AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[WoollyMammoth]

@Pangu Its hard to judge battleline right now since seemingly everything can be battleline in AoS now, but if you really hate Knights and Ghouls you can play Gristlegore and take 3 dragons for battleline.

Bullgors have a great offense for sure since they have rend, but that's their only benefit. Horrors have 10 bravery which can be a big deal. Horrors re-roll all failed hits so they produce more wounds. You also have to think about the unit in comparison to the army. Bullgors can have all kinds of crazy synergy from different lists to have super good offense, but I would say Horrors are better overall with the things the FEC book has to offer such as: a spell that could potentially double the units attacks,  a spell that can make them move 11", a Court that can give them run+charge, and most importantly - courtiers to bring them back from death. Oh and don't forget the ability to fight twice in a row.  Still, the lack of rend is a pain on an elite unit but Horrors can be a serious hammer and anvil unit in the new book. Bullgors are great though, and I've seen them taken in multiple lists. With the new Beasts of Chaos book I expect to see a ton more of them soon.

Its hard to compare Plague Monks to Ghouls, Plague Monks were kind of written as one crazy unit to make Pestelins viable, but this is being exploited by sticking them in Nurgle lists. Its hard to comment on Plague Monks now because their scroll just changed, but its a crazy offense horde. Ghouls having double the bravery is a big deal. I would actually compare Ghouls to Monks now in terms of sheer destruction that can be caused. They have the same fast 6" move which is key. Monks will have a little bit more elite attacks but ghouls can make up for that with sheer number of attacks (esp considering attacking twice). I think its a bit moot, whether its 40 ghouls or 40 monks attack a unit first - that unit is super dead. Monks are cheaper but ghouls can come back from the dead in droves, so I'm going to vote Ghoul units as better.

The meta is looking super risky for hordes right now though so I'm not sure if its a good idea to take either.

The fact is that ghouls and Horrors are based on the original VC army concept for them; They can't be too good because they can come back to life easy. you pay a point tax to field them because they come back. Units like Bullgores and Plague Monks just die, where death is only a temporary issue for FEC.

I agree about flayers I don't think they are a great unit that should be maxed.

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by WoollyMammoth

[Fabint]

All the moping over horrors has me wanting to run them more tbh. I already love Royal Mordants, the new tome honestly just makes that battalion more viable and everything in it can get a ton of buffs. I might throw a dozen horrors in there instead of filling with flayers and ghouls and try it out a few times.

[nuttyknatty]

Anyone with the Charnel Throne able to measure the footprint please? Looks small from the pics in the Battletome - 100mmx50mm?

Just like some reference for scratch building one.

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by The Nameless One

[JackStreicher]

22 minutes ago, The Nameless One said:

Anyone with the Charnel Throne able to measure the footprint please? Looks small from the pics in the Battletome - 100mmx50mm?

Just like some reference for scratch building one.

 

I also need it since I‘ll be using the throne they have in the teaser for CE

[Honk]

6 hours ago, WoollyMammoth said:

They can't be too good because they can come back to life easy.

One of the most ignored facts, while whining about high costs, squishyness and comparing them to other stuff...

I never really had luck with a horde of ghouls, they just don’t put out damage and it is super frustrating to do all the pile in, measurements and throw all the dice for the multiunit charge and then see statistics do it gruesome work... half and half again and saves half another time... 40 ghouls with varghulf and courtier still brawled three turns with 2/3 of a gore pilgrim list, before finally dissolving. Ghoul patrol with summoned varghulf... VP victory thx 😅

but all the different ideas need to be tested, tweaked and fielded against different types of armies, blightkings just evaporate ghouls etc.

still excited to try out all the different filth... sneaky horse stampede for sure

[soots]

Guys, in a 2000pt game, which named character do you recommend we take?

[Fluttershy]

ugly as hell

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

3 hours ago, soots said:

Guys, in a 2000pt game, which named character do you recommend we take?

Named character ?

[Honk]

9 minutes ago, Kairos Tejedestinos said:

Named character ?

Well Lord Mighty Crunch of course!!!

All the other have the fluff, but are not crunching mightily enough 

Since I don’t have the book yet, I’ll guess it still depends what you want to field and what strategies you prepare for your opponents. Arch-Regent or GkoTg probably the classic choices

[Kairos Tejedestinos]

Indeed, he needs a name, today mine killed 1500 points of skaven lol. Nom nom nom.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Kairos Tejedestinos

[TheWilddog]

Maybe I am still stuck in the pre-new book mindset but I have trouble going with the battleline TG and ZD. Before the new book the only real strength of the army was our summoning. The only lists that did well leveraged our big guys, yes because they were somewhat good on their own but mainly because they summoned in a bunch of extra points. I can't help but think that is still the case.  When I look at running 3 bare TG (because it is just probable better that the ZD) all I can think about is if I add another 100 points it will add another cheap caster AND let me summon in another 160 points.  It just seems that the way for us to be competitive is with summoning, and the TG/ZD battleline 900 point sink seems to distract from that.  Of course this is all just conjecture based on, as I said pre-new book experience. Need to grind some games to get a real feel, but I think breaking summoning will be our best bet, like it was before.   

[XReN]

7 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:

Maybe I am still stuck in the pre-new book mindset but I have trouble going with the battleline TG and ZD. Before the new book the only real strength of the army was our summoning. The only lists that did well leveraged our big guys, yes because they were somewhat good on their own but mainly because they summoned in a bunch of extra points. I can't help but think that is still the case.  When I look at running 3 bare TG (because it is just probable better that the ZD) all I can think about is if I add another 100 points it will add another cheap caster AND let me summon in another 160 points.  It just seems that the way for us to be competitive is with summoning, and the TG/ZD battleline 900 point sink seems to distract from that.  Of course this is all just conjecture based on, as I said pre-new book experience. Need to grind some games to get a real feel, but I think breaking summoning will be our best bet, like it was before.   

Totally agree, though I'm currently bashing my head to build a list for 1850 (don't ask) tournament and getting my ZD as 3rd battleline + ghoul king on feet instead GKoZD will give me 100 points to work with and that make me happy

[TopHatCat]

So! I've just gotten started with AoS and was building my way towards "Monster Mash" build I'd been seeing since it absolutely seemed like my kind of playstyle. Giant Monsters? Aw heck yes! (Really not a fan of swarm armies).
https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/how-to-eat-flesh-have-your-cake-too-monster-mash-flesheaters/
Sadly the change to Magestic Horror has really crippled the list, so trying to band-aid that, but hoping I can replace Arkhan with the new Archregent (Since he can get a free Summon and also cast/dispell 2). However with being a noob who hasn't actually played a full game yet, I'd love some feedback!

Allegiance: Flesh-Eater Courts

Delusion: Crusading Army/The Feast Day

Leaders

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- General

- Trait: Magestic Horror

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- Mount Trait: Gruesome Bite

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- Artefact: The Grim Garland

Abhorrant Archregent (200)

Battleline

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

Endless Spells

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Chalice of Ushoran (40)

Scenery

Charnel Throne (0)

 

Total: 1800 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 2

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 79 (+48)

 

Goal: After movement turn 1, 2 GKoT use 2 CP to Summon 2 units of Crypt Horrors, then the GKoT with Magestic Horror Summons a 3rd unit for free, finally the Archregent stands within 1" of the Charnel Throne allowing him to Summon a 4th unit of Horrors for free, all as close to the enemy as possible, then (after  casting support spells like Malefic Hunger/Mystic Shields/Chalice etc), send all Terrors/Horrors in together for a big ol'Monster Mash.
 

======================

 

or;

 

Allegiance: Flesh-Eater Courts

Grand Court: Gristlegore
Leaders

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- General

- Trait: Savage Strike

- Mount Trait: Gruesome Bite

Abhorrant Ghoul King on Terrorgheist (400)

- Artefact: Ghurish Mawshard

Arkhan the Black, Mortarch of Sacrament (320)

Abhorrant Archregent (200)

Battleline

20 x Crypt Ghouls (200)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

10 x Crypt Ghouls (100)

Endless Spells

Chronomantic Cogs (60)

Soulsnare Shackles/Quicksilver Swords (20)

Scenery

Charnel Throne (0)

 

Total: 1800 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 2

Allies: 320 / 400

Wounds: 86 (+36)

 

Goal: After movement, turn 1, 2 GKoT use 2 CP to Summon 2 units of Crypt Horrors, the Archregent stands within 1" of the Charnel Throne allowing him to Summon a 3rd unit of Horrors for free. Our Monstrous General, supported by Arkhan/GKoT/(Archregent later on), Charges in, attacking first, getting pumped by Gristlegore ability, Feeding Frenzy, possibly Ferocious Hunger, Grusome Bite and Malefic Hunger/Mystic Shield etc, doing the most damage it can, softening them up for the rest of our Heroes/Horrors etc).

I'd prefer to keep my 3 GK on Terrorgheists since... Woo! Giant Monsters! (Who also Summon in free elite units instead of messing around with that whole, giant horde army shtick). But it's been tough building with Grand Courts since they lock you in on Traits/Artefacts (booo). Currently 2 SC boxes in and just picked up Carrion Empires, so need to know what I need to polish things off!

(Also need to figure out my 1k and 1.5k lists at some point 🤣 haha)

[PUFNSTUF]

Is a GK on ZD or T not able to be in the royal menagery battallion?

[Hamartia]

11 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

Is a GK on ZD or T not able to be in the royal menagery battallion?

Nope.

They've tried to make this clearer in the new book by referring to seperate TG's and ZD's as "Royal Terroghiests" etc which is what the battalion includes.

Edited February 16, 2019 by Hamartia

[PUFNSTUF]

1 minute ago, Hamartia said:

Nope.

They've tried to make this clearer in the new book by referring to seperate TG's and ZD's as "Royal Terroghiests" etc which is what the battalion includes.

Thanks for the quick reply. That's too bad as that makes a gristlegore list with that battallion have not many options once you've filled out the mandatory stuff.

[JackStreicher]

I'm done for now 😃

40x Ghoul Pauldrons

This should be enough so anyone can customize their FeC 😃

Edited February 16, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Pangu]

6 hours ago, TheWilddog said:

Maybe I am still stuck in the pre-new book mindset but I have trouble going with the battleline TG and ZD. Before the new book the only real strength of the army was our summoning. The only lists that did well leveraged our big guys, yes because they were somewhat good on their own but mainly because they summoned in a bunch of extra points. I can't help but think that is still the case.  When I look at running 3 bare TG (because it is just probable better that the ZD) all I can think about is if I add another 100 points it will add another cheap caster AND let me summon in another 160 points.  It just seems that the way for us to be competitive is with summoning, and the TG/ZD battleline 900 point sink seems to distract from that.  Of course this is all just conjecture based on, as I said pre-new book experience. Need to grind some games to get a real feel, but I think breaking summoning will be our best bet, like it was before.   

I think it will be viable  to go all monsters just because the gristlegore traits are just that good. However, I think the most optimal list runs gristlegore with a couple ridden monsters, Minimum ghoul battleline, and spend the remaining points on arch Regents and a battalion.

[Mutter]

2 minutes ago, Pangu said:

I think it will be viable  to go all monsters just because the gristlegore traits are just that good.

I don't think so, 'cause hordes are just too powerful in 2.0. I can't see unridden TGs and ZDs making enough of a dent before being overcome. And every unridden monster cuts down on your ridden mounts, which I think are much more viable.

But it'll be intersting to see them on the table every so often.

[Pangu]

11 minutes ago, Mutter said:

I don't think so, 'cause hordes are just too powerful in 2.0. I can't see unridden TGs and ZDs making enough of a dent before being overcome. And every unridden monster cuts down on your ridden mounts, which I think are much more viable.

But it'll be intersting to see them on the table every so often.

I agree with most of this, however the number of actual players willing to take advantage of hordes are pretty rare. Most of the meta is still made up of moderate model count lists. It's expensive and time consuming to build and paint 120+ model lists. In a 5 game tournament you simply aren't going to run into that many horde armies so i dont think its that big a deal.

[Gecktron]

So, short re-cap of a 1250 points game I just had. 

My list looked like this:

Quote

 

Grand Court: Blisterskin

-Archregent (warlord, Blisterskin artefact)

-AGK on Terrorgheist (regeneration mount trait)

-Grimghast Courtier

-6x Cryptflayers

-10x Ghouls 

-Corpsemare Stampede

-Chalice of Ushoran 

-> 1200 points 

 

My opponent played FEC as well. He didn't took a grand court, instead he took the Crusader Delusion and buffed his casting via warlord trait/artefacts. He took the first turn, summoned a chronomantic cog, summoned 2x20 ghouls via his 2 Archregents, 3x Flayers via his AGK on Terrorgheist. He used ferocious hunger on the terrorgheist and the one spell that allows flying units to run and charge. He managed to charge across the whole table and smash my Crypt Flayers and Ghouls in one fighting phase thanks to feeding frenzy. 

He completely crippled my army turn 1 thanks to his high movement and charge boni. His magical power was very oppressive. He got all his spells, all while preventing me from getting my buffs off, two Archregents are especially powerful in that situation. 

I managed to damage his force thanks to feeding frenzy but his ghoul mobs prevented me from playing the objective. 

[XReN]

44 minutes ago, Pangu said:

I agree with most of this, however the number of actual players willing to take advantage of hordes are pretty rare. Most of the meta is still made up of moderate model count lists. It's expensive and time consuming to build and paint 120+ model lists. In a 5 game tournament you simply aren't going to run into that many horde armies so i dont think its that big a deal.

I believe that might change though, where I play most people already build huge enough armies to drown tables is all kinds of horde units, be it plague monks, goblins, dryads, ghosts, skeletones, mix of chaos warriors, marouders and demons, even savage orks with over 100 models are common at the tournaments. 

[PUFNSTUF]

1 hour ago, Pangu said:

I think it will be viable  to go all monsters just because the gristlegore traits are just that good. However, I think the most optimal list runs gristlegore with a couple ridden monsters, Minimum ghoul battleline, and spend the remaining points on arch Regents and a battalion.

What battalion though? None would really fit, except ghoul patrol, and I don't know if royal family counts with all 3 being ridden.

[Pangu]

9 minutes ago, PUFNSTUF said:

What battalion though? None would really fit, except ghoul patrol, and I don't know if royal family counts with all 3 being ridden.

Ghoul patrol while not ideal has the lowest cost of entry of any of our battalions. I think its justifiable do to the Cp, artifact, extra mount trait.

[Satyrical Sophist]

19 hours ago, Pangu said:

There is no doubt that all of our potential battleline options are pretty bad, especially the knights.

Compare Horrors to any other medium sized infantry, like Bullgors. Bullgors are considered a mediocre unit and they are better in almost every way, they are cheaper, do more damage, do mortal wounds, have a better save and a better heal.

Lot of that isn't quite right. I play BoC.

They have the same (not better) save.

They have a much more situational heal. Sure it's nice when you get it off, but they need to wipe out a unit while injured. 

Damage wise they can be quite effective, but Vs a 4+ save they are doing an expected 2.25 wounds each to a 4+. (2.66 to a 5+). That's factoring in the mortals. 

The horrors are a pain to work out, but they get about 1.67 to 4+ and 2.2 to a 5+. ( I may be straight up wrong on working that out, the 3 damage on a 6 to wound is odd).

Are horrors more than 160 now? I haven't got my book yet