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AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion


Gaz Taylor

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3 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'm stupid and hoped to deduct by now what exactly a drop is but could someone help me out? 

A 'drop' refers to how many units you have to place down during setup. Remember, whoever finishes setup first gets to decide who has 1st turn... each of those units is referred to as a 'drop'.

The thing of note is that units in a battalion can all be placed in as few\many 'drops' as you want within that battalion. Changehost being my entire army means they can all be placed in a single 'drop' or just 1 less than my opponent (if I want to bait out where they're placing stuff) which means I would be deciding who goes 1st.

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3 minutes ago, MitGas said:

I'm stupid and hoped to deduct by now what exactly a drop is but could someone help me out? 

A drop is a deployment. So when people talk about number of drops, its how many deployments have to be made. Battalions can cut down the number of drops that need to be made, since you can deploy any and every unit in a battalion in any combination at one time. This is important because whoever finishes deploying first gets to pick the turn order, either to set up an alpha strike, or to choose which player will get the first double turn if it happens.

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@GeneralZero Yeah I've never met a single person who didn't want to tell me what their list was and what was contained in a battalion if I didn't already know. If they were that way about it, I would likely not play them right then and there as it would be a clear indicator of 'that guy' to me.

But yeah, as Paniere said, all tournaments I've seen\been to require each person bring copies of their lists for each opponent to see.. of course if you see a battalion and don't know what's included in it and they won't tell you well.. yeah, I guess there's that. At that point I would just look it up on 1d4chan as that's at least a reliable source of seeing what units are in a battalion.

If they want to be petty, sometimes I can't control myself and have to be petty back 😅

Edited by Gwendar
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TBH, my question (and intent) didn't mean to be "that guy" or petty boy. I simply think that there are so few elements of surprise that letting know the full list of a player at the end of deployment is not a bad idea at all. 

When you are about to fight a battle, you never really know who's in front of you until you make contact. You have to be ready for everything. Of course, after deployment you can discuss/explain/show bataillon content/show full list  etc... in a nice way. I don't know what is practiced, what is the current way of playing that. Tournament players could say more about it, about conventions. Of course, there is always some room for players agreements before the battle to have (more) fun, and being surprised can both being fun and challenging.

Edited by GeneralZero
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@GeneralZero it's pretty standard practice from my experience that tournament AoS players are cool with sharing information about their army so there's no surprises but that depends on the questions asked.. but a lot of experienced tournament players already know the meta and what to look out for.

It's always good to ask questions at the table like "do you have any deepstrikes?" or "what's the threat range (both with movement\charges or shooting) of your units?" etc.. I've yet to find anyone who doesn't want to tell me anything. If they do then it's fine to pre-measure and figure it out yourself. That's really all I meant about being 'petty', not saying anyone was in particular 😉

Basically... yeah, it's generally encouraged to ask questions and figure out how their list works and how many drops they have.. nothing saying they can't.

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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

 I really like @BillyOcean's Pyrofane list and it would still fulfill the shooting\magic aspects I would like to retain while also having a CC presence.. which, honestly it's great to have all your bases covered if you can. 5-drops isn't bad either currently, I'd say 3-5 is about the average? But a lot of armies (like Skaven or CoS) sit at the 7-10 mark.

Yeah, thats what I'm thinking. 5 out-drops those armies who don't use a battalion (Skaven and CoS), and is in the mix against against other armies that can fit about half their units into a useful battalion (FEC, Slaanesh, OBR, etc). It obviously loses choice to armies that have the big boy battalions.

With that in mind, the list is designed to be able to captitalize on having choice, but not care too much if I don't have it. If an opponent chooses to go first and claim objectives , they will have to come into Acolyte shooting range, and between that and Enlightened combat punch I should be able to bludgeon them off over a couple of turns (although I should run the numbers against 2x20 Hearthguard). If an opponent chooses to go second, then I should still be able to have a meaningful first turn in which LoC snipes a support character (spell portal is critical), I rack up 7-8 fate points to set up a turn 2 summon, and the summoned pinks plus 2x10 acolytes form screens to prepare for potentially being doubled. As long as my 30 Acolytes, 6 Enlightened, and characters survive into turn 2 then i still like my chances. 

The main thing to be careful of is armies that will go first and try to snipe the Gaunt Summoner before he completes his summon. That would just be a colossal waste of points, so it may be necessary to back-edge him at times just summon the pinks in a less favorable spot. Perhaps its even worth given him the second artefact, something like Gryph Feather Charm so he can be -2 to shoot with Look Out Sir.

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7 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

and try to snipe the Gaunt Summoner before he completes his summon. That would just be a colossal waste of points

Well, I'd say it is close to auto-loose not only because you loose 240/260 pts but you loose a big screen (pink 200pts/50wounds). That means that you don't/won't have enough body to screen your wizards and win objectives. Gaunt MUST be protected at all cost before first summon.

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22 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Gaunt MUST be protected at all cost before first summon.

Indeed. This is why I prefer the Gaunt on foot rather than disc, despite losing mobility. In my local scene and tournaments, all forests are played with the Wyldwood rule where you don't have line of sight if the line passes through 1" of a forest, unless either model can fly. Not sure if thats how that forests are generally played by everyone? But then I can just put the Gaunt in a forest if one is available, and he's pretty safe. Turn 1 he'll just be summoning and throwing out the Sigil or other endless spell anyway, so he doesn't need line of sight to anything himself.

Edited by BillyOcean
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45 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

With that in mind, the list is designed to be able to captitalize on having choice, but not care too much if I don't have it.

I try to write all of my lists this way if possible.. my Magic-based Skaven list works the same way and OBR by default tend to work this way. Having anything between 1-5 drops is what will help you win the deployment game which is such an overlooked part of the competitive side of this game for a lot of people. Being deceptive (but not dishonest) and countering\reading your opponent in the deployment phase is such a huge deal. I just finished watching Rob and Darrens talk on deployment and it's super insightful to any competitively minded people who want some good info\examples: 



The more I look at your list the more I want to go with something similar over the Conflag list I'm working on.. good thing tax season is here 😉

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Going in my first battle with the new battletome.

Small meeting engagement (750 pts) will also go with 1250 and 2000 points battle soon.

 

Host: The Eternal Conflagration

Gaunt Summoner (240) with Trait: Nexus of Fate &  Artefact: Aura of Mutability

Herald Tzeentch on foot (110)

Pink Horror (200)

Kairic accolytes (2x100)

Total: 750

 

Will try out soon the flamers and such very soon.

 

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8 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah, I’m thinking about that too. 3 Auto unbinds a game is sooooo nice. I’ve recently began to realize that unbinds are probably the most effective use of Destiny Dice when opponents brought strong wizards.

I actually really like Host Arcanum. A free unit of Screamers is also cool! But didn't one of the youtube reviewers mention that 2d6 rolls now require two destiny dice? Is that how destiny dice work now?

If thats the case, then my Destiny dice will go quick. I use most of mine on charges and casts :(

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On 1/9/2020 at 5:12 PM, Jackroks981 said:

I don’t believe it was done away with. Since 2.0 abilities that “add” can take units above their starting size, it’s only “return” abilities that prevents you from going over the starting size. 

Could we potentially get some clarity on this? It'd be good to know if Kairic Acolytes in a Transient Form list could potentially take a nearby unit of Tzaangor above its starting size when they die (as models are being added to that unit, not returned.)

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8 minutes ago, CJPT said:

Could we potentially get some clarity on this? It'd be good to know if Kairic Acolytes in a Transient Form list could potentially take a nearby unit of Tzaangor above its starting size when they die (as models are being added to that unit, not returned.)

Well I guess just take a look through the rules and see if it says units are capped. As far as I know there's no limit to adding models. The only time that mattered was back when summoning cost points and you couldn't go past the original size without paying for it.

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A few pages back, it was discussed that a LoC could not cast an endless spell and then dispel it in the same hero phase by comparison to the NH banshee ruling.  However, the banshee rules say "dispel in the same manner as a wizard", i.e. must be at the start of a turn because that is when wizards dispel.  However, the LoC ability says no such thing, it just says the endless spell is dispelled.  I think you can in fact use the LoC ability any time in your hero phase.

Edited by Sumanye
clarification
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1 minute ago, Mr_Caterin said:

One question: if I take a std unit with a tzeencht mark to put it into, it is an army of dot that unit counts as if it were a dot or ally std in order to benefit from the faction skills of tzeencht disciples

DoT is just the name of the book. The allegiance runs off the Tzeentch keyword. Anything with the Tzeentch keyword can be taken and not count as an ally.

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Is anyone else a little concerned about the power level of the Changehost, combined with how much more effective the shooting is? It makes for a really dirty 1 drop/alpha strike list that just takes all the control of the game away from your opponent. Here's a sample list (probably not optimized):

Infernal Conflagration

LoC 3- -1 to be hit wholly within 12 at range, +1 to wound wholly within 9
Changeling 
Herald of Tzeentch - required crappy artifact 
x20 Pink Horrors 
x9 Flamers of Tzeentch 
x3 Flamers of Tzeentch 
Exalted Flamer 
x10 Brimstone Horrors
x10 Brimstone Horrors 
Geminids
Balewind

Changehost

So, on turn 1 (if the alpha strike is worth it), you're looking at:

x60 Horror shots- 3+/3+/-1/1 dmg (17.77 wounds against 4+ save). Additionally, you can probably complete the Overthrow Leaders agenda to make them permanently 5+ save for the rest of the game. 100 wounds at 5+ with -1 to hit in melee and shooting... ugh.

x28 Flamer shots- 3+/2+/-1/d3 dmg (20.73 wounds against 4+ save) (even more against 10+ size squads)

If map allows it, Changeling within range to unleash Geminids + a lore spell (lot of wounds here, along with -1 to hits, which will stack with the Locus

If your opponent deployed to allow it, the Herald of Tzeentch can Balewind up and fire off Pink Fire + Bolt of Tzeentch. 

If your opponent deployed to allow it, the other Flamers + Exalted may also be in range.

 

So at the end of turn 1, your opponent will have lost about a quarter of their army, have 100 wounds in front of them to be dealt with, with their most dangerous threats at -2 to hit them. Seems reallllly nasty. They could try to deploy to out-range you, but the range is pretty drastic (13" inch move from the LoC, + 9" for +1 wound relic + 18" shooting = 40" from your LoC. Can even use Fate dice/CP to make the LoC move even further guaranteed. )

Does any of that sound like an issue for game balance to anyone else?

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1 hour ago, Sumanye said:

A few pages back, it was discussed that a LoC could not cast an endless spell and then dispel it in the same hero phase by comparison to the NH banshee ruling.  However, the banshee rules say "dispel in the same manner as a wizard", i.e. must be at the start of a turn because that is when wizards dispel.  However, the LoC ability says no such thing, it just says the endless spell is dispelled.  I think you can in fact use the LoC ability any time in your hero phase.

The more I think about the details of the wording, the more I'm inclined to agree with you. Heres the way I see it:

Under "Unbinding and Dispelling" in the Endless Spells rules, there are three paragraphs. Paragraph 1 lists the restrictions for attempting to dispel (beginning of hero phase, once per wizard, loses a casting attempt). Paragraph 2 gives the mechanics for attempting the dispel (30" range, beat the casting value). Paragraph 3 says what happens if the dispel is successful (remove the model, can cast it again later). 

The LoC's ability allows him to "Pick an Endless spell". This sentence is nothing to do with making a dispel attempt, so needn't follow any of the restrictions for making such an attempt. Once he's picked it, the spell is dispelled. So, now the only one of the three paragraphs that is relevant is the one concerning what happens when a spell is dispelled - the model is removed and can be used again later. 

So, by the wording I'd argue that he can do it any point in the hero phase, seeing as there doesn't seem to be any point where the restrictions on making a dispel attempt would get triggered. But I'd probably prefer an FAQ clearing it up so I don't need to argue it through with opponents at the tournament table.

Edited by BillyOcean
clarity
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1 minute ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I find it incredible at what length some people go to bend the rules in their favor. Hopefully you at least ask your opponents if you can use it like that.

To be clear I'm simply trying to logic through how the rule might be intended. In a competitive game, I'd state my interpretation before the game began and if my opponent doesn't agree I'd be happy to play it the more restrictive way, especially seeing as the Myrmourn ruling is the closest thing we  have to a clarification right now (although there are some differences). But if GW did intend it the less restrictive way, I'd simply like a FAQ stating as much, so it doesn't look like I'm trying to twist the rules to my advantage when I ask my opponent about it.

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10 minutes ago, The_Dudemeister said:

I find it incredible at what length some people go to bend the rules in their favor. Hopefully you at least ask your opponents if you can use it like that.

Special abilities of heroes are designed to bend the rules. That's the entire point. 

I agree that the LoC can use his ability at any point in the hero phase, because it's not a normal unbind. It's a special ability that turns off endless spells.

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7 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

A drop is a deployment. So when people talk about number of drops, its how many deployments have to be made. Battalions can cut down the number of drops that need to be made, since you can deploy any and every unit in a battalion in any combination at one time. This is important because whoever finishes deploying first gets to pick the turn order, either to set up an alpha strike, or to choose which player will get the first double turn if it happens.

 

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

A 'drop' refers to how many units you have to place down during setup. Remember, whoever finishes setup first gets to decide who has 1st turn... each of those units is referred to as a 'drop'.

The thing of note is that units in a battalion can all be placed in as few\many 'drops' as you want within that battalion. Changehost being my entire army means they can all be placed in a single 'drop' or just 1 less than my opponent (if I want to bait out where they're placing stuff) which means I would be deciding who goes 1st.

Thank you guys very much for this - I figured it must be something like that but still wasn't sure. You also helped me with the hint for the battalions. Once again, thank you! :)

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