives you full reroll to cast. Not saw any good buffs from duplicious. Eternal gives you -1 rend, flamers as battleline(make 2x10 horrost -> 1x20)

They are locked to change host so they can't merge horrors so that's not important. 

Blue scribes can cast endless spells on a 2+  I wouldn't waste that on his reroll spell if i'm in duplicitous. That's geminids, spell portal, or firestorm, etc going off on a 2+ i'd rather do that than get reroll cast even more so if i can get it with a artifact. Make the blue scribe a stronger caster, and he learns all the other spells from your lore and ever's warscroll spells on your first turn of casting. 

the fail on the +1 to cast on pinks is a possibility and it's a pretty heavy hit that's a +50% damage steroid if it fails so it can make them suddenly swing very poorly.  not being 20 models and not getting your spell off is a big damage difference.  So the horrors in that army are definitly a lot more screen and objective grabbers than a damage unit. So buffing thier damage isn't the most important thing. 

So the real question you are asking is, why didn't he bring a different list that does something completely different?? Because eternal conflag, Guild of Summoners, and Host Duplicitous are all powerful and have different strengths and weaknesses and lend themselves to very different and specific builds. 

[NJohansson]

3 hours ago, mmimzie said:

Eternal conflag gives you only an extra -1 rend against most armies in the meta right now. Honestly, that's not good enough in my opinion unless you are going heavy on the flamers. 

Not trying to argue which is better (to early to say IMHO and both have strong mechanics) but to me the rend is not as critical as the 12” -1 to hit with missile weapons bubble. That is the real strength of the Eternal Conf - especially with all the shooting entering the meta right now.

[Xyxel]

-1 to rend will be allways better that -1 to be hit in shooting.
Some armies do not use shooting (Nurgle, Khorne, Slaanesh)
You preffer to kill faster or to die slower? : )

Edited January 21, 2020 by Xyxel

[GeneralZero]

Lord of change : building questions.

- What set up should I build (if I can't magnetize) ?

- I can't find any magnetization video/tuto : is it possible to magnetize the weapons? Any link/image/video please?

PS: I will assemble Kairos AND a LoC (2 models, no magnet to get both). To use in AoS AND 40K. Hense the magnetization expectation....

Edited January 21, 2020 by GeneralZero

[mmimzie]

29 minutes ago, NJohansson said:

Not trying to argue which is better (to early to say IMHO and both have strong mechanics) but to me the rend is not as critical as the 12” -1 to hit with missile weapons bubble. That is the real strength of the Eternal Conf - especially with all the shooting entering the meta right now.

 

16 minutes ago, Xyxel said:

-1 to rend will be allways better that -1 to be hit in shooting.
Enemy shooting is happening once per turn, combat in both players turn.
You preffer to kill faster or to die slower? : )

Hey it's great input @NJohansson

However, i agree with @Xyxel, but also in a tournament setting that shooting -1 to hit only matter when you get matched against shooting armies. You can go 5 round in a tournament where 50% of all the armies are shooting  and not meet a single shooting list. Or at best the -1 to hit only matters 50% of the time, and even against shooting armies many like bone reapers or cities have large parts of the army that aren't shoot based. So in the games where it matters it might only matter for a fraction of the damage coming your way.

 

For instance look at gain's games in this event. He went against only 2 real shoot threats. Bonenreapers with 2 crawlers, and skaven with 3 ratlings and 2 warp lightning cannons. The crawlers were 400pts out of 1600pts. While a big threat for sure the -1 to hit is only a small decrease in damage against a fractions a 4th of the enemy army.  While, the -1 to hit does nothing against the warp lightning cannons and the ratlings where only 240pts worth of models. 

The rend matters in every single game. Similarly the host has its save bonus and reroll spell cast matter in every game, and guild has the whole coven matter in every game. 

 

So the real reason to take conflag is going to be that rend and the flamers as battle line. As such when taking eternal conflagration I really refommend only using it if you wanna run any combination of 2 or more of 6 flamers and/or 20 horrors as that's where you'll get the most bang for your buck. Otherwise, your list might be better being something else.

 

TLDR: So while the -1 to hit is definitely not nothing. The the rend is why you take the conflgration. As it's the one element you can rely on and will have the most impact. 

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, GeneralZero said:

Lord of change : building questions.

- What set up should I build (if I can't magnetize) ?

- I can't find any magnetization video/tuto : is it possible to magnetize the weapons? Any link/image/video please?

PS: I will assemble Kairos AND a LoC (2 models, no magnet to get both). To use in AoS AND 40K. Hense the magnetization expectation....

It doesn't super matter what you are going to take. 

 

However if you never intend to charge stuff with the big chicken them take the rodm either way they all do similar damage. 

 

Blade is better when buffed is arcane transformation

Claws are better out straight up.

The rod is a ranged attack meaning you don't have to fight. 

 

[NJohansson]

1 hour ago, mmimzie said:

 

Hey it's great input @NJohansson

However, i agree with @Xyxel, but also in a tournament setting that shooting -1 to hit only matter when you get matched against shooting armies. You can go 5 round in a tournament where 50% of all the armies are shooting  and not meet a single shooting list. Or at best the -1 to hit only matters 50% of the time, and even against shooting armies many like bone reapers or cities have large parts of the army that aren't shoot based. So in the games where it matters it might only matter for a fraction of the damage coming your way.

 

For instance look at gain's games in this event. He went against only 2 real shoot threats. Bonenreapers with 2 crawlers, and skaven with 3 ratlings and 2 warp lightning cannons. The crawlers were 400pts out of 1600pts. While a big threat for sure the -1 to hit is only a small decrease in damage against a fractions a 4th of the enemy army.  While, the -1 to hit does nothing against the warp lightning cannons and the ratlings where only 240pts worth of models. 

The rend matters in every single game. Similarly the host has its save bonus and reroll spell cast matter in every game, and guild has the whole coven matter in every game. 

 

So the real reason to take conflag is going to be that rend and the flamers as battle line. As such when taking eternal conflagration I really refommend only using it if you wanna run any combination of 2 or more of 6 flamers and/or 20 horrors as that's where you'll get the most bang for your buck. Otherwise, your list might be better being something else.

 

TLDR: So while the -1 to hit is definitely not nothing. The the rend is why you take the conflgration. As it's the one element you can rely on and will have the most impact. 

Interesting points - not sure I agree entirely though.:) -1 rend is very powerful (pending on which units you use naturally) and the more flamers and horrors the more vital it becomes. 
 

However -1 against shooting which becomes -2 for most heroes (-3 if needed by spells) results in that it is very hard to surgically remove my casters from +18” away (the LoC/destiny dice handles spells very well).  This results in that I can be more aggressive with my heroes and in my experience - if most of my heroes are alive at the end of the game I am usually winning the attrition/objective game.  Naturally this only applies 50% of all games (at best) but pure close combat armies are generally not my biggest fear (there are always exception - but my lists/play style tend to favor said matchups) so the -1 additional modifier against shooting helps me against my worst matchups - while the -1 additional rend helps with damage, but that was never my biggest concern with all mortal wounds that I can deliver through spells.
 

One of the most used artifact for Tzeentch (prior to the Battletome) was  The Gryp-Feather Charm and With the Locus we now have it within 12” of the LOC so 30” radius which is absolutely amazing.

[Sumanye]

I think it really depends on the battle plan which is going to be better.  On battle plans where you need to spread out, that -1 to hit bubble doesn't do much even if your opponent brings range and host duplicitous ability to deny withdraw from combat is potentially huge.  

My first impression is (still experimenting with this book like everyone else), the better you are at this game, the better host duplicitous looks over eternal conflagration.  You can make up for -1 to hit against your heroes or at least mitigate against needing it with smarter play, but you cannot make up for an ability that lets you totally lock your opponent down with horrors and deny them objectives.  That ability just seems crazy strong if played well.

[mmimzie]

4 hours ago, NJohansson said:

Interesting points - not sure I agree entirely though.:) -1 rend is very powerful (pending on which units you use naturally) and the more flamers and horrors the more vital it becomes. 
 

However -1 against shooting which becomes -2 for most heroes (-3 if needed by spells) results in that it is very hard to surgically remove my casters from +18” away (the LoC/destiny dice handles spells very well).  This results in that I can be more aggressive with my heroes and in my experience - if most of my heroes are alive at the end of the game I am usually winning the attrition/objective game.  Naturally this only applies 50% of all games (at best) but pure close combat armies are generally not my biggest fear (there are always exception - but my lists/play style tend to favor said matchups) so the -1 additional modifier against shooting helps me against my worst matchups - while the -1 additional rend helps with damage, but that was never my biggest concern with all mortal wounds that I can deliver through spells.
 

One of the most used artifact for Tzeentch (prior to the Battletome) was  The Gryp-Feather Charm and With the Locus we now have it within 12” of the LOC so 30” radius which is absolutely amazing.

I was up there as one of the ones who recommended feather charm. The difference with the charm is it was also good  agaisnt melee as well. More importantly the quality of shooting was different. The best shooting out there you'd see hit naturally on 4s or 5s, such as KO companies and celestar balistas. This is important as -1 to hit against a 4+ to hit is a 1/3rd damage cut, and against 5s a 50% damage cut. So it was pretty much all you needed to keep your LoC safe in most situations. 

Today we have mortek crawlers that are 2+, cities hitting on 3s and 2s, Skaven shooting being warplightning cannons and jezzells (with unmodified 6s to hit doing mortals), and other units that the feather charm does really affect. The crawler at -1 to hit is only a 20% damage cut, and crawlers can get rerolls that mitigate this bonus. 

So when we look at the minus one to hit and we say shooting is in the meta, we have to see what shooting is in the meta and how much that matters. Also the buff is on a character who must be in range and even with -1 or -2 to hit good shooting to kill characters. -2 to hit for instance means 1 crawler still has a great chance of killing a horror hero in one vally or shooting like an above 50% change. While an LoC can live through the first valley of 2 crawlers on average (more so with destiny dice) so the math doesn't help an LoC. Sooo against the meta even if the shooting armies we have now got bigger i don't rate a -1 to hit against only shooting. If it was also melee i'd rate it very high even if it was just another feather charm that only affected the one model then it changes thing as -2 to hit against melee can make a LoC a more agressive model who doesn't need protection, while also mitagating some shooting. 

The conversation also started with host vs conflag and host has a better artifact of the +1 save.  Which is more of that feather charm on your LoC and will matter for more situations. Feather charm is still better because rend exist, but i'd rather the bonus save over -1 to hit form shooting specificly. 

I think i'm not really saying the -1 to hit is bad or terrible, but that -1 to hit is such an edge case thing in the current meta where in most match ups it does matter, in the match up where it does the effect is very small. I definitly think there are certain specific match ups where that -1 to hit really can change the game. However, when i look a normal tournament or random gaming scene i think the real motivation for conflagration is going to be that rend and flamers being battle line. 

I'd say eternal conflag is REALLY good because it's good on the back of rend and that you can make a change host list with flamers as battline. Which is big because it lets you bring a 20 pink horror squad as a screen, but they will also put out better damage which is really great. Most other list can't run change host with 20 pinks.  While on top of making the pinks more kill by letting you take 20 in change host it also give the flamers and pinks a nice little damage steroid.

Which is why the person who did run congflag had this list

[FatherTurin]

7 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Lord of change : building questions.

- What set up should I build (if I can't magnetize) ?

- I can't find any magnetization video/tuto : is it possible to magnetize the weapons? Any link/image/video please?

PS: I will assemble Kairos AND a LoC (2 models, no magnet to get both). To use in AoS AND 40K. Hense the magnetization expectation....

The Rod is the strictly superior choice in 40k (iirc), so if you want viability in both games without magnets, I’d go for that.

[Jestador]

Greetings! my local store is starting an escalation league next month and I've decided my time for Tzeentch has come.

 

My basic question is with 2x SC, some tzangors and enlightened what would be a good start for 1k so I could learn and then upgrade to the 1500 and then 2000 point?