AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[AverageBoss]

Seems like an average increase of 3 damage against armor 4+, vs his native spells 3.5 mortal wound.

The advantage in Infusion though is that its only a 5 to cast vs. a 7.

I don't think I would take the spell on anyone else (well, probably Archaon), but I think it is a viable option for the Ogriod. Especially if you have other Mortal only casters in the list.

[mmimzie]

Just now, AverageBoss said:

Seems like an average increase of 3 damage against armor 4+, vs his native spells 3.5 mortal wound.

The advantage in Infusion though is that its only a 5 to cast vs. a 7.

I don't think I would take the spell on anyone else (well, probably Archaon), but I think it is a viable option for the Ogriod. Especially if you have other Mortal only casters in the list.

you also ahve to consider you have to make it into melee

[simakover]

so, that you thoughts about new battletome? nerf or buff? that do you thinks is now would be better, that worst? 

[Sinfullyvannila]

12 minutes ago, simakover said:

so, that you thoughts about new battletome? nerf or buff? that do you thinks is now would be better, that worst? 

In theory it’s a nerf. But it’s ironically in practice  going to play much better in tournaments because Tzeentch’s biggest opponent is the time clock and paperwork errors. Our power units got nerfed but Changehost is going to be flamer heavy now so faster and less exhausting to run.

I am pretty ecstatic about the book though. 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

In theory it’s a nerf. But it’s ironically in practice  going to play much better in tournaments because Tzeentch’s biggest opponent is the time clock and paperwork errors. Our power units got nerfed but Changehost is going to be flamer heavy now so faster and less exhausting to run.

I am pretty ecstatic about the book though. 

Not sure how it can be seen as a nerf.  A minority of units got slightly worse in isolation but we got 3 new powerful alligence abilities: Locus of Change, Agendas and Cults. Tzaangor focus lists (Enlightened on Disks specifically) have arguably lost as much as they gained.

[simakover]

thats about pink horrors? still usefull? im have 2k changehost painted right now to new release, so bit worry

Edited January 16, 2020 by simakover

[Deadkitten]

2 hours ago, simakover said:

thats about pink horrors? still usefull? im have 2k changehost painted right now to new release, so bit worry

I think the Horrors will be fine.   Access to Rend is definitely a bump as is the splitting.  They are going to be very good at playing the objective game.  The are just getting over shadowed by the Flamers ATM.  Like most other Battleline units, they won't be able to get there all on their own.

[GeneralZero]

Question about bataillon : SKYSHOAL COVEN

"After a friendly unit from this battalion has made a normal move, you
can pick 1 enemy unit that has any models passed across by any models
from that friendly unit and roll a dice. On a 2+, that enemy unit suffers D3
mortal wounds"

There is 4 units (2 enlighten 2 skyfire). Does it means that if only one of my model of one unit can just pass over an enemy model that enemy unit suffer D3 MW? Meaning also that if I can do this for my 4 units, there are 4 D3 MW?

I'm thinking, with the super long move (16), and my units being for example at 12", I move up to 12.5 over enemy then 3.5 back, it triggers the abbility, doesn't it?

[Sunraeteam]

3 hours ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Not sure how it can be seen as a nerf.  A minority of units got slightly worse in isolation but we got 3 new powerful alligence abilities: Locus of Change, Agendas and Cults. Tzaangor focus lists (Enlightened on Disks specifically) have arguably lost as much as they gained.

Atleast the multiple unit summoning from the crystal labyrinth is gone. You can only summon one new unit/turn now so no more chain summoning on2 objectives. Having played a throggherd vs Hedonites of Slaanesh once and seen a new army apear on2 the table I hope other chaos factions will soon follow suit. The changes in our new book seems fine. 

[Sunraeteam]

26 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Question about bataillon : SKYSHOAL COVEN

"After a friendly unit from this battalion has made a normal move, you
can pick 1 enemy unit that has any models passed across by any models
from that friendly unit and roll a dice. On a 2+, that enemy unit suffers D3
mortal wounds"

There is 4 units (2 enlighten 2 skyfire). Does it means that if only one of my model of one unit can just pass over an enemy model that enemy unit suffer D3 MW? Meaning also that if I can do this for my 4 units, there are 4 D3 MW?

I'm thinking, with the super long move (16), and my units being for example at 12", I move up to 12.5 over enemy then 3.5 back, it triggers the abbility, doesn't it?

It does not realy matter as you can never move within 3 inches of enemy models during a normal move so the rule only comes in2 effect during a retreat. "When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit."

"If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn."

Flying lets you pass across models but does not let you move within 3 of them exept during a retreat. Its a neat trick but you mostly take the batalion for the low dropps and extra item and command point.

[Gwendar]

27 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

It does not realy matter as you can never move within 3 inches of enemy models during a normal move so the rule only comes in2 effect during a retreat. "When you make a normal move for a model, no part of the move can be within 3" of an enemy unit."

"If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn."

Flying lets you pass across models but does not let you move within 3 of them exept during a retreat. Its a neat trick but you mostly take the batalion for the low dropps and extra item and command point.

Yet, the rule about flying units specifically states that you can pass over models and terrain features as if they weren't there. The only stipulation is that it cannot end it's movement on top of another model. The rule you're referencing I believe just applies to normal moves that don't have flying. 

Plenty of other units have special things happen when they fly over units, why would this be different?

[AverageBoss]

Yes, its even possible to move just far enough to touch a unit, the fly back to your starting position to trigger such effects. Hexwraiths have been doing so for years.

[Sunraeteam]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:12 PM, Sumanye said:

Anyone have any thoughts about Kairos?  His Oracle of Eternity ability is different now, probably weaker than before the book.  But one interesting thing about Oracle of Eternity is you can use it on an opponents charge roll to make their charge roll 2-7" and unable to be modified or rerolled.  This is potentially huge if used at the right time, especially if your opponent was counting on say a short 5-6" charge and saved a command point for it just in case and you make them fail it anyway.  His spell-eater ability and triple cast can allow him to (assuming spell portal was already setup from the last turn), cast a spell through the portal, eat the portal, cast the portal, and send another spell through.  He could use this to generate 2 chaos spawn per turn at a long distance by borrowing a spell from a magister for example, or perhaps Gift of change and bolster your tzaangors at long range with Boon of Mutation and free your shaman to cast a Lore of Fate spell instead.  Seems like he can do some fun things and I'm excited to give him a try.

The Trashmen had the right of it back in 1963 the Bird is the Word!!!

Yes Kairos is great, his ability to stop a charge can win you the game and could B key in a lot of ranged lists. 

The dubble spawns from portals is not a thing tho. Endless spells have to B cast at the start of the hero fase. So after sending the first normal spell true its to l8 to open a new spell portal. And eating an endless spell also takes place in the main part of the hero fase or you could have done, purple sun + eat portal and  cast portal + spawn spell.(Gift of change)

I have a question of my own tho. Could you summon Kairos with fate points? He has the "Lord of change" keyword after all...

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

I have a question of my own tho. Could you summon Kairos with fate points? He has the "Lord of change" keyword after all...

The summoning chart lists Lord of Change, not LORD OF CHANGE. So you will not be able to.

[Gwendar]

6 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

The dubble spawns from portals is not a thing tho. Endless spells have to B cast at the start of the hero fase. So after sending the first normal spell true its to l8 to open a new spell portal. And eating an endless spell also takes place in the main part of the hero fase or you could have done, purple sun + eat portal and  cast portal + spawn spell.(Gift of change)

Where is it referenced you have to cast an endless spell at the start of the hero phase? You have to dispel them at the start of the hero phase, but as we've mentioned previously the LoC ability does not abide by this restriction. 

As it currently is, you can have a portal from the previous turn, cast a spell through it, spell-eater it and then cast it again and shoot another through it.

[Sunraeteam]

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yet, the rule about flying units specifically states that you can pass over models and terrain features as if they weren't there. The only stipulation is that it cannot end it's movement on top of another model. The rule you're referencing I believe just applies to normal moves that don't have flying. 

Plenty of other units have special things happen when they fly over units, why would this be different?

It would not B different exept perhaps that expensive units in the skyshoal coven has better things to B doing then flyover retreat moves. Like charging and kicking ass. I belive that screamers and hexwraiths work the same way. Here is the rule on flying btw. "If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move. Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move. It cannot finish the move on top of another model." Notice how it does not let you move within 3 of enemy models or change the normal retreat rules.

[AverageBoss]

7 minutes ago, Sunraeteam said:

It would not B different exept perhaps that expensive units in the skyshoal coven has better things to B doing then flyover retreat moves. Like charging and kicking ass. I belive that screamers and hexwraiths work the same way. Here is the rule on flying btw. "If the warscroll for a model says that the model can fly, it can pass across models and terrain features as if they were not there when it makes any type of move. Any vertical distance up and/or down is ignored when measuring a flying model’s move. It cannot finish the move on top of another model." Notice how it does not let you move within 3 of enemy models or change the normal retreat rules.

Q: Some abilities require a model that can fly to ‘pass across’ a model from an enemy unit. How exactly does this work?
A: In order for a model to pass across another, part of the moving model’s base must have moved across any part of the other model’s base. To determine if this is the case, trace the flying model’s move across the battlefield, checking to see if its base passed across any part of the other model’s base at any point in its move. Note that this means that the flying model can move up to an enemy model so that their bases overlap, and then move back, and will count as having ‘passed across’ the other model.

Page 4 of the FAQ.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf
 

[AverageBoss]

The ideal way to use such abilities is to move up to just overlapping, so that the effect triggers, move back to just outside 3", then go for the charge.

[Sunraeteam]

9 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Where is it referenced you have to cast an endless spell at the start of the hero phase? You have to dispel them at the start of the hero phase, but as we've mentioned previously the LoC ability does not abide by this restriction. 

As it currently is, you can have a portal from the previous turn, cast a spell through it, spell-eater it and then cast it again and shoot another through it.

Quite right! I was wrong and this opens upp a lot of new combos. Dispelling is done at the start but the casting is done as normal exept max one per caster. Moving the spells is also done at the start of the new battle round. Good catch!

[Sunraeteam]

8 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

The ideal way to use such abilities is to move up to just overlapping, so that the effect triggers, move back to just outside 3", then go for the charge.

Exept that if you have to do a retreat move to get within 3 of an enemy model your not going to do a charge move that turn. I like the FAQ quote but it does not mention what Im after. It does clear upp some things with movement and makes it clear that you do not have to end upp on the other side of the unit your flying over. The rules are quite clear that you cant move within 3 exept during a retreat move. Would B nice if this was made explicit. Perhaps this is  just me tho. @:-)

[Magnus The Blue]

1 minute ago, Sunraeteam said:

Exept that if you have to do a retreat move to get within 3 of an enemy model your not going to do a charge move that turn. I like the FAQ quote but it does not mention what Im after. It does clear upp some things with movement and makes it clear that you do not have to end upp on the other side of the unit your flying over. The rules are quite clear that you cant move within 3 exept during a retreat move. Would B nice if this was made explicit. Perhaps this is  just me tho. @:-)

You don't have to go within 3", vertical movement is free for fliers, so you just got 6" in the air, nip over the base and back down again. Simples

[Sunraeteam]

Love it!

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Q: Some abilities require a model that can fly to ‘pass across’ a model from an enemy unit. How exactly does this work?
A: In order for a model to pass across another, part of the moving model’s base must have moved across any part of the other model’s base. To determine if this is the case, trace the flying model’s move across the battlefield, checking to see if its base passed across any part of the other model’s base at any point in its move. Note that this means that the flying model can move up to an enemy model so that their bases overlap, and then move back, and will count as having ‘passed across’ the other model.

Page 4 of the FAQ.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/8f9bd00c.pdf
 

 This is exactly the right anwser I was looking for. And my example below is then perfectly valid (12.5 move+3.5 retreat in a single flying move. Then MW then charge eventually. Can be effective with 2 x 6 Enlighten and some skyfire. You can trigger something like 6/7 MW then fire then charge and got some nice reliable results especially agaisnt solid units. (the big and dangerous ones)

 

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Question about bataillon : SKYSHOAL COVEN

"After a friendly unit from this battalion has made a normal move, you
can pick 1 enemy unit that has any models passed across by any models
from that friendly unit and roll a dice. On a 2+, that enemy unit suffers D3
mortal wounds"

There is 4 units (2 enlighten 2 skyfire). Does it means that if only one of my model of one unit can just pass over an enemy model that enemy unit suffer D3 MW? Meaning also that if I can do this for my 4 units, there are 4 D3 MW?

I'm thinking, with the super long move (16), and my units being for example at 12", I move up to 12.5 over enemy then 3.5 back, it triggers the abbility, doesn't it?

 

[decker_cky]

Don't forget to ally in a great bray shaman for an extra 3" of slashing distance.

[DarrinTheOccult]

Do you think that Cult of Transient Form could be worth it? 

 

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Cult of the Transient Form

Leaders
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- Artefact: Chaotica Amulet
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (120)
- General
- Trait: Defiant in their Pursuit
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch

Battleline
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 141