AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Gwendar]

1 minute ago, Sunraeteam said:

1. Not a trap but you have to build your list around it. Having an early 2380 points on the table can give you an edge. You are giving upp l8game flexibility tho. With the change only letting you summon one unit a turn having that unit B a lord of change seems ok.

2. Pyrofane cult seems like a more balanced alternative. Enlightend does not stack upp to trolls and other hard hitting units in the game but what would the alternative B? You want something with bite in melee and Enlightend fit the bill.  sorc on manticore? Mutalist beast and hope for free spawns? Most of the time you want flying to get around endless spells and terrain.

3. My pick right now, mostly cus I have the models but it also seems good right now, expect most people to overload on flamers and skimp on horrors. Glas cannon is glass. I expect a more ballanced lists to make the rounds after the alpha strike fad wears off. Flamer range is 18 but has to stand 9 from screens so keep 9 from screen and use ranged to hit back. I mostly play as unead and I would just hide my heros first few turns and screen with my big blocks of skeletons, Still free teleports with no casting involved are great for the threat it prepresents to the backfield. With minus to hitt spells from more and more factions in play I expect MSU to come back in a big way, You do not whant a big powerfull unit of say Enlightend to get a minus 3 to hit from items, spells etc. All eggs in one basket is risky.

1. I just feel Tzeentch isn't something you build around summoning (which I'm okay with) now that the Horrors have changed. 10 Blues for 10 seems to be the ideal thing you would want to summon as other things seem more out of reach.. and in doing that you're effectively getting 20 wounds. Being able to throw out 2 LoC's seems a better power tradeoff, though you now need to build more bodies into your lists by default, which is why I see many adding 1-2 Gaunts in these lists as auto-includes on top of 20 Pinks.

2. That's what I mean... having a balanced list is something I try to strive for (all-comers and all) and Enlightened are what you want and arguably the only melee hammer I would consider. I think if I want an alternative to Changehost\Conflag, that's likely the 2nd best option at a glance.

3. I've made speculations and measured out ranges on being able to hide\outrange Flamer units T1 a few pages back.. and it's difficult due to most battleplan deployment. The issue you face as a Tzeentch player is that if you do get that close, you're wiped out next turn.. but at the same time, what if you trade 360 points worth of Flamers for 500+ in other units? 1-drop gives you the ability to make that choice with the teleport and even without it, their 27" threat range is incredible.

Is it the Flamers? Other shooting units do plenty more damage, though they tend to be more expensive.. but I'm not a fan of comparing units outside a faction in a vacuum, as things are balanced for that army with it's buffs in mind. Is it the Changehost? Even if you disregard the teleport, getting the 1-drop and 12+ Flamers that can easily sit behind screens and use their 18" range to shoot things off the board is strong in itself. The other strategy most commonly talked about is just teleporting the Horrors onto objectives T1 and dare you opponent to get in range of all the -1 to hit Flamers that are standing behind them.

Yeah.. so I'm still building it myself, but I know from experience the "one-basket" approach is risky (I played the 9 Stormfiend lists after all).. but unlike those armies, I will (usually) have the easy option dictating who goes first and can deploy accordingly.. and that's incredibly powerful in itself.

[Sunraeteam]

2 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Outside Pyrofane/changehost, horrors are more tissue paper than clan rats. They went up in points for a less flexible form of splitting than they used to have. They cant take lore spells anymore and cease becoming a wizard period after a few casualties. Fold is MUCH more risky on them than it use to be.

Flamers, exalteds, and burning chariots are also FAR less durable for their points than Skyfires/Enlightened, and once again outside pyrofane/changehost, will be doing FAR less damage.

Horrors cease beaing a wizzard yes. But they can still cast the one spell they have on the warscroll, they just loose some bonuses asosiated with being a wizzard. Even brimstone horrors can do that. Expect some list with 10 units of brimstone horrors being like yes Ill take that 10 extra  dispells in case of endless spell spam, thanx... unbinds also have value. You could also argue that one unit of horrors could always cast the warscroll spell but 9 or more pink horrors are needed for aditional cast of the warscroll spell. Here is the text from the Horror warscroll:

"This unit is a Wizard while it has 9 or more Pink Horrors. It can attempt to cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. It knows the Channelled Pink Fire spell. It cannot attempt to cast any spells other than Channelled Pink Fire, but any number of Horrors of Tzeentch units that have 9 or more Pink Horrors can attempt to cast Channelled Pink Fire in the same hero phase."

There are lots of examples of non wizzards casting spells, like command traints or items for undead or Hallowheart (Whitefire Tome) Probbably more examples as well but it seems casting/dispelling spells and the keyword wizzard do not always go hand in hand.

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

Horrors cease beaing a wizzard yes. But they can still cast the one spell they have on the warscroll, they just loose some bonuses asosiated with being a wizzard. Even brimstone horrors can do that.

No.. they can't. It specifically states it's a wizard if you have 9+ Pink Horrors in the unit. If you aren't a Wizard, you can't cast a spell. Period.

Your example of Whitefire Tome just allows a Wizard to know all the lore spells.. if they are not a Wizard they're given explicit permission to cast one. Horrors are only a wizard and can only cast that spell while you have 9+ Pinks in the unit. If that weren't the case, believe me you would be seeing a lot more blues and brims running around in lists.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Gwendar

[HarbingerGaming]

19 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Flamers, exalteds, and burning chariots are also FAR less durable for their points than Skyfires/Enlightened, and once again outside pyrofane/changehost, will be doing FAR less damage.

This is very important to consider. Before I jumped into the Skyfire train a couple of years ago I used Flamers because they were awesome in fantasy and probably my favorite unit of all of Fantasy period. However, Tzeentch Daemons are extremely squishy, and will fold to most things coming at them. They just don't stick around as long as Enlightened/Skyfires, and said units don't have to be in any particular coven to really amplify what they are already good at. 

[Sunraeteam]

6 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

No.. they can't. It specifically states it's a wizard if you have 9+ Pink Horrors in the unit. If you aren't a Wizard, you can't cast a spell. Period.

Page 8 in the basic rules. "Sometimes an ability will allow a model that is not a wizard to attempt to cast or unbind spells. They do so using the rules below and are affected by abilities that modify casting or unbinding rolls, but they are not a wizard for any other rules purposes."

I could... Again have gotten it backwards, just saying, when I read the rules it seems like they could have tied the casting of the spell and having 9 pink together but they did not... Something like, while this unit is a wizzard it can cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Just seems odd.

[Gwendar]

9 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

Page 8 in the basic rules. "Sometimes an ability will allow a model that is not a wizard to attempt to cast or unbind spells. They do so using the rules below and are affected by abilities that modify casting or unbinding rolls, but they are not a wizard for any other rules purposes."

I could... Again have gotten it backwards, just saying, when I read the rules it seems like they could have tied the casting of the spell and having 9 pink together but they did not... Something like, while this unit is a wizzard it can cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Just seems odd.

Which, for your Whitefire Tome example works.. but it doesn't work for Horrors. The rule on their warscroll states they're a Wizard at 9+ Pinks and that's that.. you have to be a Wizard to cast that spell. If you do not have 9+ Pinks left in the unit, you are no longer a Wizard and therefore you cannot cast the spell. There are no bonuses to having 9+ Pinks as you referenced earlier other than being able to cast this spell. Anything else (the Petty Vengeance, 6++ FNP, Iridescent Horror, Icon Bearer and Hornblower) just require Pinks.

I would reference the latter part of their Magic section: "any number of Horrors as Tzeentch units that have 9 or more Pink Horrors can attempt to cast...etc"

To me, that's pretty clear that they need to have 9+ Pinks.

Edited January 16, 2020 by Gwendar

[AverageBoss]

14 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

Page 8 in the basic rules. "Sometimes an ability will allow a model that is not a wizard to attempt to cast or unbind spells. They do so using the rules below and are affected by abilities that modify casting or unbinding rolls, but they are not a wizard for any other rules purposes."

I could... Again have gotten it backwards, just saying, when I read the rules it seems like they could have tied the casting of the spell and having 9 pink together but they did not... Something like, while this unit is a wizzard it can cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Just seems odd.

They dont have an ability that lets them cast while not being a wizard. They have an rule (listed under MAGIC not ABILITIES) that makes them a wizard at 9+ models.

Edited January 16, 2020 by AverageBoss

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

Page 8 in the basic rules. "Sometimes an ability will allow a model that is not a wizard to attempt to cast or unbind spells. They do so using the rules below and are affected by abilities that modify casting or unbinding rolls, but they are not a wizard for any other rules purposes."

I could... Again have gotten it backwards, just saying, when I read the rules it seems like they could have tied the casting of the spell and having 9 pink together but they did not... Something like, while this unit is a wizzard it can cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Just seems odd.

The warscrolls is not an example of this exception. The rest of the casting rules are prefaced by the conditions of it being a wizard. Ideally they would have chosen to use a semicolon to connect the first two sentences.

An example would be the Fatesworn Warband allegiance ability from the Slaves to Darkness. Which does not involve making the unit a wizard, but does grant them the ability to cast a spell when the unit has more than 9 models.

[Sunraeteam]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Which, for your Whitefire Tome example works.. but it doesn't work for Horrors. The rule on their warscroll states they're a Wizard at 9+ Pinks and that's that.. you have to be a Wizard to cast that spell. If you do not have 9+ Pinks left in the unit, you are no longer a Wizard and therefore you cannot cast the spell.There are no bonuses to having 9+ Pinks as you referenced earlier other than being able to cast this spell. Anything else (the Petty Vengeance, 6++ FNP, Iridescent Horror, Icon Bearer and Hornblower).

At the very least I would reference the latter part of their Magic section. "any number of Horrors as Tzeentch units that have 9 or more Pink Horrors can attempt to cast...etc"

To me, that's pretty clear that they need to have 9+ Pinks.

 

2 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

They dont have an ability that lets them cast while not being a wizard. They have an ability that makes them a wizard at 9+ models.

They have an ability that lets them cast a spell while not being a wizzard. Is says clearly:  It can attempt to cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Period. (C what I did there) At the same time the Horrors warscroll does not have the Wizzard keyword. One of the bonuses you lose out on for not being a wizzard would B, say, rerolls from blue scribes? And other demon or tzeentch + wizzard abilitys. Some probbably also needs the hero keyword so those are out.

And the last part of the magic entry for the horror units clearly references the number of units that can cast the spell as the normal amount of casting is: You cannot attempt to cast the same spell more than once in the same turn.

I might B wrong just point out how Im wrong.

[HarbingerGaming]

4 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

 

They have an ability that lets them cast a spell while not being a wizzard. Is says clearly:  It can attempt to cast 1 spell in your hero phase and attempt to unbind 1 spell in the enemy hero phase. Period. (C what I did there) At the same time the Horrors warscroll does not have the Wizzard keyword. One of the bonuses you lose out on for not being a wizzard would B, say, rerolls from blue scribes? And other demon or tzeentch + wizzard abilitys. Some probbably also needs the hero keyword so those are out.

And the last part of the magic entry for the horror units clearly references the number of units that can cast the spell as the normal amount of casting is: You cannot attempt to cast the same spell more than once in the same turn.

I might B wrong just point out how Im wrong.

If you need an example: Evocators. They are worded the exact same way as the Horrors are. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by HarbingerGaming

[AverageBoss]

You are wrong because you must be a wizard to cast a spell. Being able to cast or dispel at all is dependent on being a wizard. The section you are quoting tells you how they behave while they are a wizard (its a pretty necessary bit of info). But they cease to be a wizard at 8 or less pinks, and so that section becomes irrelevant. Same exact way Evocators work.

[Sunraeteam]

When I read evocators it seems to me like they should always get to cast the spell, only the wizzard keyword is tied to having 2 of them. 

 

20 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The warscrolls is not an example of this exception. The rest of the casting rules are prefaced by the conditions of it being a wizard. Ideally they would have chosen to use a semicolon to connect the first two sentences.

An example would be the Fatesworn Warband allegiance ability from the Slaves to Darkness. Which does not involve making the unit a wizard, but does grant them the ability to cast a spell when the unit has more than 9 models.

Hey I did not even think of the Fatesworn warband but yeah there seems like a strong corelation between not wizzards casting spells. And the base rules even metioning that you do not have to B a wizzard to cast spells. Ill keep an eye open for uppcomming FAQ. 

It just stand as a good example of the importance of the semicolon when dealing with morons like myself!

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

When I read evocators it seems to me like they should always get to cast the spell, only the wizzard keyword is tied to having 2 of them. 

And you need to be a Wizard to cast that spell. You keep referencing the section about abilities that allow a unit that's not a Wizard to cast a spell to be able to cast one... but this (and the Horrors) do not have such ability as @AverageBoss pointed out.

No FAQ is needed as it should be clear that unless you are a Wizard, you cannot cast spells.

[Sunraeteam]

 

7 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

And you need to be a Wizard to cast that spell. You keep referencing the section about abilities that allow a unit that's not a Wizard to cast a spell to be able to cast one... but this (and the Horrors) do not have such ability as @AverageBoss pointed out.

No FAQ is needed as it should be clear that unless you are a Wizard, you cannot cast spells.

Were does it say that you have to be a Wizzard to cast a spell? Not in the base rules, in fact it states the oposite as it opens upp for the possibility for non wizzards casting spells. You are probbably right as it is intended. But not as it is written.

How about we get back to some Tzeentch goodness? What amount of blue horros should I bring to the table if my list has 30 pink horrors? Right now I have 20 and some old spares making the total 26 blue and 20 brimstone.

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

It’s as much of a trap as anything else that isn’t Conflagration. It’s just a fun way to play with more than 1 Loc.

True.. I think I just really want something that mirrors my magic-based Skaven list, so.. all in all it would likely be the "fun\casual" list choice.

I will say that all the Kairic and Enlightened\Skyfire talk is making me interested in a Pyrofane build as mentioned earlier. 30 Kairics fully buffed are throwing out ~30 damage if you include the free shooting in the hero phase.. and as others have pointed out, Kairics are more resilient than they seem. I don't think Skyfires really fit in this same vein though as you want to run as many Kairics as possible. I would rather use them with 9 Enlightened and 2x3 Skyfires (or run Skyshoal).

[Sumanye]

18 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

 

Were does it say that you have to be a Wizzard to cast a spell? Not in the base rules, in fact it states the oposite as it opens upp for the possibility for non wizzards casting spells. You are probbably right as it is intended. But not as it is written.

How about we get back to some Tzeentch goodness? What amount of blue horros should I bring to the table if my list has 30 pink horrors? Right now I have 20 and some old spares making the total 26 blue and 20 brimstone.

Not trying to be rude, but nobody thinks this is true but you and you are not likely ever going to find an opponent who lets you get away with it. 

[Sunraeteam]

2 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

Not trying to be rude, but nobody thinks this is true but you and you are not likely ever going to find an opponent who lets you get away with it. 

True, this is not a conversation for the table. Its a good thing we are not in a game, but in a discussion forum arguing the finer points of warscrolls and fictional plastic monster soldiers. @:-)

[Starfyre]

22 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

True, this is not a conversation for the table. Its a good thing we are not in a game, but in a discussion forum arguing the finer points of warscrolls and fictional plastic monster soldiers. @:-)

Debating finer points is fine, but the wording is really really clear, there literally is no debate.

The wording explicitly says you have to have 9 or more pink horrors to cast the Channelled Pink Fire spell.

Therefore if you have less than 9 you cannot cast it. 

it’s not an ability to cast the spell, the core rule you’re referring to does not apply.

[Death1942]

1 hour ago, Sunraeteam said:

 

How about we get back to some Tzeentch goodness? What amount of blue horros should I bring to the table if my list has 30 pink horrors? Right now I have 20 and some old spares making the total 26 blue and 20 brimstone.

dragging the conversation back to a sensible spot...

Well for a start you need at least 60 blues for your pinks.  Then if you plan on doing any summoning during the game blues seem to be the best bang for your summoning points buck so maybe a few more.  In saying that what are the chances you end up with all 60 blues on the table at once?  Pretty slim I imagine so you might be able to get away with 40-50 but I would suggest you play a few games with proxy blues and see how many you end up pulling out.

[SwashBuccaneer]

Can the Acolytes and Pinks still cast their spells after they drop below 9 models?

The warscrolls say they are wizards at 9+ but this game is new to me so the rules are tricky still. 

[mmimzie]

4 minutes ago, SwashBuccaneer said:

Can the Acolytes and Pinks still cast their spells after they drop below 9 models?

The warscrolls say they are wizards at 9+ but this game is new to me so the rules are tricky still. 

Once they drop below 9 they can no longer cast thier spell unless brought back over 9 models. 
 

Edited January 16, 2020 by mmimzie

[Sumanye]

I actually think skyfires are pretty good now that enlightened aren't such a bargain.  If you compare 6 skyfires to 6 enlightened charging in and fighting first while buffed by a shaman and you consider the skyfire shooting from earlier, then these 2 units do almost identical damage, (slight edge to skyfires).  But what's interesting is, if you take the shaman away, skyfires are less affected and actually do more damage.  It's true of course that if enlightened trigger Guided by the Past, they will do tons more damage, but in my experience this is often not what I am trying to do with my enlightened.  I view guided by the past as more of a charge deterrent for the enlightened.  This is less true with spells like Treason of Tzeentch and Arcane Suggestion giving -1 to hit.  But if you are looking for a charge in and attack first type of unit without any setup, skyfires are just as good as enlightened and they can still be quite effective without a shaman making them actually a bargain over enlightened if you can't fit the shaman in a list.

Many of my lists before this book ran 6 enlightened and a shaman.  Thinking of trying out 6 skyfires and a shaman or possibly magister on disc instead.

[AverageBoss]

35 minutes ago, Sumanye said:

I actually think skyfires are pretty good now that enlightened aren't such a bargain.  If you compare 6 skyfires to 6 enlightened charging in and fighting first while buffed by a shaman and you consider the skyfire shooting from earlier, then these 2 units do almost identical damage, (slight edge to skyfires).  But what's interesting is, if you take the shaman away, skyfires are less affected and actually do more damage.  It's true of course that if enlightened trigger Guided by the Past, they will do tons more damage, but in my experience this is often not what I am trying to do with my enlightened.  I view guided by the past as more of a charge deterrent for the enlightened.  This is less true with spells like Treason of Tzeentch and Arcane Suggestion giving -1 to hit.  But if you are looking for a charge in and attack first type of unit without any setup, skyfires are just as good as enlightened and they can still be quite effective without a shaman making them actually a bargain over enlightened if you can't fit the shaman in a list.

Many of my lists before this book ran 6 enlightened and a shaman.  Thinking of trying out 6 skyfires and a shaman or possibly magister on disc instead.

Exactly what I have planned.
 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
The Changeling (120)
Magister (100)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 1970 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123
 

Summon on another unit of Pinks and a potential turn 1 LoC if needed. Just need to decide On who to make the general, and what my spell setup will be.

[DarrinTheOccult]

4 hours ago, Sunraeteam said:

In the list above, asuming all 40 Kairic Acolytes dies you gain 6-7 extra Tzaangors on average. Seems a bit meh. The big benefit is letting your guys strike back even when charged by a hard hammer units striking first. The lord on terror-geist comes to mind. The opertunity cost of having one of the other covens in stead makes it feel like a trap. Your giving upp 6 screamers and a free fly move for d3 units or +1 to hit for the Kairic acolytes in the pyrofane cult. You lack good hereos for the chainfire amulet tho so I would probbably go for the host arcanum. Make screamers a battleline unit and get a free fastmoving screen/ objective grabber seems ok, it all depends on what your meta looks like tho. If flying monsters that are hard to screen against are prevalent transient form can stay but in my eyes it seems like the least viable one as it more or less depends on you loosing models in the combat fase to work. Nighthaunt charges, shooting magic etc makes it seem like there is better alternatives out there, 9 fate point lord of change, yes plix... force oposing units to stay in melee with Tzaangors yes pliz. Going just from what you have in the list now and not whanting to go out and get more moddels I would change to Host duplicitus to limit what my oponent can do when they get in2 one of my units. Your already summoning a umit of horrors I would asume with the Gaunt summoner so you might even get to bring it back. If you dont plan to summon Horrors, or your meta is mostly strikes first slanesh and FEC. I would not change from Cult of the Transient Form

But then again Im wrong from time to time so take it with a grain of salt. @:-)

One question tho... What would you take if you did not pick a change coven?

Wow thanks for the reply, your point of view is really interesting. I think you are right, 6-7 tzaangor is not very much when compared with other abilities that other factions have. My meta is mainly fec, slaanesh, nighthaunt, LoN and destruction, so maybe it could be worth it at some point. Personally, I don't like very much screamers so I prefer to keep them away hehe.

One point that maybe it's unnoticed is the command trait from Cult of the trascient form (+2 bravery to nearly units) that can avoid some flying away tzaangors as their bravery is pretty lame.

I like very much your Host duplicitus approach, but maybe in that case I would change the 40 kairics to 20 chaos warriors, as they hold the line much better (however I'd be losing 1 potential  fate point each turn). But well, it's all about testing so we'll see how it works.

For the question: if you mean artefacts and stuff... I'd probably take Paradoxical shield or Wellspring of Arcane Might to the gaunt and Nexus of fate or Daemonspark for the general.

[Deadkitten]

2 hours ago, Death1942 said:

dragging the conversation back to a sensible spot...

Well for a start you need at least 60 blues for your pinks.  Then if you plan on doing any summoning during the game blues seem to be the best bang for your summoning points buck so maybe a few more.  In saying that what are the chances you end up with all 60 blues on the table at once?  Pretty slim I imagine so you might be able to get away with 40-50 but I would suggest you play a few games with proxy blues and see how many you end up pulling out.

The answer should always be 90.  Or 81.  Or 99.