AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[XReN]

In the meantime @Bill_S brought even more glory to FEC
Wondering if there were any changes to the list?

[PUFNSTUF]

If someone wants to run the dragons as battleline, what would be better, the terrorgheist or zombie dragon?

[JackStreicher]

If anyone is Interested: I can model custom Crests for your FeC armies which you can then print on shapeways. 🙂 (Like the ones in the Battletome)

 

if you‘d like to hire me: just pm me

[Mutter]

1 hour ago, Fotta said:

Archregent has two casts/unbind, can take the trait for +1 to all magic rolls, and then the artifact for a +2 total.

Ally in two corpsecarts and a mortis engine, and you're at +5.

[kenshin620]

45 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

If someone wants to run the dragons as battleline, what would be better, the terrorgheist or zombie dragon?

I guess it depends on if your opponent can be Bravery Bombed or not.

[soots]

4 hours ago, Deathtone_shade said:

I arrive at the same conclusion than you:

 

somme grand court are really nice but the artefact you got from them aren’t so useful

really like your list 

personally I’ll use the artefact that make -2 bravery on unit within 6’’ and the suffoc gravetide (-1 bravery too). Make the scream of the flayer even better again  

Gristle-what you call it is a good grand court.

Giving mounted guy hit first to go with another hero means both attack first on the charge. Unfortunately, there is no way to alphastrike the hero and they have no good access to reroll hit. 

Fast-move court is also good.

I agree the courts have major downsides. but the best thing of having only 3 unit choices is everything you field meets requirements for batallions and the batallions are amazing. So you should atleast buy one and get the free item.

I dont like the flayer in hero phase batallion, its going to be very difficult to trigger as you dont want Flayers hanging around in combat for 3 turns.

Easily the most powerful batallion for me is the Royal Mordants. Gives Flayers a 24/28" move or Horrors 14"/18" move. Alpha striking horrors look tourney ready

the Archregent is broken and i see them being staple in optimized Legion of Nagash lists. 

As for the army, i feel like its a one trick pony still and horrible tome. D3A feeding frenzy. Thats all there is. Save the dispel for the D3a and let one unit feeding frenzy attack  a turn. The rest of the units are insanely overpriced and pay for access to the aforementioned abilities. Its going to be easy to counter because its too predictable. I feel like if they gave flayers a proper shooting attack and horrors rend it would 3x more flexible.

[Undeadly]

17 minutes ago, soots said:

...As for the army, i feel like its a one trick pony still and horrible tome....

He says, as a Pre-Battletome FEC army just sweeped LVO😉

[soots]

5 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

He says, as a Pre-Battletome FEC army just sweeped LVO😉

mounted heroes are still in. he ran essentially the LoB list minus a few things and got lucky with opponents as he would be disadvantaged against some armies. And horrible means its a poor effort/half arsed effort for a tome thats supposed to be concise and flexible and full of character.

 

edit: also he ran ghoul patrol which is not happening anymore

Edited February 10, 2019 by soots

[lord_blackfang]

Ghoul Patrol is pretty sad now. 180 pts to give Ghouls outflank, when you can alternatively just outflank them for free from an Archregent.

[Graywater]

Yeah, he ran ghoul patrol here, but he also saw success earlier with different builds too. And I wouldn't say that he got lucky on opponents, because he faced a real mix of different armies to get to the top, including last year's winner. Between his results so far, and previous results, I feel it is safe to say that bill is a very skilled player getting the most out of a list he is quite familiar with. 

[Sception]

3 hours ago, Fotta said:

We didn't get the full caster court I was hoping for, but we can make a decent approximation. Archregent has two casts/unbind, can take the trait for +1 to all magic rolls, and then the artifact for a +2 total. Or upgrade a courtier to a wizard with that specific trait. Add an allied Arkhan and there's some decent casting power. 

Definitely not what we were hoping for, but there's some potential. 

Oh, certainly there's decent potential for some casty business here.  Arkhan plus a corpse cart fit in the ally restrictions for a 2k list, throw in an archregent, maybe a ghoul king or two, etc.  Not sure what court or delusion would fit best w that.

Still, would have liked the explicitly pro-nagash fluff that I had imagined might come with a casty court.  I'll have to take a longer look at the fluff of the courts when the book comes out to see how they relate to the great necromancer.

[Pangu]

3 hours ago, soots said:

Gristle-what you call it is a good grand court.

Giving mounted guy hit first to go with another hero means both attack first on the charge. Unfortunately, there is no way to alphastrike the hero and they have no good access to reroll hit. 

Fast-move court is also good.

I agree the courts have major downsides. but the best thing of having only 3 unit choices is everything you field meets requirements for batallions and the batallions are amazing. So you should atleast buy one and get the free item.

I dont like the flayer in hero phase batallion, its going to be very difficult to trigger as you dont want Flayers hanging around in combat for 3 turns.

Easily the most powerful batallion for me is the Royal Mordants. Gives Flayers a 24/28" move or Horrors 14"/18" move. Alpha striking horrors look tourney ready

the Archregent is broken and i see them being staple in optimized Legion of Nagash lists. 

As for the army, i feel like its a one trick pony still and horrible tome. D3A feeding frenzy. Thats all there is. Save the dispel for the D3a and let one unit feeding frenzy attack  a turn. The rest of the units are insanely overpriced and pay for access to the aforementioned abilities. Its going to be easy to counter because its too predictable. I feel like if they gave flayers a proper shooting attack and horrors rend it would 3x more flexible.

 I completely agree with this assesment. As a player who likes the aesthetic of knights + serfs the book comes across as such a disappointment. Instead of making balanced lists viable they just pushed even harder into the monster mash list. Then there is the archregent... It's fairly obvious they didnt do much play testing or deep analysis of this book.

[Graywater]

11 minutes ago, Pangu said:

 I completely agree with this assesment. As a player who likes the aesthetic of knights + serfs the book comes across as such a disappointment. Instead of making balanced lists viable they just pushed even harder into the monster mash list. Then there is the archregent... It's fairly obvious they didnt do much play testing or deep analysis of this book.

See, I actually look at it differently. Pur monster mash list is good still. But not the be all end all. The addition of the grand courts are just straight upgrades and I think help allow armies built around horrors, flayers, and or ghouls to be perfectly viable. I'm excited to run a few different lists, particularly around running my favorite unit, horrors.

[kenshin620]

37 minutes ago, Pangu said:

 It's fairly obvious they didnt do much play testing or deep analysis of this book.

Or maybe they did but it doesn't align with player meta. GW's game vision and player meta can be quite different. I mean they did accidentally create the monster that was 40k 8th launch where people would show up with 8 flying hive tryants.

Edited February 10, 2019 by kenshin620

[Pangu]

7 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Or maybe they did but it doesn't align with player meta. GW's game vision and player meta can be quite different. I mean they did accidentally create the monster that was 40k 8th launch where people would show up with 8 flying hive tryants.

Well, play testing is meaningless if it isn't effective. It doesnt take a brain surgeon to see that the archregent as written is too efficient. I'll hold off until the faq before saying much more about the book.

[Pangu]

46 minutes ago, Graywater said:

See, I actually look at it differently. Pur monster mash list is good still. But not the be all end all. The addition of the grand courts are just straight upgrades and I think help allow armies built around horrors, flayers, and or ghouls to be perfectly viable. I'm excited to run a few different lists, particularly around running my favorite unit, horrors.

Imo none of the Courts address the core issue with knights and serfs, and that's thier points cost. They are still absurdly overcosted. Modern armies have no issues dealing with >100 wounds armies, especially when they only have a 5+ or 6+ save. Knight/serf armies also need more character support bringing their drop count up and eliminating the option of the alpha strike.  The whole setup is just incredibly inefficient and don't see a way around this other than spamming archregent which is exactly what i want to avoid.

[Sception]

5 hours ago, Mutter said:

Ally in two corpsecarts and a mortis engine, and you're at +5.

Corpse cart casting bonus doesn't stack with itself.

[Sception]

22 minutes ago, Pangu said:

Imo none of the Courts address the core issue with knights and serfs, and that's thier points cost. They are still absurdly overcosted. Modern armies have no issues dealing with >100 wounds armies, especially when they only have a 5+ or 6+ save. Knight/serf armies also need more character support bringing their drop count up and eliminating the option of the alpha strike.  The whole setup is just incredibly inefficient and don't see a way around this other than spamming archregent which is exactly what i want to avoid.

If the main problems with what's there are points costs, that ghouls & hortors cost too much and archregents too little, then at least that's something that might see correction in future general's handbooks rather than having to wait for a 3rd edition update.

[Graywater]

12 minutes ago, Pangu said:

Imo none of the Courts address the core issue with knights and serfs, and that's thier points cost. They are still absurdly overcosted. Modern armies have no issues dealing with >100 wounds armies, especially when they only have a 5+ or 6+ save. Knight/serf armies also need more character support bringing their drop count up and eliminating the option of the alpha strike.  The whole setup is just incredibly inefficient and don't see a way around this other than spamming archregent which is exactly what i want to avoid.

I'll agree that ghouls are overcosted compared to skeletons and chainrasp. I'm not a fan of flayers. I dont think they're invalid though. They arent point and click like units that some armies have access to (looking at you grimghasts), but they will have their uses for sure. Itll just take some more nuanced play. Other armies can take out 100 wounds no problem, sure. But now so can we.

When it comes to your point on the support characters, you were taking many of those models anyways, so whether you bought them for the summoning, to smash face, or for support,they can do those things at the same time. So I see no issue there.

It's never been an issue considering our alpha potential. Sure, we don't have the lowest drop army, but we arent typically in the 10-12 range, so it's almost 50-50 whether we decide who goes first or not. But between our spell lore and courts boosting speed, and our summoning coming from the board edge, I think we actually have a safer alpha strike potential than most armies out there, regardless as to whether we go first or second. 

[Feanor]

Hi guys! i'm starting a flesh eater courts army for the incoming release of the BT. 

I have brought a Sart collecting boc and im waiting for my carrion empire to come. 

Do you have any suggestion on what to build first in order to have something good? I like horros but also flying dudes are interesting and i hate having a set of three just splitted up for building a hero. 

Also do you have any suggestion or ideas on flesh eater convertion? I would like to have some part of armour on my ghouls or even shields; what do you think? And if you have any picture show me for inspiration

[Sception]

Do people really see the archregent as a good ally choice for Legions?  No items on him, no lore spells, no chair to make his summon free, neither his own death save nor the ability to project one?  He has his own signature spell, but who's he gonna cast it on?  Himself?  A summoned unit of 20 ghouls?  And those ghouls cost a command point that could have been used to revive a unit of 30 grims or 40 skittles.

I mean, don't get me wrong, regent looks *stupidly* good in FEC, maybe good enough to prop up the whole faction, but outside of it I'm not so sure.

Edited February 11, 2019 by Sception

[Future]

3 hours ago, Graywater said:

Yeah, he ran ghoul patrol here, but he also saw success earlier with different builds too. And I wouldn't say that he got lucky on opponents, because he faced a real mix of different armies to get to the top, including last year's winner. Between his results so far, and previous results, I feel it is safe to say that bill is a very skilled player getting the most out of a list he is quite familiar with. 

Adding to that I don't see how luck can play into opponents on day 3 top 8 at all. These are the 8 best players at the event and hes been defending his bid for 1st all day.

[soots]

5 minutes ago, Sception said:

If the main problems with what's there are points costs, that ghouls & hortors cost too much and archregents too little, then at least that's something that might see correction in future general's handbooks rather than having to wait for a 3rd edition update.

This is grimghasts all over again. Regents are probably fine in their enclosed circle army of FeC because the other units bare the cost.  But you can ally up with them in LoN and get too many benefits.

Imo. Ghouls should be 70/240.

Horrors should have rend -1 and be 140pts.

Flayers should have a 12" scream. D3A 4+ hit. mw.

The problem with the upper tier FEC heroes like the archregent is the summoning. . "Free" units with heroes just messes up transparent point costs which are paid by other stuff.

 

[soots]

8 minutes ago, Future said:

Adding to that I don't see how luck can play into opponents on day 3 top 8 at all. These are the 8 best players at the event and hes been defending his bid for 1st all day.

I didnt say he was a poor general. I said bringing in a non-optimal mounted heroes list is going to bring disadvantages which means if he faces a similar skilled opponent and they have optimal list then he should be losing whereas if his list was optimal it would be closer.  Once you get to a certain level everything counts.

[Future]

1 minute ago, soots said:

I didnt say he was a poor general. I said bringing in a non-optimal mounted heroes list is going to bring disadvantages which means if he faces a similar skilled opponent and they have optimal list then he should be losing whereas if his list was optimal it would be closer.  Once you get to a certain level everything counts.

How can you imply his opponents aren't similar skill levels? They are the best players at the LVO. Also not sure what you mean by it would be closer, he hasn't dropped a game in 7 games and it looks like hes about to win game 8 and take the whole event as the only undefeated player.