AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[MattyP]

i'm working on a list: 

Eternal Conflagration

Changehost Battalion

LoC

Changeling

exalted flamer

20 pinks

6 flamers

....more pinks?

.....screamers

rest is TBD...i'd like to try Fatemaster and/or Herlad on Chariot or disc...and some endless spells. The theory being that the pinks (and maybe flamers) could be moved into enemy territory from Changehost ability and then the Changeling could appear behind them, giving them the Locus....i like that the Coven ability would give Horrors, Flamers and...i believe....Horrors on chariots the -1 rend...appreciate feedback thus far

[RoloMcFury]

13 minutes ago, MattyP said:

i'm working on a list: 

Eternal Conflagration

Changehost Battalion

LoC

Changeling

exalted flamer

20 pinks

6 flamers

....more pinks?

.....screamers

rest is TBD...i'd like to try Fatemaster and/or Herlad on Chariot or disc...and some endless spells. The theory being that the pinks (and maybe flamers) could be moved into enemy territory from Changehost ability and then the Changeling could appear behind them, giving them the Locus....i like that the Coven ability would give Horrors, Flamers and...i believe....Horrors on chariots the -1 rend...appreciate feedback thus far

Looking at something very similar myself. The temptation is to go all-out on the shooting, with 20 man pink squads and/or 12 man Flamer squads. Between being 2-drop and getting to teleport both shooty units turn 1 (can just have LoC run to catch up with them before they start shooting), your opponent doesn't really have much agency.  You just... shoot 2 units forward and unleash a disturbing amount of firepower on turn 1. 

The Fatemaster takes some of the bite out of -1 to hit penalties some armies may have. Combine this with a 200 point unit that has 50 wounds and I foresee this army causing major issues in the near future, especially in the hands of a smart player. For this reason, I think Pink Horrors may prove to be a better better than Flamers, despite the Flamers being more dangerous, because of the huge durability difference (Flamers will die to pretty much anything). 

I can't decide between the Fatemaster and the Gaunt Summoner. Both seem like must-takes, but you can't fit both and the battalion and still have some chunky shooting units. 

[Gwendar]

16 minutes ago, RoloMcFury said:

The Fatemaster takes some of the bite out of -1 to hit penalties some armies may have. Combine this with a 200 point unit that has 50 wounds and I foresee this army causing major issues in the near future, especially in the hands of a smart player. For this reason, I think Pink Horrors may prove to be a better better than Flamers, despite the Flamers being more dangerous, because of the huge durability difference (Flamers will die to pretty much anything). 

I'm trying to re-work the shooty Changehost list I posted a couple pages back and one of the biggest changes would likely be to combine the Flamers into 1 unit of 12 (or go to 9?) and try to get 2x20 Pinks going but.. again, meeting the tax of Changehost is, well, taxing.

Still up in the air on the Fatemaster. I keep wanting to hoard my CP's for the Horrors but all in all I think those re-rolls will be a huge factor when ran alongside Horrors or the Flamers.

Edited January 7, 2020 by Gwendar

[Martijn de Bruin]

@Gwendar

Building from that list you posted earlier:

Changehost 180
Lord of Change 380
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames (-1 to hit vs missile weapons wholly within 12")
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability (+1 to wound rolls wholly within 9")
- Spell: Fold Reality
Changecaster 110
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame (3+ MW return in melee)
- Spell: Bolt of Tzeentch
Blue Scribes 120
- Spell: Tzeentch's Firestorm
10 Pinks    200
10 Pinks    200
6 Flamers    240
6 Flamers    240
1 Exalted Flamer 100
1 Exalted Flamer 100
1 Fatemaster 120

Total: 1990
Drops: 2
CP: 2

OR (my current planned list):

Changehost 180
Lord of Change 380
- General
- Trait: Coruscating Flames (-1 to hit vs missile weapons wholly within 12")
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability (+1 to wound rolls wholly within 9")
- Spell: Fold Reality
Fateskimmer 140
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame (3+ MW return in melee)
- Spell: Treason of Tzeentch
Blue Scribes 120
- Spell: Tzeentch's Firestorm
10 Pinks    200
10 Pinks    200
6 Flamers    240
6 Flamers    240
1 Exalted Flamer 100
1 Exalted Flamer 100
1 Tome of Eyes 40
1 Command Point 50

Total: 1990
Drops: 1
CP: 3

I believe Fateskimmer serves a purpose in being a fast daemon hero for buffs/summons and allegiance aura for the more offensive units, next to the LoC.

p.s. not sure about spell selection, any pointers? (new to Tzeentch )😁

Edited January 7, 2020 by Martijn de Bruin
added spells

[Nizrah]

Im working on Pyrofane Cult list:

Witchfyre Coven - 160
Lord of Change - 380
- General
- Trait: -1 to hit from missile attacks
- Artefact: In the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a missle weapon by the bearer is 6, that attack inflicts D3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends. 2d6 attacks with rod will rocks!
- Spell: ?
Gaunt Summoner on Disk - 260
- Artefact2: Broch to refresh CP
-Spell: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster - 120
Tzaangor Shaman - 150
-Spell: ?
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
9 Tzaangor Enlighten - 300

1980/1 CP

Sounds very shooty, with good magic and a bit of melee. What do you think?

[DarrinTheOccult]

7 minutes ago, Nizrah said:

Im working on Pyrofane Cult list:

Witchfyre Coven - 160
Lord of Change - 380
- General
- Trait: -1 to hit from missile attacks
- Artefact: In the unmodified hit roll for an attack made with a missle weapon by the bearer is 6, that attack inflicts D3 mortal wounds and the attack sequence ends. 2d6 attacks with rod will rocks!
- Spell: ?
Gaunt Summoner on Disk - 260
- Artefact2: Broch to refresh CP
-Spell: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster - 120
Tzaangor Shaman - 150
-Spell: ?
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
20  Kairic Acolytes - 200
9 Tzaangor Enlighten - 300

1980/1 CP

Sounds very shooty, with good magic and a bit of melee. What do you think?

Remember that Witchfyre coven only affects to one kairic acolyte unit, so maybe you want 30 bodies in one of them

[RoloMcFury]

A couple of quick clarifications, regarding the Gaunt Summoner (either version):

1. Is there anything preventing the newly-summoned unit from immediately moving? It shows up in the Hero Phase, so I don't see why not. No FAQ yet for StD, which may clear it up. 

2. Is the StD version REALLY only 200 points?! What's to stop someone from running several and getting a free 200-point Pink Horror unit from each one at the start of the game. If so, to heck with Changehost- just vomit up 4+ free 50 wound units turn 1 and watch your opponent try to get through it all. 

[MitGas]

AFAIK summoning takes place at the END of the movement phase - so those horrors can't move in the turn the gaunt Summoner bring em in.

 

StD Gaunt Summoner on disc is 260 points. 

[mmimzie]

41 minutes ago, MitGas said:

AFAIK summoning takes place at the END of the movement phase - so those horrors can't move in the turn the gaunt Summoner bring em in.

 

StD Gaunt Summoner on disc is 260 points. 

There are no standard rules for summoning and if they can move. Each rule is it's own thing.

 

This ability happens at the start of the hero phase.

[MitGas]

Just now, mmimzie said:

There are no standard rules for summoning and if they can move. Each rule is it's own thing.

 

This ability happens at the start of the hero phase.

Cool, great to know! Thanks.

[Inquisitorsz]

Yeah this is something I've been pondering too....

Not that I'd ever want to buy/build/paint this many horrors....
But why not take 6 Gaunt summoners (at a cost of 240-260 each). So between 1440 - 1560 pts 

Drop 60 Pink Horrors turn 1
That's 300 wounds you've just gotten, essentially for free. 

Take host duplicitous (for casting rerolls, no retreating and chance to bring a whole units back)
or probably the better option is the summoner's guild since you're going to be casting 6 spells from the gaunts on the first turn (and 9 in later turns) + 6 from horrors + whatever else you take in your army  + the LOC when he comes on, possibly on turn 1. 
You're going to easily get 2 LOC in the first 2 turns. 
Or if not taking summoners guild, you're likely getting about 25 fate points by turn 2. 

And then after all that, you've still got 500pts left to spend.... and you still need 3 battleline so probably 3x10 acolytes which gives you 3 more spell casts and some bubble wrapping for the gaunts, then about 200pts left for... i dunno maybe some Sphiranx allies or 6 enlightened on foot? 

I guess the one weakness is that you're going to have a lot of drops so you're never getting to pick who goes first. And I guess against some lists your Gaunts could get shot first turn... But still. 
The whole army is also -1 to hit in melee, and those destiny dice with 1s can be used to bring back D6 horrors during battleshock tests. I assume you can put back pink horrors as the warscroll doesn't say otherwise. 

Seems like a pretty disgusting army. 
Am I missing something?
 

[Sinfullyvannila]

26 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Seems like a pretty disgusting army. 
Am I missing something?

Is the Rule of three for non-battleline a thing in this game; or is that just 40k? If it is a thing you can only take 3 units of the same warscroll.

It’s ridiculously vulnerable to alpha strikes. You don’t get your pinks until your first hero phase so if they can take out your Summoners.

Somewhat related; Pinks are very vulnerable to getting tarpitted since their focus is shooting. They are also ironically vulnerable to horde armies that can surround them and deny our splits.

You aren’t going to be taking advantage of all of your Gaunt’s casts. That’s probably not a big deal though since only 1 cast is good for the price you’re paying for them.

You may want to take as many Tzaangors as possible for battleline because you’ll need something with teeth in this army.

 

[Gwendar]

6 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Is the Rule of three for non-battleline a thing in this game; or is that just 40k? If it is a thing you can only take 3 units of the same warscroll.

Nope, not a thing. There are rules to limit behemoths, artillery and the amount of heroes (6 total), but you can do what he's describing.

42 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Not that I'd ever want to buy/build/paint this many horrors....

Am I missing something?

Nah man, I think you pretty much covered why I wouldn't want to do it 😉

I see your points, but I would also have to agree with @Sinfullyvannila's points on the matter. I think it's gimmicky but not likely to do much for you that other setups couldn't do better\as well.

[Inquisitorsz]

15 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Nope, not a thing. There are rules to limit behemoths, artillery and the amount of heroes (6 total), but you can do what he's describing.

Nah man, I think you pretty much covered why I wouldn't want to do it 😉

I see your points, but I would also have to agree with @Sinfullyvannila's points on the matter. I think it's gimmicky but not likely to do much for you that other setups couldn't do better\as well.

I guess ultimately, even doing that with 3-4 gaunt summoners still seems dumb. That's 600-800pts of free summoning, on top of all the fate points. 

As for gaunt casting, you're actually not losing much because you'll be able to cast 6 lore spells, 1 warscroll spell, 1 bolt, 1 shield. I guess I'm simplifying things and saying everything is in range. 

@Sinfullyvannila
the alpha strike is a problem, but that's always an issue for a wizard heavy army. 
the 30 acolytes can bubble wrap pretty well though. 

Good points about hordes  tar pitting horrors, but you can just keep the unit spread out a bit (perhaps in a ring) and leave space for splits. 
Also don't forget we have quite a few solid horde clearing spells. 

Ultimately I think needing to buy 3 boxes and 1 hero for every gaunt summoner, and needing to build and paint 300 horrors is going to be enough to stop this army ever seeing the table. 
The 6 gaunt summoners + the required horrors = $1230 AUD lol

But then again, people paint hundreds of clanrats already. and 3 keepers of secrets clock in at $690 AUD so it's not too crazy for power gaming meta players. 
It would be a pretty boring army to play, but the Horrors can do decent damage, the LOC isn't bad either so I'm not sure that the lack of a "hammer" unit is going to hurt too much in such a horde favoring, objective heavy game. 

It is true that while the horrors unit has 50 wounds, it only ever counts as 20 max for objective control. So unless you can zone the opponent out, you might still lose objectives to larger hordes. 
That being said, you're likely having 2x10 pink horrors for every horde unit they have (I think most horde armies have 2-4 horde units?) 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[AverageBoss]

42 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

You aren’t going to be taking advantage of all of your Gaunt’s casts. That’s probably not a big deal though since only 1 cast is good for the price you’re paying for them.

 

Between lore spells and realm spells, they will have plenty to cast with their 12 spells.

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 hours ago, RoloMcFury said:

A couple of quick clarifications, regarding the Gaunt Summoner (either version):

1. Is there anything preventing the newly-summoned unit from immediately moving? It shows up in the Hero Phase, so I don't see why not. No FAQ yet for StD, which may clear it up. 

2. Is the StD version REALLY only 200 points?! What's to stop someone from running several and getting a free 200-point Pink Horror unit from each one at the start of the game. If so, to heck with Changehost- just vomit up 4+ free 50 wound units turn 1 and watch your opponent try to get through it all. 

Other thing to note about the Disc version is that it lacks the ARCANITE keyword.

[Inquisitorsz]

19 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

Between lore spells and realm spells, they will have plenty to cast with their 12 spells.

@Sinfullyvannila
Actually first turn they only get 1 spell each because the summoning reduces their spell casting for that turn. 
There's 6 lore spells that target friendly units, plus mystic shield . So that's easy. 

Following turns you could do the same thing, or start using the other 5 lore spells which are 18" range that hit enemy units, the warscroll one and arcane bolt. 
That's not taking into account any endless spells you might want to buy as well. 

The Arcanite keyword doesn't matter much I don't think. The Gaunts have both Demon and Mortal which means they have access to most of the books' goodies. 

Oh and here's another stupid thing I just realized. 
I think the pink horror units can just keep growing. 
a 1 on the battleshock test restores D6 models, and the fold reality spell does the same thing on a 2+....

So say you've lost all your pink horrors and you now have 20 blue horrors, you can then use a 1 on the destiny dice for battleshock and cast a spell to get essentially 2D6 pink horrors back into the unit. lets say you get 7 back... the unit is now 7 pinks and 20 blues. Those 7 pinks will then split into 14 blues again. so you could end up with 34 blues now. 

So unless you get surrounded and can't physically place more models, the unit could get infinitely big. Models permitting of course. 
It has to be "slain models" so you can't go back over the initial 10 pink horrors, but seems like you can keep bringing pinks back after they split into blues.

not much of a problem in practice, but makes them that much harder to eliminate (as long as you don't roll a 1 for fold reality I guess)
to me it's just dumb rules writing. 

 

 

Edited January 8, 2020 by Inquisitorsz

[AverageBoss]

2 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Oh and here's another stupid thing I just realized. 
I think the pink horror units can just keep growing. 
a 1 on the battleshock test restores D6 models, and the fold reality spell does the same thing on a 2+....

So say you've lost all your pink horrors and you now have 20 blue horrors, you can then use a 1 on the destiny dice for battleshock and cast a spell to get essentially 2D6 pink horrors back into the unit. lets say you get 7 back... the unit is now 7 pinks and 20 blues. Those 7 pinks will then split into 14 blues again. so you could end up with 34 blues now. 

So unless you get surrounded and can't physically place more models, the unit could get infinitely big. Models permitting of course. 
It has to be "slain models" so you can't go back over the initial 10 pink horrors, but seems like you can keep bringing pinks back after they split into blues.

not much of a problem in practice, but makes them that much harder to eliminate (as long as you don't roll a 1 for fold reality I guess)
to me it's just dumb rules writing. 

 

 

They could do this before though. You could get an infinite number of blues and brims of a single pink unit via continuous healing with those same two abilities. The only difference now is that its all condensed into one unit, rather than multiple units.

[Sinfullyvannila]

18 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

 

So say you've lost all your pink horrors and you now have 20 blue horrors, you can then use a 1 on the destiny dice for battleshock... to get essentially 2D6 pink horrors back into the unit

Nope; you need the Icon Bearer, who is a Pink Horror, alive at the end of the battleshock phase.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Sinfullyvannila]

12 minutes ago, AverageBoss said:

They could do this before though. You could get an infinite number of blues and brims of a single pink unit via continuous healing with those same two abilities. The only difference now is that its all condensed into one unit, rather than multiple units.

@Inquisitorsz
And that now, Fold Reality risks destroying your entire unit, rather than slaying it.

The distinction being that before; the worst case scenario was that we lost the unit but still got all the points for it.

Now we just lose the whole unit. I’d only do it if I were down to Brims now. Then bring back the Pinks.

Its a lot harder to keep the Horror engine going now. Which is why I recommend the Lifeswarm if you attempt to do it.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Inquisitorsz]

4 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Nope; you need the Icon Bearer, who is a Pink Horror, alive to do that.

Yeah I missed that... but also Fold Reality can bring the icon bearer back, so probably worth the risk for that. 

[AverageBoss]

Ya. before you might roll a 1 and just lost your pinks. You blues and brims would be fine.

Now a 1 just wipes them all.

[Sinfullyvannila]

11 minutes ago, Inquisitorsz said:

Yeah I missed that... but also Fold Reality can bring the icon bearer back, so probably worth the risk for that. 

Just take the Lifeswarm if you want a Horror engine. Run over post-Pink unit with an endless spell; cast Lifeswarm(probably dispell it if it’s too risky to keep near the opponent).

Then you’ll be able to roll a battleshock at the end with an Icon Bearer if you haven’t lost him in the combat round.

Our mind has a bias that make 1/6th chance of losing the unit feel less risky than it is; but that’s the same chance of making a save without Rend or a FnP with the pink, and we expect that to happen. 
 

Fold Reality definitely has value, and that value is using it when there is a greater chance of losing the unit in combat than losing it to the spell.

Edited January 8, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Inquisitorsz]

uhhh... I hate so many of these rules =(  

I only played a little bit of arcanite/tzaangors in the past. Mainly stuff I had form some cheap Silver Tower spare parts.
I think I'll stick to that and just play less competitive stuff. 
Coz these horrors and gaunt summoners are really quite NPE (negative play experience). 

Hopefully Tzaangor Coven is somewhat good, though that battalion is like 1300pts alone. 

[Hebroseph]

1 hour ago, AverageBoss said:

Between lore spells and realm spells, they will have plenty to cast with their 12 spells.

Not everywhere uses realm spells.