AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[Honk]

Well, then we have to establish what a „real“ monster mash list is supposed to look like first. 

Of course you can’t have all the beasts and buckets of ghouls, but it is possible to walk the line effectively.

And also this depends on your opponents army, list and skillz. 

GkoZD (MH), GkoTg, GkoTg, GC, 3x10 Ghouls, GP... 1800 points

I‘d up one ghoul squat to 20 and get another courtier. 1980 pts 

strategy: 10g on the board homebase with GC, 20g for aggressive ambush with GC, 10g for defensive ambush. Gks ready to rock. First turn gkozd calls two varghulf one for the aggressive 20g, one for the...gkotg summons horrors.

general mayhem commences, round two second gkotg summons second horror squad. General mayhem continues... homeghouls should be nearing the 20 mark, whatever happened to the others. 

During round 3 I probably should have lost my general gkozd due to distraction carnifex charge and if things were tough the aggressive 20g with GC and v got finally wiped. Maybe even the death of gkotg1... but I should have been scoring on 3/4 objectives for 3 turns... while s/he tried to get out of the aggressive ambush on the homebase and the triple bowling ball monsters. 

That‘s the theory at least, fail the charges, superb counter deployment, op sun-tzu-ing... and your left with 40 ghouls on your homebase wondering what happened

[mrbedlam]

5 hours ago, Honk said:

Well, then we have to establish what a „real“ monster mash list is supposed to look like first. 

Of course you can’t have all the beasts and buckets of ghouls, but it is possible to walk the line effectively.

And also this depends on your opponents army, list and skillz. 

GkoZD (MH), GkoTg, GkoTg, GC, 3x10 Ghouls, GP... 1800 points

I‘d up one ghoul squat to 20 and get another courtier. 1980 pts 

strategy: 10g on the board homebase with GC, 20g for aggressive ambush with GC, 10g for defensive ambush. Gks ready to rock. First turn gkozd calls two varghulf one for the aggressive 20g, one for the...gkotg summons horrors.

general mayhem commences, round two second gkotg summons second horror squad. General mayhem continues... homeghouls should be nearing the 20 mark, whatever happened to the others. 

During round 3 I probably should have lost my general gkozd due to distraction carnifex charge and if things were tough the aggressive 20g with GC and v got finally wiped. Maybe even the death of gkotg1... but I should have been scoring on 3/4 objectives for 3 turns... while s/he tried to get out of the aggressive ambush on the homebase and the triple bowling ball monsters. 

That‘s the theory at least, fail the charges, superb counter deployment, op sun-tzu-ing... and your left with 40 ghouls on your homebase wondering what happened

The problem here is that the "meta" of the Mash list is the Arkhan inclusion. He provides the unbinding and spell stealing punch you need to work against other Arkhan/Nagash lists.

[CanHammer-darren]

I think a true monster mash has to max the monsters. That’s the point is it not? So 4 behemoths

[Glaurung]

It only works with Arkhan I think. Ghoul patrol is not the way in my opinion...

[eekamouse]

5 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

It only works with Arkhan I think. Ghoul patrol is not the way in my opinion...

This is the list I'm going to try. I still need to pick up Arkhan. Was going to get him anyway to throw into a Sacrament/Nighthaunt army. I could drop the ghoul count down to 10 each... but that leaves them susceptible to being shot off the board. But if you take them down to groups of 10, that's 300 points to play with.

LEADERS
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)
Crypt Ghast Courtier (80)
Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)

UNITS
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)
20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)

BATTALIONS
Ghoul Patrol (180)

TOTAL: 1980/2000

[Honk]

Well, the „BenSzousa“-List is known....

First he said it was heavily tailored for a specific event, then suddenly he stomped through another one.

Sooo, I’m not sold on the 3x10 ghoul approach, I think he is lying and trying to fool everybody. It’s not the list, it’s the player, his tactical acumen and strategic brilliance is far beyond my possibilities, so I‘m not touching that hot mess...

 

[Heroflegend21]

10 hours ago, Honk said:

Well, then we have to establish what a „real“ monster mash list is supposed to look like first. 

Of course you can’t have all the beasts and buckets of ghouls, but it is possible to walk the line effectively.

And also this depends on your opponents army, list and skillz. 

GkoZD (MH), GkoTg, GkoTg, GC, 3x10 Ghouls, GP... 1800 points

I‘d up one ghoul squat to 20 and get another courtier. 1980 pts 

strategy: 10g on the board homebase with GC, 20g for aggressive ambush with GC, 10g for defensive ambush. Gks ready to rock. First turn gkozd calls two varghulf one for the aggressive 20g, one for the...gkotg summons horrors.

general mayhem commences, round two second gkotg summons second horror squad. General mayhem continues... homeghouls should be nearing the 20 mark, whatever happened to the others. 

During round 3 I probably should have lost my general gkozd due to distraction carnifex charge and if things were tough the aggressive 20g with GC and v got finally wiped. Maybe even the death of gkotg1... but I should have been scoring on 3/4 objectives for 3 turns... while s/he tried to get out of the aggressive ambush on the homebase and the triple bowling ball monsters. 

That‘s the theory at least, fail the charges, superb counter deployment, op sun-tzu-ing... and your left with 40 ghouls on your homebase wondering what happened

With crusading army you get to reroll failed charges. So unlikely you'll fail. I recommend only summoning 1 VC and make the general a GKoTG to summon more bodies to the field. As we have an extra GC for the home field ghouls. And to keep the pressure up you can instead throw in another GK on foot and summon more ghouls just for more pressure later on. It's a great list for attrition as your units won't stay down easily and even if the opponent is rolling nothing but sixes they are still choosing between multiple threats all across the board!

[Honk]

2 hours ago, Heroflegend21 said:

So unlikely you'll fail.

Played a triple monster list back with gh17 and my gkozd declined my suggestion to charge the last 3“... two times...

GW dice showed double skulls both times... he is called „the beautiful“ since then, my opponent and I decided he had a French manicure done instead 

[TheWilddog]

I played a local 3 game event today with the Souza style list:

Went 2-1 and came in third.

Game one I got a win verses a Seraphon list. Arkhan was absolute aces allowing me to go toe to toe with the Slann in the magic phase. 

Game two I won against a standard Stormcast Alpha Strike list with Gavriel Sureheart and all his Evocator and Sequitor friends. I deployed with my chaff ghouls protecting my fatties. He dropped in anyway and cleared them out.  I summoned and then countered with my monsters, proceeded to get the double turn and rolled to a pretty big win. 

Game three I lost to Daughters.  I had no real way to break up their synergies and a buffed up block of 30 witches barreled through my army. I tried to chaff it up and play the objective game because it the Better Part Of Valor battle plan but it did not work out. I held the early objective lead but by turn three got steam rolled and did not have much left to score.     

Overall I was pretty impressed with how the list played.  I was worried that without my normal big Ghoul blocks the list would struggle to play the objective game.  However, with all the summoned units you are able to manage objectives better than I anticipated. Also the big monsters we have are so mobile that they really let you put a lot of pressure where you need it when you need it.  Also, I was doubtful of Arkhan but he was awesome.  As I said he basically won me game 1 and he always seemed good.

Edited November 11, 2018 by TheWilddog

[Glaurung]

I think this shows that Arkhan is the key, the focus of the list. He is extremely powerful and enables the monsters to do what they want.

[TheWilddog]

1 hour ago, Glaurung said:

I think this shows that Arkhan is the key, the focus of the list. He is extremely powerful and enables the monsters to do what they want.

I think Arkhan is important to the list, but I believe that our monsters are the key.  As I said they are SO mobile and the fact that they summon means they bring a lot more value than they did before. That hidden value in summoning seems to be the only way our faction can compete so it makes sense that lists that maximize that value are our best option.  

I also just think it has a lot to do with the current meta. With the general decline in shooting, our monsters are staying on the table a little longer and we get to use our synergies more, that is very important to our army and has definitely helped.  Also magic is pretty huge right now and with all the AGK with have access to being decent casters that are mobile and at least have a chance of disrupting our opponents magic phase. Arkhan obviously super charges this and takes it to another level.  

[Honk]

5 hours ago, TheWilddog said:

 

I also just think it has a lot to do with the current meta

If you’re able to grab the objectives and prevent the enemy to push you off you‘re set.  Death in general and FEC with summoning is pretty good at that right now. Good thing we don’t have valid one drop battalions or we would be in fort he nerf-hammer again

Edited November 12, 2018 by Honk

[Baron Wastelands]

8 hours ago, TheWilddog said:

I think Arkhan is important to the list, but I believe that our monsters are the key.  As I said they are SO mobile and the fact that they summon means they bring a lot more value than they did before. That hidden value in summoning seems to be the only way our faction can compete so it makes sense that lists that maximize that value are our best option.  

I agree - I only play 1k with FEC, but 2 x AGKoTG, 2 x 10 ghouls is really effective. You get to summon 3x3 flayers /horrors most of the time, which is a nice supplement to 2 large monsters that can also cast.

in terms of expanding to 2k, I have considered 2 more AGKoTG, but think at least 1AGKoZD would be better for the vargulf. Maybe 2 plus 10 ghouls. The only issue is that it takes a couple of turns to summon everything.

 I can see that Arkham would be useful in a heavy magic meta, but otherwise the strength is in the big threats, surely?

Edited November 12, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[Honk]

10 hours ago, Baron Wastelands said:

I can see that Arkham would be useful in a heavy magic meta, but otherwise the strength is in the big threats, surely?

Well, the minor threat of CoY your whole unit, be it hammer or anvil style. The chances are slim (15%) but do you really want to bet your 6 fulminators on it?! 

So I guess Arkhan is always a solid choice, especially since he only costs as much as three horrors and a varghulf. 

The thing with ghb18 FEC is, that the summoning is brutal and the big models call in the pain. So the monster heavy lists are highly viable, enabling you to up your point limits. Three baddies summon 640 points, that just gives an edge if used aggressively. Together with crusading army, 2x3 horrors teaching those long-strike raptors things about chivalry. Threatening the home base... ghoul patrol rushing in for the secondaries...

Grab the objective, don’t let it go... win

 

[Glaurung]

Guys, I need to know if this has already been discussed before. When i give majestic horror to a haunter courtier, do I summon two units of ghouls, or just one? RAW I read two...

[XReN]

34 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

Guys, I need to know if this has already been discussed before. When i give majestic horror to a haunter courtier, do I summon two units of ghouls, or just one? RAW I read two...

It might not be intended, but I think you are right

[Glaurung]

RAI is not the way I like to read the rules. For example, in ghoul patrol the "add" above initial strength was not inteded, whereas it turned out to be like that.
Do we have some tournament players (but not only them) or referees that can give their opinion on the matter?

[XReN]

3 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

RAI is not the way I like to read the rules. For example, in ghoul patrol the "add" above initial strength was not inteded, whereas it turned out to be like that.
Do we have some tournament players (but not only them) or referees that can give their opinion on the matter?

Hey now, I never said that you shold go RAI about it!
It does work as you explained IMO, it's just the fact that in the previous GHB it worked differently

[Glaurung]

I did not mean to offend you, sorry. I am just a little angry because people told me I am inventing the rules, so now I would like to understand how this ability works...

[Honk]

3 hours ago, Glaurung said:

When i give majestic horror to a haunter courtier, do I summon two units of ghouls, or just one?

Well, the rules state, that

1. when using summoning on this model with MH you can summon twice without paying a second CP.

2. It also states, when your general doesn’t have a summoning skill, he can use the Gk one.

so of course, arguing, that the first half of the rules is ignored, since the extra ability is only mentioned as an afterthought is valid, but imo stupid...

although the extra ability is mentioned second, it applies „before“ the battle starts. The courtier f.e. enters the game with the summoning skill attached to him.

then, when the summoning effect is triggered, your Majestic Horror skill kicks in, enabling you to summon twice... that’s after the game started, maybe even during second turn.

if somebody screws me up with unsuspected cheese i‘d scream unfair too, but such is life. 

The RAW/RAI discussion is pointless, without G-Dubs FAQing it.

like they did on the becoming wizzard skill, no more +1 for the unskilled anymore.

 

[Baron Wastelands]

 

11 hours ago, Glaurung said:

Guys, I need to know if this has already been discussed before. When i give majestic horror to a haunter courtier, do I summon two units of ghouls, or just one? RAW I read two...

Honestly, I read it as 2, RAW and RAI. 

It doesn’t say ‘if you have a summoning ability, use it twice, if you don’t, have this one.’ That would be harder to interpret.

What it does say is ‘if this model is chosen to use a summon ability, use it twice. If it doesn’t have one, give it this one.’

the second conditional isn’t intended/written to affect the consequent in the first conditional, just the antecedent. It amounts to ‘if this model is chosen to use a summon ability (use the gk one if it doesn’t have one), use it twice.’

That’s RAW, and it looks deliberate to me?

 

[Glaurung]

Guys, GW is asking for advice in units points for GH 2019!

we should discuss here what could be changed:

ghouls: cost too much compared to witches and skeletons. One needs to take into account the wide variety of buffs these last two have. If they don’t go down, I think we could justify having ghouls at 70-90 points

horrors: I think they are fine

flayers: if they stay as they are, I think they should cost less, like 140-150. Horrors are almost always better and the -1 to hit just makes them useless as their scream attack

ghast courtier: I’d like to see him go down, as he is very fragile and “only” brings back ghouls. Compare this to a Hag Queen and how she can empower its units...

haunter&infernal courtier&varghulf: I’d leave them as they are

GK on foot: I don’t know, maybe 140 is fair

mounted kings: fair pointed

then we have batallions... I’d bring almost all of them down, as they are not usually ideal in units composition and don’t give many buffs (I’d leave ghoul patrol at 180 though)

If they also want comments about the allegiance abilities, well I’ll write another post...

 

eveything above is just my opinion. what do you guys think?

Edited November 14, 2018 by Glaurung

[TheWilddog]

53 minutes ago, Glaurung said:

Guys, GW is asking for advice in units points for GH 2019!

we should discuss here what could be changed:

ghouls: cost too much compared to witches and skeletons. One needs to take into account the wide variety of buffs these last two have. If they don’t go down, I think we could justify having ghouls at 70-90 points

horrors: I think they are fine

flayers: if they stay as they are, I think they should cost less, like 140-150. Horrors are almost always better and the -1 to hit just makes them useless as their scream attack

ghast courtier: I’d like to see him go down, as he is very fragile and “only” brings back ghouls. Compare this to a Hag Queen and how she can empower its units...

haunter&infernal courtier&varghulf: I’d leave them as they are

GK on foot: I don’t know, maybe 140 is fair

mounted kings: fair pointed

then we have batallions... I’d bring almost all of them down, as they are not usually ideal in units composition and don’t give many buffs (I’d leave ghoul patrol at 180 though)

If they also want comments about the allegiance abilities, well I’ll write another post...

 

eveything above is just my opinion. what do you guys think?

Nice post and good idea to brainstorm some of our ideas here. 

I agree Ghouls should come down, I would say to 80 and see how it goes from there. 

I agree that most of the battalions need a reduction.  I think this is true across most armies and is a system wide problem that they will hopefully address with this GHB. 

I think they need to fix the battleline issue.  The fact that Horrors and Flayers are only battleline with their respective courtiers make no fluff sense and makes for awkward builds. I say just make them both battleline for FEC armies.  You have precedence with Brutes in Ironjwazs having a similar situation. I think its a good perk for small range armies. It will open up more builds and if you lower Ghouls they will still be enticing as an option.  

As for our Allegiance abilities they are a mixed bag.  The Feeding Frenzy ability is mostly useless, just way too random. It would be nice if they actually made it useable. The Delusions are great fluff and flavor wise, but honestly Crusading is soooooo much better than the rest that it's not really a choice. I would like to see the other abilities pumped up a bit to allow them to be built around as well.   

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by TheWilddog

[Glaurung]

Tomorrow I will post some ideas for allegiance just to share them, because I don’t think GW is going to consider these

[XReN]

So, I would actually argue that ghouls are actually in the fine place, maybe make them 90/320, but no further than this. You can't really compare them to daugthers because comparing to broken armies is unhealthy. And ghouls are better than skeletons when taken without buffs in mind. 
For ghoul courtier I don't know if I want point drop, I'd be more interested in seeing GW change his attack buff if killed models for something that will protect him, +1 save or -1 to hit, basicly enchanced Look Out Sir, or necromancer's wound redirection.
Flayers, deffinitely a point drop AND give them 3+ to hit, they just don't stand to horrors level.
Horrors - ok
AGK, GKoZD, GKoTG - ok

ZD, TG - this guys are in a bad spot to me because mounted GKings are far superior, but flat out point reduction would not fix it, maybe followed by wound reduction? Make them 12 wounds for 260-270 point

Varghulf, Haunter, Infernal - Maybe 10-20 points drop for them just to let us round up the lists? I find myself in a position when I'm 10 points short of a courtier, and don't need more ghouls / don't have the wizards to bring endless spells (all built-in spells are sooo good)