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AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion


RuneBrush

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21 minutes ago, soots said:

I didnt say he was a poor general. I said bringing in a non-optimal mounted heroes list is going to bring disadvantages which means if he faces a similar skilled opponent and they have optimal list then he should be losing whereas if his list was optimal it would be closer.  Once you get to a certain level everything counts.

What I am hearing from this is that if you bring non-optimal units, you will likely struggle against optimized lists run by high caliber players. I 100% agree. But players competing at this level are going to take the most optimized stuff, and spend a lot of time finding the most effective list. This often means they find the most effective units and combination of units. This also means that there are going to be units that are not as efficient or effective for whatever reason. That is the nature of this game; some units are just not as good as others. In this case, the foot heroes are worse than their mounted counterparts. Are they necessarily bad? No. You can still do well with them in casual and even small events. But if you are looking to run a list that competes on the highest level of events like LVO, then you are going to take the best stuff available.  

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59 minutes ago, Feanor said:

Hi guys! i'm starting a flesh eater courts army for the incoming release of the BT. 

I have brought a Sart collecting boc and im waiting for my carrion empire to come. 

Do you have any suggestion on what to build first in order to have something good? I like horros but also flying dudes are interesting and i hate having a set of three just splitted up for building a hero. 

Also do you have any suggestion or ideas on flesh eater convertion? I would like to have some part of armour on my ghouls or even shields; what do you think? And if you have any picture show me for inspiration :)

I slapped a bunch of stormcast bits to mine. 

 

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1 hour ago, soots said:

But you can ally up with them in LoN and get too many benefits.

Again, though, can you really?  The summoned ghouls cost a CP that could have been used on endless legions, and yeah, you can outflank them, but then they're likely out of range of the regents buff spell, and what else is the regent even going to try to cast, without access to faction spells?  And neither get or grant death saves, the summoned ghouls can't benefit from endless legions, gravesites, or invocations, or vanhels, the regent doesnt get traits or items, loses the ravenous hunger CA, etc.

I'm not saying they're bad or anything, but I really don't see legions being able to make even close to as good use of these guys as the native faction.  Not like they do with grimghasts or chainrasps, and even then that's only because they can run them native, not as allies.

Edited by Sception
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17 minutes ago, Sception said:

I'm not saying they're bad or anything, but I really don't see legions being able to make even close to as good use of these guys as the native faction.  Not like they do with grimghasts or chainrasps, and even then that's only because they can run them native, not as allies.

Native faction works better of course with synergies.

But as a whole, the archregent is balanced as a fec unit. the fec pay extra on other stuff, and the archregent gets a discount. hes obviously undercosted by a lot and thats factored into the fec army balance as a whole.

LoN can ally with him and get all the goodies without paying the other fec tax.

He can summon 3 horrors, gain the +3 +4 to cast available to "death" wizards to cast the D3a spell on the horrors, then he has a spell cast available to cast endless at like +3 +4 and what not.  

I like running the sacrament batallion to get an extra cast with my necros to get off endless. He may be a better option now.

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7 minutes ago, mrbedlam said:

So I ran a 1k tournament for the local scene today. Had a newbie with 5 games under his belt bring 2 GK on TG and 2 x 10 ghouls. He went undefeated and got full kill points in every round vs Chaos Dwarves, Night Haunt and Blades of Khorne.

GKoTG are absolutely brutal at 1000. There isnt much that will stand up to that, and the amount they summon in relation to the gamesize at 1000 points is unmanageable. Glad to hear it went well for him.

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8 minutes ago, Graywater said:

GKoTG are absolutely brutal at 1000. There isnt much that will stand up to that, and the amount they summon in relation to the gamesize at 1000 points is unmanageable. Glad to hear it went well for him.

Was a slaughterfest for sure. After 3 rounds and 27 attendees (should have been 4 rounds but we didn't have time): FEC, Seraphon and Nighthaunt were the 3 left undefeated. 

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53 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

I thought flayers looked better than horrors to me thanks to movement etc, why are people saying horrors are better?

Honestly I'm still of the thought that you should drop them each on the table when you need them. Regardless of how good flayers are, there are still points where I want those 2 and 3 damage swings over 1 damage rend 1.

The caveat to this is unless you build your list around them like Deadwatch

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9 hours ago, soots said:

mounted heroes are still in. he ran essentially the LoB list minus a few things and got lucky with opponents as he would be disadvantaged against some armies. And horrible means its a poor effort/half arsed effort for a tome thats supposed to be concise and flexible and full of character.

 

edit: also he ran ghoul patrol which is not happening anymore

Shame on you.

 

bill is one of the greatest player in US, Always top 10 in tournament.  In a 8 round tournament, it’s not because he’s lucky that he finish first.

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14 minutes ago, Deathtone_shade said:

Shame on you.

 

bill is one of the greatest player in US, Always top 10 in tournament.  In a 8 round tournament, it’s not because he’s lucky that he finish first.

Read much?

Im saying if someone at his skill level (not many, maybe 10) ran the proper LoB monster list  and faced him he would probably lose. His list wasnt optimized. My argument was the fec list did NOT do him no favours and could have lost him the tourney.

This was In context of people talking about  fec is already winning and im saying its a big uphill battle and other lists do it better

 

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2 hours ago, herohammer said:

Times are looking good to be a ghouly ghoul.

Yes, I can hear the calls for nerf all across the ocean... 😂👍

1 hour ago, soots said:

His list wasnt optimized.

Yeah, that’s what he said about his last devastating list too... or is he that good, that downtailored lists are a thing?! 

I mean his first monster mash list might have had the „surprise mufus FEC are back“ from new AoS 2.0 on his side, maybe... nobody prepare lines and tactics for FEC, because why bother. But a year later, with a second top score, those almost pro gamers are/should be prepared for fec nonsense. 

We‘re not talking casual let’s drink beer and roll some dice, darn I forgot my vamplord and grabbed a second necro, players... this is knife on the table tonycrippandostyle cheeselists which gets tweaked for half a year against poor sods in the nearer clubs before they meet to duke it out.

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Heirloom

Medal of Madness from GMG

"once per battle round, the bearer can use a command ability on their warscroll without a command point being spent, and they are treated as if they were a general when they do" courtier only

Our courtiers dont have command abilities. and the word states "on their warscroll". Do we consider the allegiance command ability(ie feeding frenzy)  on the warscroll of the courtiers?

Edited by soots
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17 minutes ago, soots said:

Heirloom

Medal of Madness from GMG

"once per battle round, the bearer can use a command ability on their warscroll without a command point being spent, and they are treated as if they were a general when they do" courtier only

Our courtiers dont have command abilities. and the word states "on their warscroll". Do we consider the allegiance command ability(ie feeding frenzy)  on the warscroll of the courtiers?

I would assume so otherwise the item does nothing

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1 minute ago, Gdead909 said:

Best thing I have heard all day! I told my group forever that FEC are old brits, but now the battletome basically confirms its LOL

Yep - it was pure impulse but saw a job lot at a good price (like 35% cheaper than eBay) so nabbed them. Now just working out what the rest of the units look like...

Speaking of though; ALLIES. With it confirmed we are still restricted to Deathlords, Deathmages & Deadwalkers - Which means our list is:

  • NAGASH, SUPREME LORD OF THE UNDEAD - 4000pt games only
  • Arkhan
  • Mannfred - Larger games only
  • Neferata
  • Morghasts
  • Mortis Engine
  • Necromancer
  • Zombies
  • Corpse Carts
  • Dire Wolves

While I can see some very obvious synergy with the Mortis Engine (casting bonuses, large AoE heal, mortal rounds in combat & range), most of the units have a lot to be desired. Zombies & the Necromancer don't add anything of note. The Corpse Cart is rather cheap at an 80pt +1 to cast, however outside of this is frail and fails to do much.

The three Mortarchs all add their own spin; Mannfred is a combat beast and can offensively buff our units, Neferata is the scalpel to Mannfred's hammer with defensive buffs and Arkhan brings a potent and reliable 2 cast wizard that buffs other spell casters range. All of them are very pointy though of which yo uare paying for Deathly Invocation which is useless.

That just leaves Dire Wolves and the Morghasts. The former are lauded for their speed, durability & screening as allies in a Soulblight list but for FEC I think their role is better served by outflanking GhoulsMorghasts are very interesting to me, they add something very unique to the FEC and that is high rend/ damage and survivability outside of healing. 4+/5++ with the Halberds makes a unit than can be a hammer or an Anvil (plus it's quite Fluffy, Nagash sending his prized minions in to watch the FEC). Though Perhaps Varghaulfs are just better for this?

What do people think? Currently I feel a Mortis Engine is the most unique and useful inclusion by far, not breaking the bank at only 180pts and covering a few bases.

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3 hours ago, Charlo said:

Bought 11 OOP Brettonian Pegasus Knights to use a Flayers etc... IT'S HAPPENING BOYS

 

38 minutes ago, Gdead909 said:

Best thing I have heard all day! I told my group forever that FEC are old brits, but now the battletome basically confirms its LOL

Speaking of that, since brets are OOP, I'm curious how well sticking Fireforge bitz on FEC looks.

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6 minutes ago, AaronWIlson said:

Are you FEC players considering use dice apps? Units of 40 ghouls very reliably rolling 200+ (And that number is being modest, very modest) with Feeding Frenzy + double pile in and attack will really chew through game time. 

Hvent found a good one that works well, otherwise ya i would. I have gotten very quick at rolling a ton of dice though

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I did the math so you don't have to! Expected values of a "banshee scream" (2d6-bravery) and "terrorgheist scream" (1d6+6-bravery):

Banshee Scream:

  • Bravery 0: 6.996
  • Bravery 1: 5.996
  • Bravery 2: 4.997
  • Bravery 3:  4.025
  • Bravery 4: 3.109
  • Bravery 5: 2.276
  • Bravery 6: 1.554
  • Bravery 7:  .9714
  • Bravery 8: .555
  • Bravery 9: .2774
  • Bravery 10: .1109
  • Bravery 11: .0277
  • Bravery 12: 0

Terrorgheist Scream:

  • Bravery 0: 9.5
  • Bravery 1: 8.5
  • Bravery 2: 7.5
  • Bravery 3: 6.5
  • Bravery 4: 5.5
  • Bravery 5: 4.5
  • Bravery 6: 3.5
  • Bravery 7: 2.5
  • Bravery 8: 1.667
  • Bravery 9: 1
  • Bravery 10: .5
  • Bravery 11: .1667
  • Bravery 12: 0

If you want to translate Banshee Screams into Crypt Flayer screams, just use the same bravery value if in combat or Bravery+2 if out of combat.

Terrorgheist starts to outperform a unit of 3 flayers at Bravery 8 (in combat) or Bravery 3 (out of combat). When you look at efficiency rather than absolute performance, the Terrorgheist starts to outperform flayers at Bravery 6 out of combat and Bravery 11 in combat.

I also ran the math on the offensive and defensive efficiency of the Terrorgheist, Crypt Flayers, and Zombie Dragon (note: unmounted versions of the monsters). What I found is that the Terrorgheist and Crypt Flayers are pretty close. The flayers are more efficient on both offense and defense at baseline. If the Terrorgheist heals twice it passes the flayers on defense, and it's pretty close to even after healing once. The Terrorgheist starts off significantly worse on offense but scales a tiny better with extra attacks, at least when compared to a unit of 3 Crypt Flayers, but it would take an unrealistic number of extra attacks for the Terrorgheist to catch up to Crypt Flayers.

In Gristlegore specifically, the Terrorgheist at baseline become essentially identical to Crypt Flayers in offensive efficiency. It'll scale a bit better than units of 3 Crypt Flayers with extra attacks, but will scale worse than large units of flayers. 

The Zombie Dragon is just straight up less efficient than either the Terrorgheist or Crypt Flayers and is defensively identical to the Terrorgheist except that it can't heal.  

In terms of ranged offensive efficiency, I tried to figure out against what bravery level the flayers and the Terrorgheist reach a level of efficiency that is generally "average" for a pure ranged unit. The results surprised me. The answer for Crypt Flayers is somewhere between Bravery 7 and 8, at least at melee range (5 and 6 for "long" range). So as long as your target is bravery 5 or less for long range or 7 or less for close range, Crypt Flayers perform at a level of ranged offensive efficiency that is typical of an average pure ranged unit. For the Terrorgheist, the Bravery target is Bravery 5, albeit at that point they are performing worse than Crypt Flayers.

Overall, the efficiency numbers for both of these warscrolls are not good. They are VERY inefficient defensively and mediocre in terms of offensive efficiency. The ranged portion actually help quite a bit though, particularly for flayers as they look closer to solid at baseline when you consider that they perform reasonably well as a ranged unit except against really high bravery levels. Also, once you start factoring all of the crazy buffs you can give them both warscrolls start to look a whole lot better, particularly large units of flayers. Such units are a huge liability though with their high cost and poor defense though, so you really need to be sure you can hit first. 

 

 

 

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