AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Hebroseph]

How important do you think it is for our army to have one-two drop? I'm thinking about running a barebones changehost, and then adding in some non-battalion casters but I worry about going to many drops. Changehost seems to work best when you can dictate the game via choosing the first/second turn and teleporting units to block out the enemy before they have a chance to score. 

[AverageBoss]

11 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Not everywhere uses realm spells. 

The majority of places do tough, since they are as much a part of the core game and endless spells, realm artifacts, and the double turn mechanic.

[Inquisitorsz]

13 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Not everywhere uses realm spells. 

see my post earlier. 
You don't even need realm spells. There's 6 lore spells you can cast without needing enemy targets, and mystic shield. 
That's before endless spells.
Then next turn you can use use the warscroll spell and arcane bolt if you're in range. So arguably you'd be potentially wasting 4 spell casts if you don't buy endless spells. 
But between all the horrors, acolytes, and a LOC that you may have already summoned, you're still going to be casting like 15+ spells that turn. 

having realm spells just makes it easier. 

like I said earlier though 6 Gaunts is silly, but even taking 2-4 is very strong and then you're not wasting any spells. 
In any case, it's a 40pt 2 spell caster that comes with a 200pt unit. 

[Hebroseph]

3 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

The majority of places do tough, since they are as much a part of the core game and endless spells, realm artifacts, and the double turn mechanic.

Except they are not. They are a supplement and have almost no bearing on match play games. I play in a huge meta (Houston Tx) and travel across the state attending GT's and realm spells arnt used at any of them. 

[Hebroseph]

Just now, Inquisitorsz said:

see my post earlier. 
You don't even need realm spells. There's 6 lore spells you can cast without needing enemy targets, and mystic shield. 
That's before endless spells.
Then next turn you can use use the warscroll spell and arcane bolt if you're in range. So arguably you'd be potentially wasting 4 spell casts if you don't buy endless spells. 
But between all the horrors, acolytes, and a LOC that you may have already summoned, you're still going to be casting like 15+ spells that turn. 

having realm spells just makes it easier. 

like I said earlier though 6 Gaunts is silly, but even taking 2-4 is very strong and then you're not wasting any spells. 
In any case, it's a 40pt 2 spell caster that comes with a 200pt unit. 

I agree, and I have been toying around with taking two in my change host list, but I worry about increasing the drops. 

Six seems overkill, but I'm sure some mad lad out there will do it. 

[Inquisitorsz]

7 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Except they are not. They are a supplement and have almost no bearing on match play games. I play in a huge meta (Houston Tx) and travel across the state attending GT's and realm spells arnt used at any of them. 

entirely depends on the event. 
The biggest one in the world (Cancon this month) will use all the Ghyran spells. 

This has come up in various TGA and FB threads before. Seems like the majority of tournaments use realm spells and/or realmscape features to some extent though they're often TO curated and somewhat limited.  
 

EDIT:
Seems like LVO later this month also uses the full realm spells, different realm each round. 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[Hebroseph]

Just now, Inquisitorsz said:

entirely depends on the event. 
The biggest one in the world (Cancon this month) will use all the Ghyran spells. 

This has come up in various TGA and FB threads before. Seems like the majority of tournaments use realm spells and/or realmscape features to some extent though they're often TO curated and somewhat limited.  
 

Guess its entirely timezone dependent. Fair enough, but I still wouldn't make a list that revolves around them because you can't count on using it. I played more games than I can remember, including 3 GT's and i think  9 daily tournaments in 2019, and realm spells were not allowed in a single one. I couldnt even name one spell in any of the realms. Realm artifacts are used in every one, but no features or spells. 

[Inquisitorsz]

4 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Guess its entirely timezone dependent. Fair enough, but I still wouldn't make a list that revolves around them because you can't count on using it. I played more games than I can remember, including 3 GT's and i think  9 daily tournaments in 2019, and realm spells were not allowed in a single one. I couldnt even name one spell in any of the realms. Realm artifacts are used in every one, but no features or spells. 

I don't think the list depends on it though. 
Like I said, you're really only playing 40pts for a 2 spell caster... who cares if a few of those spell casts are wasted? 
It's not like you're being "inefficient" with the points lol. 

Anyway this was more of an exercise in how absurd the rules can be. I doubt anyone is really going to go out and buy/paint 300 horrors, 6 gaunt summoners and 2-3 Lords of Change (plus whatever battleline you want to fit in). 

[AverageBoss]

I imagine both versions of the GS will get hefty price hikes in the 2020 GHB, just like the Archregent before them.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, Inquisitorsz said:

uhhh... I hate so many of these rules =(  

I only played a little bit of arcanite/tzaangors in the past. Mainly stuff I had form some cheap Silver Tower spare parts.
I think I'll stick to that and just play less competitive stuff. 
Coz these horrors and gaunt summoners are really quite NPE (negative play experience). 

Hopefully Tzaangor Coven is somewhat good, though that battalion is like 1300pts alone. 

I’m sure we can make a competitive list without Horrors and Gaunts. Like I’ve been saying; they are a weaker unit than what we used to have.

The changes to Gaunt Summoners and Pinks benefits the other Chaos factions allying them in a lot more than they benefit us.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Hebroseph]

3 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

I’m sure we can make a competitive list without Horrors and Gaunts. Like I’ve been saying; they are a weaker unit than what we used to have.

The changes to Gaunt Summoners and Pinks benefits the other Chaos factions allying them in a lot more than they benefit us.

I think there is some game to a pyrofane cult for sure. I don't know if i like the tranisent host as much, but Acolytes got way better this edition. 

[decker_cky]

 

33 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

You don't even need realm spells. There's 6 lore spells you can cast without needing enemy targets, and mystic shield. 

Note: You can cast any spell without enemy targets. Checking for targets is something that happens after a spell is cast and not dispelled. 

[decker_cky]

3 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

I guess the one weakness is that you're going to have a lot of drops so you're never getting to pick who goes first. And I guess against some lists your Gaunts could get shot first turn... But still. 

1 gaunt summoner on disc (260)

5 gaunt summoners (1200)

3x5 chaos warriors (300)

1 slaves to darkness chaos spawn (50)

Fatesworn warband (180)

Total 1990

 

Now you have it as a single drop to avoid getting alpha'd. Unfortunately, your army doesn't actually do much. 

[Inquisitorsz]

14 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

 

Note: You can cast any spell without enemy targets. Checking for targets is something that happens after a spell is cast and not dispelled. 

Good point, never really thought about that. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

53 minutes ago, Hebroseph said:

Except they are not. They are a supplement and have almost no bearing on match play games. I play in a huge meta (Houston Tx) and travel across the state attending GT's and realm spells arnt used at any of them. 

Pg 70 of GHB 2019 states they are the assumption in matched play tournaments unless otherwise specified in the tournament package.

They are in the same rules entry that lets people use Malign Protents Realm artifacts that are regular inclusions in matches play.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Inquisitorsz]

6 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

1 gaunt summoner on disc (260)

5 gaunt summoners (1200)

3x5 chaos warriors (300)

1 slaves to darkness chaos spawn (50)

Fatesworn warband (180)

Total 1990

 

Now you have it as a single drop to avoid getting alpha'd. Unfortunately, your army doesn't actually do much. 

Lol that's actually pretty funny.
Would this still get the the DoT allegiance abilities? I guess so, although there's no DoT battleline. I assume the warriors still count as Tzeentch Battleline even though they're allies?
Would this be a DoT army or a S2D army? 
Coz then you're losing the tzeentch spells and the -1 to hit demons and the fate point summoning right? 
That being said the S2D spell lore has some nice stuff too lol. 

I guess you could swap the warriors for acolytes anyway. 

As for "doing much", the army is all about tar-pitting objectives (or the whole table) and throwing spells around. 
It doesn't really need to do much more than that. 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

6 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Would this be a DoT army or a S2D army? 

It exists in both allegiances. It lets you pick one or the other.

Id consider doing it with the Manticore Sorcerer.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[decker_cky]

Chaos Warriors are generic battleline,  everything has mark of tzeentch (nothing is an ally), and fatesworn is explicitly a tzeentch or slaves to darkness battalion, so you could choose (on your army list) whether you want to be tzeentch or slaves.  Tzeentch allegiance would be quite a bit better, though I suppose that it could be pretty funny to run that as a ravagers list. 

If you're running it as slaves to darkness, I'd probably replace two units of warriors with marauder horsemen (-20 pts), downgrade the disc summoner to foot (-20 pts) and upgrade the third unit of warriors to 20 marauders (+50 pts).

[herohammer]

I am thinking of trying this out for a hosts arcanum army

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

12 Screamers

12 Screamers

 12 Screamers

Aether Eater Host

1 extra command point

 

Its one drop, everything flies, and all the fateskimmers get to heal off of the free unbinds.

[Dreadmund]

51 minutes ago, herohammer said:

I am thinking of trying this out for a hosts arcanum army

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

Fateskimmer

12 Screamers

12 Screamers

 12 Screamers

Aether Eater Host

1 extra command point

 

Its one drop, everything flies, and all the fateskimmers get to heal off of the free unbinds.

You own 6 Fateskimmers and 36 Screamers?

[Landohammer]

Can someone clarify Skyshoal Covens battalion for me?

Does "normal move" include retreats, charges, and runs? 

Seems like it could be crazy powerful if so. Thats 4 units potentially generating D3 mortals per turn (twice if they charge!). 

Edit: I just found the FAQ. Only moves made in the movement phase are considered normal. Charges and Pile-ins are considered something separate. That makes sense. Still seems like a pretty decent battalion though.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Landohammer
Found it in FAQ

[BillyOcean]

8 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

Edit: I just found the FAQ. Only moves made in the movement phase are considered normal. Charges and Pile-ins are considered something separate. That makes sense. Still seems like a pretty decent battalion though.

It's an OK battalion I think. You'll generally be getting 2d3 mortals on a unit before charging it, assuming you attack in a double team of skyfires+enlightened to make the most of ordering and rerolls. The price tag seems a little high though, given how much the units alone will cost.

Overall, after absorbing all this information, I don't really understand the pricing of the battalions. On the Arcanite side, there are numerous battalions that fit 3-4 units, and have rules that will make close to zero impact on the game. Yet they come in at just 20-40pts less than Changehost that can fit your whole army and lets you do one of the most powerful things in the game (teleporting) twice. Confused by the logic there!

 

[decker_cky]

7 hours ago, Dreadmund said:

You own 6 Fateskimmers and 36 Screamers?

Surely that list requires 42 screamers...

[GeneralZero]

Well, the last pages of this topic have gone berserker with gaunt! lol.

I'm not sold  on gaunt spam. Remember that horrors don't do much, they are super glass canon. They are here to slow enemy or keep control of an objective but they are not really efficient after that. And they are so slow.

But, having them is a superb tool.

I'm loving big guys on the tabletop. So, I'm thinking about something very tzeentchy with magic, summon and aggressive, like a super magic battery. The idea is to get the "free" LoC (9pts) with the Guild of magicians (I don't remember the name), with already 2 of them on the table. Here the core of the list:

V1

Kairos

Lord of change

Gaunt

this is 1020pts

V2

Kairos

Lord of change

Gaunt

Gaunt

This is 1260.

The V1 is 7 spells, v2 is 9.

You can guaranties a summoned LoC turn 1 (and maybe another one 2 turns later but I'm not counting on it).

So, turn one, you can have 1 LoC + 2* 10 pink (V2) summoned (780pts) that CAN do things after turn one! A LoC+ pink is a nice fight pool and you got 3 bigs guys on the table, meanin a LOT of spells to cast everywhere.

With v2, you have 740 pts for units, this is decent to protect from alpha. In v1 you have more choice to do about units and additional wizards.

Edited January 8, 2020 by GeneralZero

[CJPT]

How do people feel about Tzaangor Enlightened on foot? I feel like they've lost out a bit in this battletome. They're helped by the fact that Enlightened on Disc got a price hike and lost the Daemon keyword, but I'm finding it hard to justify them at 100 points - particularly when compared to Kairic Acolytes, which have more utility, are battleline, and come in at the same price point.

Feels like Tzeentch has plenty of better ways to account for the last 100 or so points of a list - if you have 110-140 free you can afford a hero, and less than that gets you CPs and Endless Spells.

I feel like they needed something extra - maybe the ability to run and charge, to help them to keep up with regular Tzaangor. Or, like other elite infantry - Chosen, Wrathmongers - they could provide some kind of buff that the Disc ones don't. Or they could be conditional battleline. Without these things, I'm not sure what they're for.

Am I missing something?