AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grotruk]

You forgot we have to make our minis

Seriously, they are needed in Wytchfire coven (but is this build "worth" ..?)

[mmimzie]

2 hours ago, GeneralZero said:

Remember that horrors don't do much, they are super glass canon. They are here to slow enemy or keep control of an objective but they are not really efficient after that. And they are so slow.

They are the opposite of glass cannon. 50 wounds for 200pts is really durable mind you. 

 

That durable to point is like sequitors reroll saves and clanrats base. So they are well worth it and even at min size squads can potentially survive some powerful charges as long as you have battle shock protections. This durability can be buffed with access to a few -1 to hit buffs.

 

Damage output wise they are Abit lower than some and I wouldn't call them a can. They can be buffed alot to make them quite decent, but they aren't at the level of hand gunners and such for Thier points.

 

As for slow this is list dependent. As a ranged unit they can make great use of the bridge and in a powerful magic army bridge is very reliable, and the bridge can be used to protect  said Pink's behind it or to help block charges if placed right. Alternatively one can use change host to move them around.

 

This said while they are quite cost effective for tier job, they have a high base price meaning full squads will take a decent and they quickly become and investment, and not something you add as an after thought.

 

Lastly, using destiny dice to protect Pink's from heavy battleshock loss isn't really an option as Pink's die first and thus your banner dies after 10 wounds. Meaning you loose your banner quite quick under any really pressure, and with it the protection destiny dice rolls of one provide your horror squads.  This is the real down side as battleshock immunity will be very important to them, and having cp I'm the bank to protect them will matter. 

 

For this reason I think guild of summoners is quite good. While you lose your damage buffs fr eternal conflagration and the extra -1 to hit. You gave battle shock immunity and bonus cp which is the real benefit from taking the coven. While summoning cheap LoC is quite a decent buff/trade off.

 

Pinks outside of the guild should really consider vortemis to run along side your Pink's as he can generate CP for ignoring battleshock on his own and now has a reduced price tag.

Edited January 8, 2020 by mmimzie

[BillyOcean]

4 hours ago, CJPT said:

Am I missing something?

Not as far as I'm concerned. I know some people like them to stand behind chaff walls to provide a little punch-back when the line gets hit. But losing the mobility to apply damage where and when its needed makes them lackluster in my opinion. Too bad we need them in Witchfyre because  I had been running that battalion in the old book with disc Enlightened and really enjoying it. The extra tax of foot Enlightened makes it unappealing now. Theres no point submitting a FAQ about it right? You all think the intention is pretty clear that it has to be foot Enlightened?

[AverageBoss]

56 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

Not as far as I'm concerned. I know some people like them to stand behind chaff walls to provide a little punch-back when the line gets hit. But losing the mobility to apply damage where and when its needed makes them lackluster in my opinion. Too bad we need them in Witchfyre because  I had been running that battalion in the old book with disc Enlightened and really enjoying it. The extra tax of foot Enlightened makes it unappealing now. Theres no point submitting a FAQ about it right? You all think the intention is pretty clear that it has to be foot Enlightened?

It says Tzaangor Enlightened. Tzaangor Enlightened (on disks of Tzeentch) are still Tzaangor Enlightened. Just as both Prosecutors counted in the older Stromcast battalion that only required Prosecutors, and the current Vanguard Justicar Conclave accepts either version of Vanguard Raptor. The subtext on a units name is just that, subtext.

[kenshin620]

If the word is Bolded, it's the Keyword. If it's unbolded, it's the exact unit entry.

As an example, Spoilpox Scrivener affects only the Plaguebearers, not Plaguebearer (keyword).

 

On a side note how the heck does the Fatemaster still exist. It amazes me that 2 of the 4 God Mounted Chaos Lords still exist in 2020.

[Satyrical Sophist]

1 minute ago, kenshin620 said:

If the word is Bolded, it's the Keyword. If it's unbolded, it's the exact unit entry.

As an example, Spoilpox Scrivener affects only the Plaguebearers, not Plaguebearer (keyword).

 

On a side note how the heck does the Fatemaster still exist. It amazes me that 2 of the 4 God Mounted Chaos Lords still exist in 2020.

They even gave him new rules. How many points is he now? The command ability gives rerolls to hit to tzeentch wholly within 9 of him. He might be worth it in some cases now.

[AverageBoss]

23 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

If the word is Bolded, it's the Keyword. If it's unbolded, it's the exact unit entry.

As an example, Spoilpox Scrivener affects only the Plaguebearers, not Plaguebearer (keyword).

 

On a side note how the heck does the Fatemaster still exist. It amazes me that 2 of the 4 God Mounted Chaos Lords still exist in 2020.

Again though, subtext on a units name is not the units name itself. Even though unbolded,  both Enlightened units are eligible due to past precedent on this matter.

Edited January 9, 2020 by AverageBoss

[AverageBoss]

The chainguard is yet another battalion in the same vein, stating Guardian of Soul, unbolded. And I know there are others.

[AverageBoss]

And I actually just found the rule on page 240 of the brb. 2nd paragraph under Battalion Organization states to ignore sub headers unless they are specified.

[mmimzie]

Yes both enlightend units work as they have the same name with a sub title. 

 

[BillyOcean]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

And I actually just found the rule on page 240 of the brb. 2nd paragraph under Battalion Organization states to ignore sub headers unless they are specified.

Thanks so much for pointing that out! Thats a great help.

[Acid_Nine]

So I heard talk of a one drop Tzeench list that is going to be neigh unbeatable? Apparently it’s a changehost with a cartload of flamers that can melt unit’s off the board turn 1?

[AverageBoss]

I designed a for fun MSU list using the Tzeentch Daemons, BoC, and StD start collecting boxes + a box of Acolytes and a box of Tzaangors. Mortals, Arcanites, Daemons, and Beast, all in one big happy family.

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Chaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
Herald of Tzeentch (110)
Great-Bray Shaman (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Chaos Warriors (200)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
5 x Chaos Knights (180)
- Mark of Chaos: Tzeentch
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)
10 x Ungors (60)
10 x Bestigors (120)
10 x Tzaangors of Beasts of Chaos (180)
Ghorgon (160)
Phantasmagoria of Fate (200)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 138

[Gwendar]

45 minutes ago, Acid_Nine said:

So I heard talk of a one drop Tzeench list that is going to be neigh unbeatable? Apparently it’s a changehost with a cartload of flamers that can melt unit’s off the board turn 1?

Nothing is unbeatable.. but this is something I've been working on. Been considering switching things around but I'll need to experiment with some actual games and I'm sure the more experienced tournament Tzeentch players will have some very interesting things coming up. Basic premise is teleport 1 Exalted and the 9-unit of Flamers up the board T1 to (more-so with the help of the Fateskimmer's speed to potentially provide the Aura)  delete a unit. That said.. with their 27" threat range that may not be necessary, especially if you decide to go 2nd to attempt a double. Either way, you can cause some damage\teleport 2 Horror units onto objectives right away:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch

Host: The Eternal Conflagration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames (Forced trait, Daemons -1 to hit wholly within 12") 
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame (Forced artifact, 3+ W\MW reflection from melee)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fateskimmer, Herald of Tzeentch (140)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability (+1 to wound to Daemons wholly within 9")
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (200)
9 x Flamers of Tzeentch (360)
3 x Flamers of Tzeentch (120)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

 

Edited January 9, 2020 by Gwendar

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

So flamers seem a bit too strong don’t they? I know we don’t have the new tome yet but the potential damage seems a bit high for shooting. I think you can get a 2 up 2 up 1rend d3 damage on one or two units at a time

the amount of dead bonereapers intrigues me tho, I like ignoring their rerolls  

but I feel like I can’t bring them to casual games, not that I ran much daemons beforehand 

 

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

So flamers seem a bit too strong don’t they? I know we don’t have the new tome yet but the potential damage seems a bit high for shooting. I think you can get a 2 up 2 up 1rend d3 damage on one or two units at a time

the amount of dead bonereapers intrigues me tho, I like ignoring their rerolls  

but I feel like I can’t bring them to casual games, not that I ran much daemons beforehand 

 

I mean, its also only 3 models in a unit with a total of 6 wounds at a 5+ save. They are the very definition of a glass cannon. They can put out hurt, but cant take any back at all.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

1 minute ago, AverageBoss said:

I mean, its also only 3 models in a unit with a total of 6 wounds at a 5+ save. They are the very definition of a glass cannon. They can put out hurt, but cant take any back at all.

I suppose, and I guess plague monks aren’t too bad with the new warscroll so maybe it’s me being paranoid.

i do think against armies with no ability to touch the flamers it’ll be hard. I can see melee armies struggling. I’ll try them next week with the tome before I make a decision on whether to regularly use them!

my greatest fear is their threat range. 27 inches is a lot, but it is true that any army with half decent shooting or a decent teleport threat can delete them before they cause harm. So perhaps only the 1 drop lists will be op

i found my self comparing them to other dedicated shooting units like thunderers, but once you add that thunders are almost half the cost per model, have a 4 up save, and rerolls to save as a possibility with gold it’s true that other shooty units will outperform our flamers in some scenarios (particularly the ones where we don’t shoot first)

if not I’ll be happy to bring an acolyte style list to the table no issue  I love the flexibility of those acolytes! As well as the summoning points they can give in msu before casualties add up. Plus with so many birds a lot of casters will be shaking in their boots when rolling up their cast results haha!

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

On another note, can abilities that add tzaangors to units bring the unit past starting size? Other similar abilities normally state “slain models” so they wording makes me believe that you can add the tzaangors past the amount you bring

[AverageBoss]

Another unit to compare them to is skyfires. 80 points more for double the wounds. They do less damage at shooting, but have the potential for mortals and a 40" threat range! They are also fantastic melee combatants provided they get first strike.

[Cambot1231]

A little food for thought... Flamers get buffed by an Exalted flamer nearby.... The burning chariot of Tzeentch has the EXALTED FLAMERS Key word.  Would it be better to just upgrade the exalted to the burning chariot for buffing your units of flamers? The extra movement , fly over abilities, and ray bites might be worth it 

[JonnyTheKing]

 my one complaint with the Slaves to Darkness book was that I found the magic side to be unreliable and it was the one playstyle I wanted to play, the more I look at this book the more I’m tempted just to play my Slaves army as a Tzeentch allegiance, maybe with a couple Disciples of Tzeentch units sprinkled in! there’s some serious magic power in the Slaves book and with the reliability of Tzeentch I think it could be a real power house army 
I’m still really unsure with how I want to play this book, Changehost will probably be the best pick but I think there’s quite a lot of viable fun options in the book 

[Malakithe]

6 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

On another note, can abilities that add tzaangors to units bring the unit past starting size? Other similar abilities normally state “slain models” so they wording makes me believe that you can add the tzaangors past the amount you bring

No. That was done away with a long time ago. A unit of 10 Pinks can never go above 10. Now you can constantly heal them back up to full starting strength but you cant ever go ove.

[Malakithe]

Two lists I want to tinker with. A Eternal Conflag + Changehost list and then one with heavy Acolytes. The Changehost seams fairly established now but a list with good use of Acolytes is eluding me.

[Dreadmund]

Thank god to be honest. I don't think anyone really wanted to buy and paint ANOTHER set of pinks/blue/brims just in case you get lucky with fold reality.

[Smashin']

49 minutes ago, Dreadmund said:

Thank god to be honest. I don't think anyone really wanted to buy and paint ANOTHER set of pinks/blue/brims just in case you get lucky with fold reality.

Well consider this: 8 out of 10 pinks die summoning forth 16 blues, you use a destiny dice or roll a lucky 1 on the battleshock to bring some back and later risk the spell to bring more back, now you are forced to kill off the pinks first which will put you over the expected 20 blues. (no limit on the blues you create from splitting that I can see)

So it's probably worth having the extra, you can of course just opt for the 5+ roll to deal 1 mortal wound to an enemy unit but why? it's so bad... add 4 more wounds to your tarpit instead. *GW rubbing it's hands together* "Just as planned"