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RuneBrush

AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

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28 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I did the math so you don't have to!

Thanks a bunch for this!

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2 hours ago, AaronWIlson said:

Are you FEC players considering use dice apps? Units of 40 ghouls very reliably rolling 200+ (And that number is being modest, very modest) with Feeding Frenzy + double pile in and attack will really chew through game time. 

I'm using "Xd6" and some times "Dice Roller: D6 WarGame Kit" on my IPod

Xd6 ❤️

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5 minutes ago, Fluttershy said:

I'm using "Xd6" and some times "Dice Roller: D6 WarGame Kit" on my IPod

Xd6 ❤️

Are these apps "tournament legal"? For some reason I thought GW rules were that you had to use their dice app if you were using one- and their app isn't really that great.

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So I've been thinking about it and I'm really very glad that Majestic Horror and Grand Tournament got changed. I didn't like that it was too much of an auto take before. I think now there can be a bit more experimentation and some of the other command traits seem pretty good without being the bonkers necessity that Majestic Horror was.  To a lesser degree Grand Tournament is the same though I imagine +1 to run and charge rolls is still gonna be the dominant pick for Delusions.

Still sad about the state of our Battalions over all though. Not having a large 1 drop battalion is frustrating and almost none of them feel worth the points at first glance. When the book gets here I'm gonna take a good look at it and probably step away from the internet for a few days to fully digest it and maybe get a game or two. Gut instinct tells me there's some juicy bits that might get overlooked on first glance.

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7 minutes ago, mrbedlam said:

Still sad about the state of our Battalions over all though. Not having a large 1 drop battalion is frustrating and almost none of them feel worth the points at first glance. When the book gets here I'm gonna take a good look at it and probably step away from the internet for a few days to fully digest it and maybe get a game or two. Gut instinct tells me there's some juicy bits that might get overlooked on first glance.

If you haven't already, I'd suggest taking a listen to the Facehammer battletome review. Those guys are some of the best players in the world, and they convincingly make the argument that one drop is really not the norm. There are a handful of armies that can one drop, but most cant and the average number of drops is actually pretty high. A battalion doesn't need to let you one drop to be good -- trimming your army down into the 4-5 drop range will still let you go first in a high percentage of games, and taking one of these battalions really helps make that possible. 

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2 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

If you haven't already, I'd suggest taking a listen to the Facehammer battletome review. Those guys are some of the best players in the world, and they convincingly make the argument that one drop is really not the norm. There are a handful of armies that can one drop, but most cant and the average number of drops is actually pretty high. A battalion doesn't need to let you one drop to be good -- trimming your army down into the 4-5 drop range will still let you go first in a high percentage of games, and taking one of these battalions really helps make that possible. 

That's probably true. It seems to me that if you can't get to 1 drop then you should probably shoot for 4 or 5 because 2 or 3 won't really matter. Do any of our battalions really give a decent enough bonus to warrant cost atm?  Once again, I need to look over them on paper to really see. Deadwatch seems good if Flayers are gonna be the new norm, but that starts to feel like an all the eggs in one basket strategy and I'm not sure I want my games to become "Toss as many flayers into my opponent on turn 2 as I can and hope they kill everything important"

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I'd imagine GW are listening to feedback on "one-drop" too and minimizing it where possible as well. It creates too many cookie-cutter builds.

The Strength of FEC has always been the synergy and I think this battletome pushes that to the max. Really interested to see what the high-level scene does with it. Especially now i've doubled down on some models :P

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2 minutes ago, mrbedlam said:

Do any of our battalions really give a decent enough bonus to warrant cost atm?  Once again, I need to look over them on paper to really see. Deadwatch seems good if Flayers are gonna be the new norm, but that starts to feel like an all the eggs in one basket strategy and I'm not sure I want my games to become "Toss as many flayers into my opponent on turn 2 as I can and hope they kill everything important"

The bonuses for battalions rarely justify the costs by themselves. The extra CP is nice, particularly for this army, but the real question is whether or not you actually want to be sure that you go first. If you are trying to play a very aggressive game, then you pretty much have to. I think FEC are under more pressure than most to go first because getting alpha striked and losing your characters before they have a chance to summon is incredibly devastating. All of the abhorrents are kinda undercosted, but only if they get their summon off. If they don't, then they are pretty much all overcosted. So perhaps there are competitive FEC builds that can afford to go second, but I suspect they will require you to be running a lot of ghouls to make sure that your characters don't get smashed turn 1.

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2 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

The bonuses for battalions rarely justify the costs by themselves. The extra CP is nice, particularly for this army, but the real question is whether or not you actually want to be sure that you go first. If you are trying to play a very aggressive game, then you pretty much have to. I think FEC are under more pressure than most to go first because getting alpha striked and losing your characters before they have a chance to summon is incredibly devastating. All of the abhorrents are kinda undercosted, but only if they get their summon off. If they don't, then they are pretty much all overcosted. So perhaps there are competitive FEC builds that can afford to go second, but I suspect they will require you to be running a lot of ghouls to make sure that your characters don't get smashed turn 1.

I've actually been thinking of the Grand Court that brings Ghouls units back on a 4+ (can't remember the name off the top of my head) and buffs heroes who also buff ghouls. It might actually be an ok attrition army with the chalice. Once again it will just require getting it on the table and seeing if its worth the frustration of moving 40 blobs of ghouls all over the place.

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Mass ghoul and spam archregent who is stupidly unbalanced. 

 

200 points for 2 spells and summons 200 points of ghouls (no CP if near throne). I was spitballing a mass ghoul patrol and summon list that regens but not sure I want to build and paint 180 odd ghouls. 

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As others have Speculated, I think the Archregents cost is to balance the overall high-points of the rest of the army. Makes sense to me.

Can't wait to get my Damsel count-as done ;)

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4 hours ago, Charlo said:

As others have Speculated, I think the Archregents cost is to balance the overall high-points of the rest of the army. Makes sense to me.

Can't wait to get my Damsel count-as done ;)

Will see a lot of conversions / proxies is my guess as I think most armies will want at least 3. 

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2 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

Will see a lot of conversions / proxies is my guess as I think most armies will want at least 3. 

I don't think so. Not after the intial hype at least.  If you are playing the ghoul horde court (can't remember the name), then you might want 3, but honestly they just dont pack the punch that a King on Ghiest does, and neither does a unit of 20 ghouls. In the end, 200 points is a lot for a hero even if he does give you ghouls and if you jam up your list with them you are going to be left with a bunch of chaff and mediocre heroes (after summoning). 1 or 2 is probably as high as you wanna go, just IMO

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i did a comparison with a couple of our units.

Ghouls are the similar baseline as Plaguemonks. mv6, 2a 4+h 4+w  6+armor Ghouls have much higher bravery. Plaguemonks get an extra attack. the extra attack is far better than the bravery. Ghouls get an extra attack if they stack 20 guys. Monks get 2x extra attacks on chargg. Id say plaguemonks are distinctively better than ghouls with the extra attack vs leadership (inspiring presence is too prevalent). Neither unit gets easy buffs and require personal attention (mostly  targetted.  Plaguemonks are spammed in units of 10 for maximum efficiency. Ghouls are hopeless unless you get a big unit amd concentrate all your heroes on them. Id say plaguemonks are better than ghouls.

Ghouls are 10pts. plaguemonks are 7pts. thats  nearly 50% more expensive..

Horrors i did a comparison with Rag Ogors

Horrors mv7 a3 h4 w3 r0 d2

Rat Ogors Mv 6 a4 h4 w3 r-1 d2

The rat ogors are 50pts, the horrors are 53pts. The rogors have more attacks, and rend, and are cheaper. The Horrors do however get access to easy and nice buffs. Buts its obvious they are severly overcosted as a unit by themselves and expected to be supported by heroes.

id say horrors needs to go back down to 140pts, and ghouls down to 7pts.

im also finding it very hard to take in courtiers. our abhorrants are critical to our army AND provide the buffs. The courtiers provide the healing which is auto in LoN. i dont see any other use for courtiers. I really like the idea of a specific courtier per unit to support it. I just dont think they do  that now. The courtiers should have had the unit buffs on them, not the abhorrants.

As for the summoning. this is what gave us the mess of fec. Its obvious gw wants abhorrants to summon, but the summon cost which we consider free is taxed off our unit costs and throws all our unit values out of whack.  

Unfortunately, i cant say we just have to wait for a book update because this is it now. Stack monsters and buff one unit.

tldr:

Ghouls should be 7pts. horrors 140, courtier should have buffs. summoning is a hot mess.

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10 minutes ago, soots said:

The rat ogors are 50pts, the horrors are 53pts.

But with good positioning, you’ll get all your models back at the beginning of your hero phase... try that with ogors

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26 minutes ago, Honk said:

But with good positioning, you’ll get all your models back at the beginning of your hero phase... try that with ogors

Requires a  Haunzer courtier (or varghul) which are also severely overpriced. Now that unit is around 300pts, and thats 2 rat ogre units which would destroy that unit in one turn.  and that regen only happens if you get the opportunity, which may be difficult with priority rolls and the fact everyone hits so hard. Id say fec is like units overpriced by 25% on average, courtiers overpriced by 33% on average, abhorrants underpriced by 33% on average.

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3 minutes ago, soots said:

Requires a  Haunzer courtier (or varghul) which are also severely overpriced. Now that unit is around 300pts, and thats 2 rat ogre units which would destroy that unit in one turn.  and that regen only happens if you get the opportunity, which may be difficult with priority rolls and the fact everyone hits so hard. Id say fec is like units overpriced by 25% on average, courtiers overpriced by 33% on average, abhorrants underpriced by 33% on average.

Or perhaps they are priced with a more holistic mindset instead of every unit priced in a vacuum.

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2 minutes ago, soots said:

Requires a  Haunzer courtier (or varghul) which are also severely overpriced. Now that unit is around 300pts, and thats 2 rat ogre units which would destroy that unit in one turn.  and that regen only happens if you get the opportunity, which may be difficult with priority rolls and the fact everyone hits so hard. Id say fec is like units overpriced by 25% on average, courtiers overpriced by 33% on average, abhorrants underpriced by 33% on average.

Let’s be careful on doom and gloom and theory hammer. The god of FEC just won LVO with the old book and we can all agree the new book is massively better. 

 

It it seems to me that now you can make all the units work. 

Ghouls in their grand court become silly good with come back to life on 4+ and plus attack on 10 models  

deadwatch is only 110 now for flayers

horrors are always solid and can now have +2 move 

courtiers are down to 120 so generic over varghulf is now a reasonable choice. 

Magic is massively better with a good spell lore and pretty insane endless spells. 

 

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attempt at list 2k infantry list

GKTerrorgeist. +1 to scream mount trait. Ethereal amulet (summons knights)

ArchRegent. (summons 20 ghouls)

Haunt courtier. General. Decrepid coronet (Battleshock)

Varghulf (hang around and help beef up ghouls and horrors as well as get reroll from Morgaunt)

2x6 Horrors

40 Ghouls

abbatoir, Feeding frenzy free delusion, +1cp

Morgaunt grand court

strat - 2x6 Horrors and 40 ghouls are abbatoir and unbreakable. General hides in back and pops in to attack at opportune time. GKTerrorgheist can charge off and attack and hopefully get rerolls from Morghant court. Varghulf and general top up ghouls and 2x horror units. Feeding frenzy where they can. Arch Regent casts when he can.

Thats 3 decent units and a mounted hero and some spell casting.

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So by total coincidence I just started collecting FEC a couple of months ago, and I’m super excited about the new tome. I’m wondering about people’s thoughts on Terrorgheist vs Zombie Dragon (with or without AGK) in the new era. Before, I could really see the value of a AGKoZD because summoning two courtiers with Majestic Horror just seemed crazy good. But now, I’m wondering how to build these guys out - is there still a place for the Zombie Dragon (either with a king on him, or without as battleline in Gristlegore)? Or should I just focus on TGs for now? Appreciate any thoughts comparing the two!

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So just listened to FACEHAMMER'S review, man oh man I was pretty cold on AoS but my wife is gearing up for a GT in August with her blades of khorne and now I think I have quick and dirty army to grab to help her train. I have two thoughts Blisterskin with a Deadwatch Battlion supported by double GhoulKing on Terrorgiest and cogs and what ever else I can fit  and or  Gristlegore with a Royal Menagerie and what everelse I can fit in the list thoughts?

Edited by LordDrakonus

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5 hours ago, ierthling said:

Appreciate any thoughts comparing the two!

If your opponent has workable bravery (<7/8) the terrorgheist...

if he fields bvy 10 one might consider the zombiedragon.

BUT also depends if a squad of knightly knights or a courtier is needed. If your playing deadwatch you should already have all the flayers and maybe a free courtier fits better.

ALSO!!! F-ing also just saw, rummaging in the App, they changed the gaping maw rule!!!

instead of a wounding 6 it triggers on a hitting 6!!! Not firm enough on the frenzy and feeding and black hunger stuff rules, but if you can crazy the poor gheist his maw attacks can be more than devastating.

looks like the spells from the kings count for all melee , sooo the terrorgheist maw attacks go up from 3 up to 7  so the chances of rolling a six...nice

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12 minutes ago, Honk said:

ALSO!!! F-ing also just saw, rummaging in the App, they changed the gaping maw rule!!!

instead of a wounding 6 it triggers on a hitting 6!!! Not firm enough on the frenzy and feeding and black hunger stuff rules, but if you can crazy the poor gheist his maw attacks can be more than devastating.

looks like the spells from the kings count for all melee , sooo the terrorgheist maw attacks go up from 3 up to 7  so the chances of rolling a six...nice

And you can give the maw full hit rerolls via mount trait

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