AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, Xasto said:

So, after reading the book a bit more, has anyone found some cool synergies with Archaon in a Tzeentch allegiance? Other than the obvious destiny diced 6s for the Slayer of Kings

Reckless Abandon, Burning Icon of Tzeentch and Arcane Transformation giving him more attacks with slayer of kings.

[Sinfullyvannila]

13 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

So lore wise, Disks of Tzeentch are bound Screamers. With all the streamlining that took place, I am baffled they did not give Screamers the disk attack profile. Would have gone a long way towards actually giving them a purpose (a glass cannon melee unit opposite flamers being a glass cannon ranged unit), and made the chariots more enticing as well.

The purpose of Screamers is to fly around the board and go objective to objective late in the game. They can win the game for you if you know how to play them.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[mmimzie]

22 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

The purpose of Screamers is to fly around the board and go objective to objective late in the game. They can win the game for you if you know how to play them.

My 3 man scream squad objectives for most of the game tying up a 20 man unit of mortec guard for 2 turns as they stayed just out of objective grabbing range. 

[Bufkin]

14 hours ago, The_Dudemeister said:

Doesn't really matter. Here you can see the average damage of all three weapon options + Staff of Tzeentch. So even for the Rod we'd be in close combat, otherwise by itself it only does 2 damage on 4+ and 5+ save targets.

In comparison 3 Flamers (also including melee) in the Eternal Conflagration on the worst profile. So no hit bonus from Exalteds or for unit size.

There is a mistake in your math, you have not calculated rend correctly.  (Edit: never mind, I’m stupid, it’s correct).

Anyway, Sword is better than claws since it’s easier to use destiny dice on.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Bufkin

[Sumanye]

I have to say, as a big tzaangor fan, I'm seeing little reason to run them anymore.  All of the following assumes a 10 man tzaangor squad.  Here is what we have to deal with.

They need a wizard to babysit them or their damage falls significantly, if they take 4 wounds their damage almost drops in half, if you give them shields they lose a lot of punch and get little in return (about 1.3 saved wounds by the time shield bearers are dead, less than 1 Tzaangor), if you have shields and your twist bray wields a savage great blade (which he absolutely should) you need to make 5 separate attack rolls for each combat (2 paired mutants,1 twist, 4 shield, 3 great blades, and beaks ), you now must allocate wounds to shields even if you didn't want to meaning they are a potential liability for breaking unit coherency, and there is basically nothing in the book that synergies with them in a meaningful way (+1 attack agenda is probably better spent on enlightened).  They are just a real chore to fight with and the benefits are small.  The only thing they really have going for them is run and charge for a once per game sucker punch on an objective.  But even then, with the destiny dice nerf, you probably want to save your huge destiny dice charges for enlightened.

20 Kairic Acolytes for 20 points more seems strictly better.  If they get to shoot and fight they actually do more damage even without battalion or pyrofane buffs, a sizable portion of their damage is shooting, they can generate fate points, their damage scales linearly with models unlike tzaangors, they don't lose much by taking shields, they are better on objectives, and most importantly imo, they are totally autonomous and do not need a babysitter.  

I think most of these issues could be improved by dropping them to 160pts, but it's a real shame they didn't clean up the war scroll.  No opponent should be forced to watch you make 5 separate dice rolls for a battle line unit, it's just such a waste of time.  I'm not sure why they can't just call all weapons savage blades and just give them 3+ hit, 3 + wound and 3 attacks each and rend -1 damage 1.  It's essentially equivalent damage wise to what they have now at 10 man vs. a 4+ save, but all the dice can be rolled at once and they have a profile that degrades linearly.  I think that's good for 180 pt battleline that has a 5+ save and a 32 mm base with 1" weapons, but tzaangors should be good, they don't get any help anywhere else.

What are your thoughts on tzaangors?

[CJPT]

I ran a unit of 20 Tzaangor in a  game yesterday and they were the MVPs. I think a lot of your issues are valid, but stem from the fact that 10-man squads of Tzaangor aren't truly worth the points. At 20 for 360, however, I think they're positioned about right.

I don't think they make sense as a unit that you take to fill out battleline - as you've said, that's what Acolytes are for. However, they are a unit that you can build an army around that also happens to take up one of your battleline slots. Yes, they need babysitting by a Tzaangor Shaman, but they offer a good return on that investment.

Being able to run and charge, they're ideally situated to score the +1 attacks agenda in your first turn. After that point, they become a meatgrinder that your opponent won't shift particularly quickly.

I ran mine as part of Cult of the Transient Form with a Tzaangor Shaman general. They want to be within 12" of a Shaman anyway, which means you're getting a lot of utility out of that setup: +1 to wound from their ability, +2 bravery from the mandatory command trait, and the chance to add new models to the unit every turn from the Shaman's spell. They killed a unit of Ungor, a Cygor and a Ghorgon in the first couple of turns and then broke through to the enemy's backfield objective with 11 models remaining (including 2 new Tzaangor added by the Shaman's spell.)

I agree that they have too many attack profiles - although this issue is lessened when you're only activating one unit of Tzaangor per combat phase. As I say - I'd never run them in groups of 10 to fill out battleline. As a horde, though, I love them.

 

[MattyP]

So....list building w/ new tome. Unfortunately the "Rule of Cool" means that i want to take way too much stuff...lol...and finding a list that i like is tricky (though i haven't played any lists with new tome yet). Been playing around with some ideas and curious on what the group thinks.

This is the current list i'm thinking of....thoughts/feedback very welcome

Eternal Conflagration

-Loc

-Changeling

-Changecaster

-Fateskimmer, herlad on chariot

--20 pinks

--6 Flamers

--6 Flamers

--Exalted Flamer

---Changehost Battalion

-Tome of Eyes ES

-Burning Sigil ES

----1990 pts in total

[CJPT]

6 minutes ago, MattyP said:

This is the current list i'm thinking of....thoughts/feedback very welcome

Eternal Conflagration

-Loc

-Changeling

-Changecaster

-Fateskimmer, herlad on chariot

--20 pinks

--6 Flamers

--6 Flamers

--Exalted Flamer

---Changehost Battalion

-Tome of Eyes ES

-Burning Sigil ES

----1990 pts in total

You don't have enough units for the Changehost - I'd suggest splitting the pinks into two units of 10!

[Forrix]

On the Tzaangor note,  I haven't ran them yet but I'm building a unit of 20. With 2 in 5 having greatblades so 8 in the unit, then there are mutants and the twistbray. It almost feels pointless to give them dual swords as none of the front rank will actually consist of regular Tzaangors.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Forrix

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Sumanye said:

 All of the following assumes a 10 man tzaangor squad.

I didn’t bother reading the rest of your post because it has always been a terrible idea to run a 10 man Tzaangor squad.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Forrix said:

On the Tzaangor note,  I haven't ran them yet but I'm building a unit of 20. With 2 in 5 having greatblades that 8 in the unit, then there are mutants and the twistbray. It almost feels pointless to give them dual swords as none of the front rank will actually consist of regular Tzaangors.

Yep, that has been my experience. I’ve run 20 Tzaangors in all but about 3 of my Tzeentch games and I don’t believe I’ve ever been able to get more than 3 grunts into combat.

[Sumanye]

53 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I didn’t bother reading the rest of your post because it has always been a terrible idea to run a 10 man Tzaangor squad.

I've won many a game with a 10 man squad of tzaangors, especially in lower point games, so strongly disagree.  If anything, before this battle tome running a 20 man is a terrible choice because you get the point/dmg efficiency of a 10 or the point discount on a 30.  

 

Appreciate the suggestions about 20 man tzaangors from @CJPT and @Forrix.  I think I will give a 20 man Tzaangor list a try and leave the shield guys in the back.  My gut feeling is that I'd probably be better off just investing in enlightened with acolytes filling battleline, but as I said, I really love tzaangors and I spent a lot of time painting them.

[decker_cky]

3 hours ago, Sumanye said:

I have to say, as a big tzaangor fan, I'm seeing little reason to run them anymore.  All of the following assumes a 10 man tzaangor squad.  Here is what we have to deal with.

They need a wizard to babysit them or their damage falls significantly, if they take 4 wounds their damage almost drops in half, if you give them shields they lose a lot of punch and get little in return (about 1.3 saved wounds by the time shield bearers are dead, less than 1 Tzaangor), if you have shields and your twist bray wields a savage great blade (which he absolutely should) you need to make 5 separate attack rolls for each combat (2 paired mutants,1 twist, 4 shield, 3 great blades, and beaks ), you now must allocate wounds to shields even if you didn't want to meaning they are a potential liability for breaking unit coherency, and there is basically nothing in the book that synergies with them in a meaningful way (+1 attack agenda is probably better spent on enlightened).  They are just a real chore to fight with and the benefits are small.  The only thing they really have going for them is run and charge for a once per game sucker punch on an objective.  But even then, with the destiny dice nerf, you probably want to save your huge destiny dice charges for enlightened.

20 Kairic Acolytes for 20 points more seems strictly better.  If they get to shoot and fight they actually do more damage even without battalion or pyrofane buffs, a sizable portion of their damage is shooting, they can generate fate points, their damage scales linearly with models unlike tzaangors, they don't lose much by taking shields, they are better on objectives, and most importantly imo, they are totally autonomous and do not need a babysitter.  

I think most of these issues could be improved by dropping them to 160pts, but it's a real shame they didn't clean up the war scroll.  No opponent should be forced to watch you make 5 separate dice rolls for a battle line unit, it's just such a waste of time.  I'm not sure why they can't just call all weapons savage blades and just give them 3+ hit, 3 + wound and 3 attacks each and rend -1 damage 1.  It's essentially equivalent damage wise to what they have now at 10 man vs. a 4+ save, but all the dice can be rolled at once and they have a profile that degrades linearly.  I think that's good for 180 pt battleline that has a 5+ save and a 32 mm base with 1" weapons, but tzaangors should be good, they don't get any help anywhere else.

What are your thoughts on tzaangors?

20 man block of tzaangors backed by a fatemaster (granting +1 to wound and rerolls to hit), being force-fed the +1 attack agenda, is money.

I don't think 10 or 30 man tzaangor blocks are worth considering right now. 

[MattyP]

3 hours ago, CJPT said:

You don't have enough units for the Changehost - I'd suggest splitting the pinks into two units of 10!

Altered the list based on what i currently own....planing to get more flamers and an exalted flamer.  

Eternal Conflagration

-Loc

-Changeling

-Changecaster

-Fateskimmer, herlad on chariot

-Blue Scribes

--10 pinks

--10 pinks

--3 Flamers

--6 Screamers

--Burning Chariot

---Changehost Battalion

-Tome of Eyes ES

-Burning Sigil ES

-Balewind Vortex

----2000

[Wilhelm Stürmer]

On 1/12/2020 at 12:16 PM, The_Dudemeister said:

Doesn't really matter. Here you can see the average damage of all three weapon options + Staff of Tzeentch. So even for the Rod we'd be in close combat, otherwise by itself it only does 2 damage on 4+ and 5+ save targets.

In comparison 3 Flamers (also including melee) in the Eternal Conflagration on the worst profile. So no hit bonus from Exalteds or for unit size.

@The_Dudemeister Just curious how you created the tables and the math/formula/app behind it.

[The_Dudemeister]

25 minutes ago, Wilhelm Stürmer said:

@The_Dudemeister Just curious how you created the tables and the math/formula/app behind it.

This amazing tool was created by one of our forum members. 👌

[Gwendar]

On 1/11/2020 at 12:55 PM, Acid_Nine said:

Yea this was the list I was concerned about, and yes this is a major issue of balance from what myself and at least two other people in my game store has thought about.  This is the kind of list that could just kill the game from what I have seen, and kinda makes me pessimistic for AoS.

Kinda makes me wonder how this made it past the play testers. Everything in the book seems at least passable, but this seems like the sky is actually falling.

Just to touch back on this, I've been looking through it again and working out scenarios with a friend (Seraphon player) and I do really wonder how it can be dealt with.

From my point of view as a Skaven player, I could easily shoot off the LoC\Flamers with 6 Fiends and 9 Jezzails but.. the issues with that are:

1. Changehost is a 1-drop, dictating a large part of how the game can go.
2. Changehost allows 2 units (so let's say 12 Flamers + 1 Exalted) to target anything T1 and delete that unit.

Of course there are other shooting based armies using Bridge or that deploy from the board edge or drop down in the same way (Shootcast). Given the deployment ranges on most Battleplans, getting the chance to hide\outrange these things would be difficult and even Longstrikes\Ballistas aren't equaling the same output on average despite having the same\better range. Sure, afterwards that Flamer unit is likely dead if it gets that close but I guess that really depends on what it's wiped off the board. It's also unlikely they'll have the +1 wound aura which cuts damage a bit. Alternatively, they can just go 2nd and potentially get 2 turns worth of this shooting out. Again, not to say other armies can't do this same thing, but the ease and reliability that a 1-drop Changehost can do it at is what seems to have everyone worried.

I don't know, I don't see it being any more ridiculous than other things that have been introduced recently, so I don't want to sound hypocritical as I play OBR as well and I know it has it's own issues. I do forsee this being a big player in the competitive scene and I don't want to say it's overtuned or anything until more time has been spent at the table and not just theorycrafting. If it does turn out to be overtuned, I'm not sure how it could be changed. One potential solution we came up with was to give them a modified version of Seraphons old teleport: Pick 2 units, roll a dice for each. On a 4+ it can teleport more than 9" away from any units, 3 or less it does nothing but can still act as normal (move, shoot, etc). This would potentially mitigate it a bit.. but can't think of any other worthwhile solutions just yet. Anyway.. curious to hear others thoughts.

[Nizrah]

.

Edited January 13, 2020 by Nizrah

[RoloMcFury]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Just to touch back on this, I've been looking through it again and working out scenarios with a friend (Seraphon player) and I do really wonder how it can be dealt with.

From my point of view as a Skaven player, I could easily shoot off the LoC\Flamers with 6 Fiends and 9 Jezzails but.. the issues with that are:

1. Changehost is a 1-drop, dictating a large part of how the game can go.
2. Changehost allows 2 units (so let's say 12 Flamers + 1 Exalted) to target anything T1 and delete that unit.

Of course there are other shooting based armies using Bridge or that deploy from the board edge or drop down in the same way (Shootcast). Given the deployment ranges on most Battleplans, getting the chance to hide\outrange these things would be difficult and even Longstrikes\Ballistas aren't equaling the same output on average despite having the same\better range. Sure, afterwards that Flamer unit is likely dead if it gets that close but I guess that really depends on what it's wiped off the board. It's also unlikely they'll have the +1 wound aura which cuts damage a bit. Alternatively, they can just go 2nd and potentially get 2 turns worth of this shooting out. Again, not to say other armies can't do this same thing, but the ease and reliability that a 1-drop Changehost can do it at is what seems to have everyone worried.

I don't know, I don't see it being any more ridiculous than other things that have been introduced recently, so I don't want to sound hypocritical as I play OBR as well and I know it has it's own issues. I do forsee this being a big player in the competitive scene and I don't want to say it's overtuned or anything until more time has been spent at the table and not just theorycrafting. If it does turn out to be overtuned, I'm not sure how it could be changed. One potential solution we came up with was to give them a modified version of Seraphons old teleport: Pick 2 units, roll a dice for each. On a 4+ it can teleport more than 9" away from any units, 3 or less it does nothing but can still act as normal (move, shoot, etc). This would potentially mitigate it a bit.. but can't think of any other worthwhile solutions just yet. Anyway.. curious to hear others thoughts.

The Flamers have powerful shooting, but at least there's some counterplay against them. They're the definition of a glass hammer, with 6 wounds per 120 points, at a 5+ save. They'll crumple to any dedicated shooting/melee unit, even at -1 to be hit. Furthermore, they require the Exalted Flamer to operate at full capacity (except against 20+ size squads). 

The more subtle issue from Changehost, IMO, comes from the Pink Horrors.  A block of 20 is 400 points, has an utterly insane 100 wounds- 20 with 6+ ignore wound, potentially with 5+ save (just gotta kill a 9W unit during T1), -1 to hit in both melee AND shooting (Locus + Command trait). Obviously you gotta save CPs to ignore morale on them, but I can't think of a more effective use anyway. That's not even mentioning that they have extremely solid shooting as well. It's tough to grasp just how over-the-top this unit is until you see it in action. 

Changehost without any of the following would still be good, but the combination will be just brutal:

-The locus. Permanent -1 to be hit in melee is just nasty. Combo this with the -1 to hit command trait for Eternal Conflag and you're always -1 to be hit near the general. 

-Much more effective shooting than previous iterations, from both Flamers and Horrors. This gives you way more play against lists that strong anti-magic measures, like Fyreslayers or Khorne. Yes, some armies have more dangerous shooting, but they don't have everything else on this list..

-The Changehost teleport somehow becoming MORE powerful, making it extremely difficult for your opponent to escape. Someone mentioned the limited range of buffs, but as I explained previously, the LoC brings both buffs and can reach at least 13 (17-18) + 9 inches with that buff on turn 1 if you really need it. Your opponent will literally need to huddle in a corner to fully avoid it (assuming they fit) and in that case... just make them go first and waste a turn doing nothing while you have a shot at a double. 

-Pink Horrors having 5 effective wounds each. This can be used to pin your opponent back in the early game in a major way. 

-We still have strong magic. LoC + Spellportal is still 6 average MW getting blasted 39" away turn 1. Changeling (a must in Changehost) can redeploy in 2/3 of the missions and fire off a couple of nasty spells (use fate dice on Geminds, since the -1 to hit stacks with Locus). 

-A LoC still dominates the opponent's magic phase. A couple of decent fate dice, or just average luck, will be shutting down your opponent's most important spells every turn.

-1 drop battalion. These have gotten more rare over time, particularly with powerful abilities attached to them. You can dictate who goes first and either alpha strike or make your opponent durdle around for a turn then go for a double. 

Yes, some armies do have counterplay against this. Someone mentioned Deepkin in that regard. However, only a few armies/builds having any real agency/options against a build make it pretty oppressive. All in all, I'm concerned. 

[Gwendar]

13 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

All in all, I'm concerned. 

Yeah, pretty much the same points I was trying to make but you articulated them a bit better 😅

Like I said, I'll see where it goes but as it stands I don't see how I could really play against it either with OBR (even if I brought a Crawler, that's easily shut down by a Changeling and devoting resources to guard it isn't worth the board coverage I would lose) or Skaven as I would rely on the Bridge that may fail\be unbound.. that said, the Horrors would be slightly easier to deal with if I didn't have to worry about Flamers. But looking at average damage combined with them having a CP on tap to negate BS would mean it would take far too long for them to be removed from an objective.

Ah well.. I'm building into these types of lists myself so I'll be able to experience it from both points of view.

[newsun]

Just like 40k much of this can be mitigated somewhat with los blocking terrain and generally more. 4-5th Ed 40k had same issue with t1 shooting people off the board. Though it does still look super strong.

 

On a side note what do people think about 9 enlightened on disc? The 120 price increase since I last played has me dismayed.

Edited January 13, 2020 by newsun

[Sumanye]

15 minutes ago, newsun said:

Just like 40k much of this can be mitigated somewhat with los blocking terrain and generally more. 4-5th Ed 40k had same issue with t1 sitting people off the board. Though it does still look super strong.

 

On a side note what do people think about 9 enlightened on disc? The 120 price increase since I last played has me dismayed.

I think enlightened at 180 is fair.  They were way too cheap at 140 and still a bargain at 160.  It's true they are weaker with the loss of daemon keyword, but I think that has been more than made up for in other areas of the book.  I've only had a chance to play one game with the new book, but I was very happy with enlightened and arcane suggestion.

[mmimzie]

33 minutes ago, newsun said:

Just like 40k much of this can be mitigated somewhat with los blocking terrain and generally more. 4-5th Ed 40k had same issue with t1 sitting people off the board. Though it does still look super strong.

 

On a side note what do people think about 9 enlightened on disc? The 120 price increase since I last played has me dismayed.

More terrain in aos tends to make the game bar for everyone you lose a lot of melee effectiveness if you have the really crowded tables and house ruling 40k requires to be playable.

 

@Gwendar I think the flamers are quite strong. If they are too strong it's a nerf to flamers that is required and not needing all of change host.  I'd much sooner see flamers removed from change host as horrors are quite fine in change host.

 

That said I don't quite see flamers as particularly over powered. They have great shooting but they are glass. 30 sisters of the watch with nomad prince buff against any unit of any size can put out the exact damage out as 12 flamers hitting and wounding on 2s for the points.  The sisters of the watch can use the living cities paths to appear from board edges so movement is more restricted, but they don't have to take a battalion and have a few more wounds for the points 

 

Flamers seem quite good, but they also feel fair enough.  It's not much worse than stuff cities can do and the most extreme part is that it's a one drop.

 

I think if a nerf is in need for flamers I'd drop them from change host or make them 12" range.  As +20-30pts would make them worse than sisters or the watch.

[Sumanye]

It's very hard to imagine Changehost gets away without a huge nerf.  That ability is so strong it's basically an entire allegiance ability and command trait choice for another army AND it gives your army a 1-drop.  Flamers are good but not broken imo, though I doubt they needed the points reduction in addition to all the nice perks they received.  

[Grotruk]

Surprised there is no range for the teleport and no range from the LOC needed.

This is so far better than the old 2 units switch (wich was already strong)