Sunraeteam Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 48 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said: Wow thanks for the reply, your point of view is really interesting. I think you are right, 6-7 tzaangor is not very much when compared with other abilities that other factions have. My meta is mainly fec, slaanesh, nighthaunt, LoN and destruction, so maybe it could be worth it at some point. Personally, I don't like very much screamers so I prefer to keep them away hehe. One point that maybe it's unnoticed is the command trait from Cult of the trascient form (+2 bravery to nearly units) that can avoid some flying away tzaangors as their bravery is pretty lame. I like very much your Host duplicitus approach, but maybe in that case I would change the 40 kairics to 20 chaos warriors, as they hold the line much better (however I'd be losing 1 potential fate point each turn). But well, it's all about testing so we'll see how it works. For the question: if you mean artefacts and stuff... I'd probably take Paradoxical shield or Wellspring of Arcane Might to the gaunt and Nexus of fate or Daemonspark for the general. I see you have stayed away from battalions and playing the race to the bottom in low dropps. Might I suggest investing in some cheap throwaway units if staying in transient form. Or perhaps splitting one of your units in2 smaller blocks to make use of the MSU style deployment, make the opponent comit to the board while you place some screening units with threats behind. Also would B nice if you made your opponent make some hard choises right from turn 1. If you want to go with tzaangors or chaos warriors on foot, having the bridge for 80 points would perhaps not B a bad idea? Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient FormLeadersGaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)- General- Trait: Defiant in their Pursuit- Lore of Fate: Bolt of TzeentchOgroid Thaumaturge (160)- Artefact: Chaotica Amulet- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateTzaangor Shaman (150)- Lore of Fate: Arcane SuggestionBattleline10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)20 x Tzaangors (360)10 x Chaos Warriors (200)- Hand Weapon & ShieldUnits6 x Tzaangor Enlightened (200)3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsSoulscream Bridge (80)Total: 1990 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 149 This version of your list has most of your army screened by small cheap fanatical units of Kairic acolytes and brings enlightened on foot. We have dropped the fatemaster and we are looking to force the bridge with fate-points and put a real threat in front of the other player turn 1. Did he bring screens? make him have them, did he give you first turn? Make him regret it... you could ezely drop the chaos warriors and just bring more enlightened. you get 9 on foot for less points then 6 on discs. And with no demon keyword I like this list better. Feedback? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunraeteam Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I see it playing like this: Ogroid leading the chaos warriors with shield of fate while all the Tzaangors are led by the shaman. Acolytes and demons are led by the gaunt summoner playing Thulsa Doom, "What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?" Most problems are solved with the bridge, Gaunt summoner has short range on his aoe spell, use the bridge. Tzaangors not eating your oponents army turn 1? Bridge and fate points will solve that sucker. Ogroid badass but no fast? Bridge. Its a strange list as its melee Tzeentch cose sometimes you just want to turn brain off and roll some dice! this list has some ranged units as well in the pink horrors and the small units of loyal acolytes and the 7 battleline units makes linebraker a breeze... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunraeteam Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 I would probbably change the spell on the gaunt summoner to treacherous bond. Protects your general with a 3+ look out sir and keeps him on the board for longer. If we are running acolytes we might as well lean in2 it. What stomps us dead? Better melee armies, Khorn, Fireborn, Dauthers if played well. We do have some ranged threats and guys on disc to snipe at the leaders of the other army. And having the bridge does not ALWAYS mean we have to use it, we could happily sit back and just farm fatepoints for more units with this list now that we have split ut our acolytes the clock is on the other guy. I could see this work out from time to time but some playtesting is needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simakover Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 just dont understand there buffs, sad that mostly units im play got nerfed. and why army with most use of endlesses not get any mechanics with it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, simakover said: just dont understand there buffs, sad that mostly units im play got nerfed. and why army with most use of endlesses not get any mechanics with it Because the units that got buffed couldn’t keep up and most of the units that got nerfed benefit from other synergies we didn’t use to have. Edited January 17, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simakover Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 interested how tournament roster would looks like Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 7 hours ago, Sumanye said: But what's interesting is, if you take the shaman away, skyfires are less affected and actually do more damage. Did you run the numbers with agendas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarrinTheOccult Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 9 hours ago, Sunraeteam said: I see you have stayed away from battalions and playing the race to the bottom in low dropps. Might I suggest investing in some cheap throwaway units if staying in transient form. Or perhaps splitting one of your units in2 smaller blocks to make use of the MSU style deployment, make the opponent comit to the board while you place some screening units with threats behind. Also would B nice if you made your opponent make some hard choises right from turn 1. If you want to go with tzaangors or chaos warriors on foot, having the bridge for 80 points would perhaps not B a bad idea? Yeah arcanite battalions seems pretty expensive and limits too much what you must take, Tzaangor coven is great but there's too many units in there, and witchfyre is nice but I don't plan to take 50+ acolytes (although it could work). Screening with MSU units seems nice but taking the fatemaster rerolls away seems like a lack of damage output for tzaangors (stupid 32mm bases) and makes skyfires less reliable. It's interesting taking 9 enlightened on foot instead of 6 on disc if the tactic is wait for them to come and wait to fatepoints. However it could be better having more ranged attacks or damaging spells to weaken enemy units while they are bussy dealing with so many bodies. 9 hours ago, Sunraeteam said: I see it playing like this: Ogroid leading the chaos warriors with shield of fate while all the Tzaangors are led by the shaman. Acolytes and demons are led by the gaunt summoner playing Thulsa Doom, "What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?" Most problems are solved with the bridge, Gaunt summoner has short range on his aoe spell, use the bridge. Tzaangors not eating your oponents army turn 1? Bridge and fate points will solve that sucker. Ogroid badass but no fast? Bridge. Its a strange list as its melee Tzeentch cose sometimes you just want to turn brain off and roll some dice! this list has some ranged units as well in the pink horrors and the small units of loyal acolytes and the 7 battleline units makes linebraker a breeze... I think giving shield of fate to chaos warriors is a bit redundant as they already repeat all save rolls while they are 10+ models. I don't see the bridge so reliable as you must start the phase within 6" to be allowed to use it, but it also resolves mobility problems. It will take a lot of practice to dominate the list as there's so many units (and that means more possible mistakes) 9 hours ago, Sunraeteam said: I would probbably change the spell on the gaunt summoner to treacherous bond. Protects your general with a 3+ look out sir and keeps him on the board for longer. If we are running acolytes we might as well lean in2 it. What stomps us dead? Better melee armies, Khorn, Fireborn, Dauthers if played well. We do have some ranged threats and guys on disc to snipe at the leaders of the other army. And having the bridge does not ALWAYS mean we have to use it, we could happily sit back and just farm fatepoints for more units with this list now that we have split ut our acolytes the clock is on the other guy. I could see this work out from time to time but some playtesting is needed. Overall, I see some problems with screening kairics on cult of the trascient form. If you screen with them, you are feeding tzaangors and probably wasting them as you are not going to hit with more than 12-13 tzaangors at once. That ability probably works better in mid-late game when you can take advantage of positioning new tzaangors, etc. I think it would work better on Host duplicitous as rejecting enemy opportunities of retreating with sooo many units helps a lot when we are talking about fatepoint race. It's indeed a strange list as you fight well in combat, you have shooting and you have magic, but they don't stand out in nothing at the same time. It is the sort of list that makes your opponent go mad (but also yourself xDDD) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinfullyvannila Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, DarrinTheOccult said: If you screen with them, you are feeding tzaangors and probably wasting them as you are not going to hit with more than 12-13 tzaangors at once. This is really not a downside. It’s still a negative 3 wound swing you’re dealing to your opponent. Instead of your opponent removing one wound, he is giving you 2. It also adds more wounds to the threshold that your opponent has to meet to take off the Tzaangors bonus attack. Edited January 17, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 5 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said: Did you run the numbers with agendas? I did with +1 attack and the result is still pretty much the same. Skyfires and Enlightened remain pretty similar (Skyfires still slightly more damage) if both units charge and attack first after shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xyxel Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 How many Heroes do You squeeze into Change Host battalion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracan Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Hi guys, been collecting all manner of chaos since fantasy days but never actually played tzeentch. With the new book I have been thinking of getting the lasts bits and bobs for the following list. Last 150pts are for endless spells but havent been able to give that much thought yet. Any suggestions? Any reasons why the list is a terrible idea and I am crazy? Allegiance: TzeentchLeadersGaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)- General- Trait: Illusionist- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield- Lore of Change: Treason of TzeentchGaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the FutureFatemaster (120)Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondThe Changeling (120)- Lore of Change: Fold RealityTzaangor Shaman (150)- Lore of Fate: Arcane SuggestionBattleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Units6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)Total: 1850 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 44 minutes ago, Dracan said: Hi guys, been collecting all manner of chaos since fantasy days but never actually played tzeentch. With the new book I have been thinking of getting the lasts bits and bobs for the following list. Last 150pts are for endless spells but havent been able to give that much thought yet. Any suggestions? Any reasons why the list is a terrible idea and I am crazy? Allegiance: TzeentchLeadersGaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)- General- Trait: Illusionist- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield- Lore of Change: Treason of TzeentchGaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)- Lore of Fate: Glimpse the FutureFatemaster (120)Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (160)- Lore of Fate: Treacherous BondThe Changeling (120)- Lore of Change: Fold RealityTzaangor Shaman (150)- Lore of Fate: Arcane SuggestionBattleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)Units6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)Total: 1850 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 96 Couple things I would say, Fatemaster seems largely wasted in this list, skyfires don't need the buff for combat, so you are really only buffing their arrows which is about 1 extra wound against a 4+ save, not worth a command point. Personally do not think Cursling was worth 160 before this book and he certainly isn't now that we have so many better casters, consider a changecaster or fateskimmer instead. If you are dead set on Cursling however, give him a more useful spell lore. Lastly, you should consider Pyrofane cult if running that many acolytes and also consider witchfyre coven for an extra artifact or maybe increase to 30 20 20 on acolytes with the points you saved on a curseling and fatemaster. Our hosts are too good to ignore imo, I wouldn't take a general command trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Another note is to be wary of Alphas on Gaunt Summoners. They are very squishy, and have a tremendous target painted on them. They can be an amazing game changer, or a colossal waste of points. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoloMcFury Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 1 hour ago, Xyxel said: How many Heroes do You squeeze into Change Host battalion? I find you can fit 2 more (besides LoC) pretty comfortably. The Changeling seems like a no-brainer at this point, since he' s now a 120 point, 2-cast wizard who can pop up wherever you need (in most missions) and fire off Geminids + a lore spell right on your opponent's doorstep. This is the main use I've found for destiny dice on turn 1. Geminids is just sooooo powerful, especially when it stacks with other -1 to hits. Herald of Tzeentch on foot took a slight hit, but got slight discount as well. He's still solid for deploying on the line and forcing your opponent to either back off a bit or get hit by Balewind Vortex > Pink Fire > Bolt of Tzeetnch (using fate dice if you want). You could even go less shooty and more magic damage and bring the Blue Scribes, who are as solid as ever. If going that route, you could Changehost move the Herald + another caster hero (probably another Herald) close enough to your opponent to unleash their spells turn 1 (instead of shooting blocks of Pink Horrors or Flamers), but I don't know that it would be enough damage to really cripple them. Although it wouldn't fit in the battalion, the Gaunt Summoner is mighty tempting since it comes with 10 Pink Horrors, who do not seem restricted from taking a normal move, since they show up in the hero phase. His spell took a slight hit, but can still terrorize 40-60 model hordes (13-20 wounds average respectively. You'd need Balewind to ever have a shot of actually hitting something with it though. If you're going the shooty route, another hero who doesn't fit in the battalion is the Fatemaster. Re-rolling hits for a block of Pink Horrors and/or Flamers is a huge buff, though I think I'd have trouble finding the command points, because they're needed to keep the big Horror blobs ignoring morale. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paniere Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 i m fought between a 4 heroes configuration, leaving 50 pts for endless spells (so no geminids), and a 3 heroes one leaving 110 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Yeah, dropping The Changeling with geminids and treason of tzeentch in addition to his -1 hit ability in your opponents back line turn 1 seems like it will create a serious problem for your opponent to deal with even without Changehost to back it up. Possibly also add balewind. With all the -1 to hit, it's possible he survives with a 4+ save depending on what is near. Can also use Balewind to back him up a little bit after he uses Misdirection and the unit he hit might not even be able to charge him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paniere Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 guys you can't do that, the Changeling arrives at the end of movement phase in turn one so no spells 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaskier Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Exactly, and honestly why I'm happy to not make use of that rule in a lot of scenarios. A 120 point 2-cast wizard wracks up fate points quite nicely and is cheap enough to teleport around with the Changehost to enable its debuffs and sling some spells out without worrying too much about losing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoloMcFury Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 8 minutes ago, Paniere said: guys you can't do that, the Changeling arrives at the end of movement phase in turn one so no spells Ah man, good point. I don't know how I missed that. I just read the first part (at the start of first battle round) and skipped to him showing up. One less busted thing in a Changehost is healthy for the game though, for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sumanye Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 29 minutes ago, Paniere said: guys you can't do that, the Changeling arrives at the end of movement phase in turn one so no spells Oh wow, yup I guess I never finished ready the rest of his ability haha. Thanks for pointing this out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccconner777 Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Was building slaves to darkness and have always loved the lord of change model... so here's my attempt at a fun tzeentch list with those models. The idea is to cast tome of eyes with Kairos to allow pretty reliable casts of three high damage spells each round: gift of change from his warscroll, firestorm/inferno (ive seen it called by 2 different names) as his lore spell and bolt of tzeentch or chaos wind for hordes from knowing nearby wizard's spells for some hefty targeted mortal wounds on important targets and then the other wizards toss out the endless spells to pepper around more mortals. The units meanwhile are just looking to take and hold objectives. Doesnt make use of the potential of a lot of tzeentch's allegiance abilities, but it's gotta be better than the paltry abilities tzeentch gets in the slaves to darkness battletome. Allegiance: TzeentchLeadersKairos Fateweaver (400)- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's FirestormChaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)- General- Trait: Nexus of Fate- Artefact: Paradoxical Shield- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumChaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- Lore of Fate: Bolt of TzeentchBattleline15 x Chaos Warriors (300)- Hand Weapon & Shield5 x Chaos Warriors (100)- Hand Weapon & Shield40 x Chaos Marauders (300)- Axes & ShieldsUnits5 x Chaos Knights (180)- Ensorcelled WeaponsBehemothsChaos Warshrine (170)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsBurning Sigil of Tzeentch (40)Daemonic Simulacrum (50)Darkfire Daemonrift (50)Tome of Eyes (40)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 138 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaronBanana Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 Hey all, I'm trying to build a list around Archaon and being relatively new to AoS, I'm not sure how to fully take advantage of the various rules. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Pyrofane CultMortal Realm: UlguLeadersArchaon the Everchosen (800)- General- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumLord of Change (380)Battleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)Total: 1780 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 94 I have 220 points to spare and spells to pick for the LoC. Any advice on how to move forward with a list around Archaon? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimrock Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, BaronBanana said: Hey all, I'm trying to build a list around Archaon and being relatively new to AoS, I'm not sure how to fully take advantage of the various rules. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Pyrofane CultMortal Realm: UlguLeadersArchaon the Everchosen (800)- General- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumLord of Change (380)Battleline20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)Total: 1780 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 94 I have 220 points to spare and spells to pick for the LoC. Any advice on how to move forward with a list around Archaon? Tossing in the blue scribes helps him get infusion off more consistently, and the chaos sorcerer lord with mark of tzeentch is his bff. Refolls to hit, wound, and save are pretty essential to make sure that you get the most out of the 800 points. Unfortunately that's 230 points, so I would drop 10 kairics and grab a couple endless spells. Cogs are good for Archaon, but a spell portal works too. After that make sure you trigger the charge agenda to give him the +1 attacks at some point, and the +1 save is money as well. Oh, and of course using destiny dice to trigger the slayer of kings and auto kill a hero is solid. Edited January 17, 2020 by Grimrock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaronBanana Posted January 17, 2020 Share Posted January 17, 2020 28 minutes ago, Grimrock said: Tossing in the blue scribes helps him get infusion off more consistently, and the chaos sorcerer lord with mark of tzeentch is his bff. Refolls to hit, wound, and save are pretty essential to make sure that you get the most out of the 800 points. Unfortunately that's 230 points, so I would drop 10 kairics and grab a couple endless spells. Cogs are good for Archaon, but a spell portal works too. After that make sure you trigger the charge agenda to give him the +1 attacks at some point, and the +1 save is money as well. Oh, and of course using destiny dice to trigger the slayer of kings and auto kill a hero is solid. Thanks for the advice. Would bringing in marauders vs acolytes be more beneficial or are fate points and summoning essential? Bringing marauders would let me take Kairos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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