AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[Sception]

Spoiled for negativity.  Was going to have a more positive post spoiler takeaway, but apparently i cant close spoiler boxes, so why bother.

Lack of courtier models is bad, and a hassle that can be worked around but should have to be, and more than anything else is emblematic of the fact that the studio knows the FEC range is inadequate and just doesnt care enough to fix it.  There are a lot of 1e AoS factions in a similar boat, and after several much more impressive faction releases in a row between blood elves and wet elves and ghosties and gobbos i had hoped and more to the point expected that the model ranges of early factions, not just their battletomes, would be updated to 2e standards.

And as good as what we've seen of the battletome is - again that command ability is especially nice and a much better implementation of the ravenous hunger concept than the old rule imo - disappointment at how minimal the additions to the model range are, and in particular the courtiers remaining as tacit admissions from the studio that they know the problem exists and simply aren't going to do anything about it leaves frustration and disappointment as my strongest emotions about the release at this time.  Hopefully I can shake that before the book is out.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Sception

[Sception]

on a more optimistic, if a bit less on topic note, the skaven endless spells & terrain were previewed today, and mechanically they look really good to me.  Obviously points costs will be a deciding factor on the spells, but it seems like the designers maybe have a good idea at this point of what makes for an actually good endless spell.  In particular, the opponent can push the skaven predatory spells out of position, but they can't use them against the skaven player, so buying & casting  them will never end up giving your opponents weapons to use against you, as with previous predatory spells.

Fingers crossed that tomorrow's preview shows the same for the FEC spells.  I'm certainly more optimistic about them today than I was yesterday based on prior endless spells.

Edited February 7, 2019 by Sception

[Charlo]

We'll see the spells tomorrow and hopefully that will sort some of the doom and gloom. The lore for FEC is some of the best in Sigmar and the fact they have a decent tome on the horizon makes me wonder if I may as well play them instead of Soulblight to get my Vampire fix.

Still a total shame FEC allies list is so stilted - I'm hoping Soulblight at least will be added to allow Vampire lords or something.

Otherwise though, Deathmages and Deadwalkers does give access to a Corpse cCrt and Mortis Engine to give spellcasting buffs...! Aswell as the ever useful direwolves.

[Sception]

Vampire lords aren't exactly the most thematic fit as allies anyway.  The abhorrent delusions are apparently catching - I'd imagine regular vampires would go out of their way to avoid FEC, and those who didn't would soon end up as ghoul kings themselves.  Admittedly from a purely mechanical perspective it would be nice to stack the vamp lords CA with the FEC's ravenous hunger CA, but not letting you do that is probably a deliberate choice, much as I expect we won't be seeing the summonable keyword added either, to avoid stacking native attack buffs with the necromancer's signature spell.

So from both a thematic and a mechanical perspective, I can certainly understand why the FEC's ally options are so limited, and in and of itself it doesn't bother me too terribly much... except that the lack of ally options, and lack of synergy with some of the options they do have, doesn't exactly help the bigger problem that is their limited selection of models & units in faction.

Still, corpse carts in particular seem like a decent fit - rolling banquet wagons that provide some appreciated spellcasting buffs, don't cost to terribly much for what they do - whether in points or in dollars, and fit in well enough with the faction's overall aesthetic sensibilities.

[mrbedlam]

13 hours ago, Sception said:

Vampire lords aren't exactly the most thematic fit as allies anyway.  The abhorrent delusions are apparently catching - I'd imagine regular vampires would go out of their way to avoid FEC, and those who didn't would soon end up as ghoul kings themselves.  Admittedly from a purely mechanical perspective it would be nice to stack the vamp lords CA with the FEC's ravenous hunger CA, but not letting you do that is probably a deliberate choice, much as I expect we won't be seeing the summonable keyword added either, to avoid stacking native attack buffs with the necromancer's signature spell.

So from both a thematic and a mechanical perspective, I can certainly understand why the FEC's ally options are so limited, and in and of itself it doesn't bother me too terribly much... except that the lack of ally options, and lack of synergy with some of the options they do have, doesn't exactly help the bigger problem that is their limited selection of models & units in faction.

Still, corpse carts in particular seem like a decent fit - rolling banquet wagons that provide some appreciated spellcasting buffs, don't cost to terribly much for what they do - whether in points or in dollars, and fit in well enough with the faction's overall aesthetic sensibilities.

I would definitely be ok if Corpse Carts, Bats and Wolves found their way into our army. Its a shame we don't have any calvary but that wouldn't make sense, they'd just eat the horse right? Then again that would be true of any allies we gained lol

[Garxia]

The preview is up on WH Community:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/08/8th-feb-flesh-eater-courts-preview-endless-spells-and-the-charnel-thronegw-homepage-post-4/

Throne is great, free and with free summoning to boot, but at the cost of getting your king static.

Spells seems a bit bland, but they seem to tie Ushoran to old Bretonnia (wall talking about forgotten civilisation, Ushoran getting the Lady's Grail on End Times?).

 

Edited February 8, 2019 by Garxia

[ierthling]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/02/08/8th-feb-flesh-eater-courts-preview-endless-spells-and-the-charnel-thronegw-homepage-post-4/?fbclid=IwAR0kiMXA40wwous7nE1QDqGv6m2Fg3DVWWXY3vOwVLnONSU9Np8zThcr7lU

Y'all this stuff looks sick. Not totally sure how good the endless spells will be, although I see some potential, but the throne sounds amazing and it's free!!

[Requizen]

The models are great, but the spells are a bit uninspiring especially compared to some of the Grot/Skaven spells. The Chalice is potentially amazing for mounted Ghoul Kings, but depends on points.

 

That throne, though. Who needs to start 50-100 points under for Command Points when you can just take this free piece of terrain instead? Free Summoning is now TRULY FREE.

[Gecktron]

Looks good. The chalice and the fence are more utility than offensive power. 

I also like how the throne works. Bravery buffs/debuffs make sense considering its a throne made of bones. The free summoning is nice to have but shouldnt be too strong as the Abhorrent has to be close to the throne to use it. 

[Sception]

I'm less impressed with these spells than I was with the skaven spells yesterday.  The chalice, unlike the skaven bell, isn't predatory, so you can't move it in subsequent rounds to keep it in position, though admittedly conversely it can't be moved out of position by the opponent.  It's ability seems like it would best support big ghoul hordes, but then the 'wholly within 12 inches' language becomes problematic.

The horses have a fantastic move speed for a predatory spell, but unlike the skaven rat swarm spell they aren't faction friendly, so your opponent can send them right back at you.  They'll have to be pretty darned cheap to justify that risk, particularly with being exclusively a damage source and not having any other debuffing or utility applications.

The barricade's description - a wall of writhing corpses grabbing at enemy units - is fantastic and fluffy, but the model doesn't live up to that at all, just a plain old fence with a few seemingly inert bodies strewn around it.  Still, mechanically it's probably my favorite of the bunch for the long range, the move penalty it imposes, and the fact that as a non-damaging spell it's pretty easy to cast and probably won't cost many points.  At first blush it's the only one I'm particularly inclined to run, but points costs will be an important factor, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if players more skilled & experienced in the game & this faction find selling points I'm not seeing yet in the other spells.

All in all, I liked the skaven spells better, and probably would have been more enthused about these had I seen them before those spells rather than after.  I don't think they're terrible, though.

 

As for the terrain, well, I mean, free is free, right?  Again, I would have been more enthused about this had I seen it before the, imo, significantly superior skaven terrain from yesterday.  The bravery modifiers don't strike me as that significant.  Summoning without CP on the archregent is nice.  Basically amounts to a free CP per game, which is appreciated given how valuable those are for FEC in the new book.

 

Mostly seeing these don't push my feelings very much one way or the other.  Still kind of shrugging at both the spells and the chair and desperately wishing they had done something to help the FEC's actual model range instead, and still mostly looking to the battletome for hope of turning my somewhat unimpressed reaction to this release around.

[XReN]

Well guys, I've been quite optimistic, now it's time to be jealous.

Skaven got way better toys than we did and unless double (or more) regent becomes a thing the throne is not particulary great (though I appretiate essentially free CP to rip off enemy faces with Feeding Frenzy)

Spells are situational, Chalice is great on paper but I always feel that we lack spellcasting "slots" to fit this thing in, Horsies are my personal fave model-wise and will totaly wreck some stormcast/idonet/sylvaneth players but against more hordish armies and builds it's pretty meh and can come back and bite us quite easily. Fence is just nope, as we don't see much shooting going on where I play and the one we see is ballista drop, I'd pass on using this fence ever.

Nothing to get crazy (lol) about before we see the tome

[Honk]

15 minutes ago, ierthling said:

Not totally sure how good the endless spells will be, although I see some potential

The chalice can be made to work pretty easily... put it where the fight is on and you‘ll get some nicevextra regen.

[Sception]

1 minute ago, XReN said:

Fence is just nope, as we don't see much shooting going on where I play and the one we see is ballista drop, I'd pass on using this fence ever.

The barricade part of the spell/model is a pointless distraction.  The selling point of this model is that it's a long range AOE movement debuff and roadblock (non-flying enemy units have to walk around it as it's an enemy model, they can't just climb over it like a normal barricade) that should, at the very least, force your opponent to burn a casting attempt to try to dispel it.  If it's as cheap as, say, the shackles or pallisades, the nearest generic equivalents, then I could see it being a viable option.  Maybe even something I'd consider in a Nagash list.  Not as good as the skave warpstone triangle spell, but still something that might see play.  Compared to the shackles it can't do damage, can't trap enemy models, and is less flexible in positioning, but it has 6" longer range and the movement debuff is automatic instead of having to roll for it and it's a lot harder for enemy units to walk around.

@Requizen  Good point on the chalice being decent support for a monster or monster-mounted hero.  That does slightly improve my feelings about it.

[clamo]

the throne sounds pretty rad. free cp is great especially with all the new stuff we need cp for in the new battletome. 

[Sception]

13 minutes ago, clamo said:

the throne sounds pretty rad. free cp is great especially with all the new stuff we need cp for in the new battletome. 

I'd be a lot more enthused about it if it worked for the summoning abilities of mounted ghoul kings as well.  With the Regent being added, I just don't see a lot of place for infantry ghoul kings, which means you're only getting a single CP out of it unless the archregent's point cost comes in low enough to make doubling up on them a viable option.

Though I suppose battalions might provide a reason to still run the infantry king.  Fingers crossed, I guess.

Edited February 8, 2019 by Sception

[swarmofseals]

I have to admit I'm pretty confused by the reactions to these warscrolls. The throne is basically a handful of free CP, which is absolutely huge for this army. It remains to be seen if all-in summoning remains a popular build, but if it does this thing is like having a couple hundred free points. Given how powerful the feeding frenzy command ability is, I suspect FEC is going to be a very CP "hungry" (heh) army and the throne is just pure gravy.

The endless spells are all good examples of design that is actually functional. The wall is probably the most lackluster, but I suspect it will be cheap and still quite useful for forcing a dispel. The grail is an awesome design. You set it up where you are about to hit the enemy and it helps you recover from the damage you take during that round of combat. Then your enemy is forced to make a choice between dispelling it, or trying to fight away from it. I suspect if it functions even just on your turn it'll make up its points cost pretty frequently, and if it stays on the table for longer it'll be even better.

The stampede is a predatory endless spell that might have enough impact to actually see play. Even against 3 wound models it has respectable damage output and it moves really far. If you hit two or three enemy units with this (which is pretty realistic given that it has an average threat radius of 24.5") you are doing really well. It could be overcosted, of course, but I think the design makes it at least plausibly useful which is more than one can say for most endless spells.

[XReN]

I'll do one more pessimistic post and that'll make me vent enough

 

You have to build your list around specific models, maybe specificaly around Royal Family to really leverage the thrones ability, otherwise it will give you something along 1-2 summons which is not particulary strong, since, you know, I'd rather take cp's than ghoul king and therefore afford one summon from mounted king and than flipping DOUBLE the effectiveness of my block of ghouls, or horrors, or GKoTG and that will be better than 140 pts 1 spell wiz with 10 free ghouls, since it can decide the game earlier. 

 

To put down endless spells you also need to build your list considering those because we starve (keep dem puns rolling) casters, we have amazing spells on our kings, you know? Why block enemy's movement if you can make him charge 5++ ghouls with like ton of attacks. Unless chalice will be cheap as dirt you'll also have to create space for it to be used in battle, and for Stampede, I already mentioned it, don't see a reason to do this twice.

 

Rant over, need to survive slightly more than a week to get me claws on a new tome

[Charlo]

The spells are deceptively powerful I think. The horses are fast as balls and a turn one cast will cause some real carnage to an enemy battleline. The chalice makes heroes so survivable as long as they kill stuff (tldr; they will) and the wall is potentially game winning, being able to halt an enemy unit just when you need to (objectives, a charge) or even just give your own guys cover for a turn.

I'm not seeing the downside of the throne? You could use two free summons a turn, every turn, right? That's a lot of summoning! 

[XReN]

2 minutes ago, Charlo said:

You could use two free summons a turn, every turn, right? That's a lot of summoning! 

No, at this point of time each hero is restricted to 1 summon per battle

 

[Overread]

I think the difference is that the Skaven spells are more mobility and offensive based whilst the Flesh Eaters are far more defensive. Barriers to secure objectives and protect from archers; a chalice which can be thrown down to buff any tarpit unit holding a position; a throne that gives you bonus summoning. These are all abilities that are going to be really powerful mid game when you're on an objective and want to hold it. Skaven ones might kick in earlier; but these abilities are going to lock things down and grind your opponents up with a tarpit approach. 

Plus you've got the horses to act as a fast hard hitting predatory spell; granted it comes with all the risks of any predatory spell, so correct deployment is going to be key to getting the most out of it; but its certainly no slouch. 

[JackStreicher]

I like all the magic and terrain rules (especially the Grail).

I was hoping for a lore explanation why the throne will appear in battle at all 😕

 

Ushoran and The Lady? Ushoran was dead for a thousand years when the end times happened? (He was the founder of the Strigos Empire and was slain by an Ork Warboss)

Edited February 8, 2019 by JackStreicher

[swarmofseals]

56 minutes ago, XReN said:

You have to build your list around specific models, maybe specificaly around Royal Family to really leverage the thrones ability, otherwise it will give you something along 1-2 summons which is not particulary strong, since, you know, I'd rather take cp's than ghoul king and therefore afford one summon from mounted king and than flipping DOUBLE the effectiveness of my block of ghouls, or horrors, or GKoTG and that will be better than 140 pts 1 spell wiz with 10 free ghouls, since it can decide the game earlier. 

In a Royal Family build the throne is absolutely crazy good and will be akin to having 200-300 extra points for free. That's clearly the high end of its effectiveness. The low end is probably like 50-100 points worth, like you said. That's still quite good -- far better than the Gloomtide Shipwreck, for example. It's not an army-defining piece of scenery like the Wyldwood, but even at just 1-2 command points it's still a decent bonus for free. If you told me any of the factions that I play were getting 1-2 free CP at the start of the game I'd be ecstatic. It's a really big deal.

30 minutes ago, Overread said:

I think the difference is that the Skaven spells are more mobility and offensive based whilst the Flesh Eaters are far more defensive. Barriers to secure objectives and protect from archers; a chalice which can be thrown down to buff any tarpit unit holding a position; a throne that gives you bonus summoning. These are all abilities that are going to be really powerful mid game when you're on an objective and want to hold it. Skaven ones might kick in earlier; but these abilities are going to lock things down and grind your opponents up with a tarpit approach. 

Plus you've got the horses to act as a fast hard hitting predatory spell; granted it comes with all the risks of any predatory spell, so correct deployment is going to be key to getting the most out of it; but its certainly no slouch. 

I'm not sure I'm following your reasoning. The bell seems to mostly useful for it's battleshock immunity. I don't think you can count on rolling exactly 13 on 3d6. The lightning and vortex spells are certainly offensive though. In constrast the FEC horses are clearly offensive while the corpse wall is defensive. I don't actually think it's fair to characterize the grail as defensive though. It's a healing spell, but it has quite a long range and triggers off kills. Sure it can be used to keep your tarpit going like you suggested, but it can also be used to allow you to extend your monsters deeper into enemy territory. It's a lot easier to move your dragons/terrorgheists away from support for a deep offensive move when you know they are going to be able to heal themselves effectively after the first round of combat and will likely be at or near full strength for the opponent's retaliation. It's a support spell that enables both offensive and defensive strategies.

[Sception]

I like the grail more the more I look at it.  The horses still seem to have too much risk of being thrown back in your face for me to get excited about them yet.  I still like the wall, at least mechanically.  Movement impairing abilities are fantastic, and the wall's effectiveness and long range in that regard seems quite viable to me.

The terrain isn't bad - I mean, it's free, it *can't* be bad.  I was just hoping for... I don't know.  More somehow.  An extra CP or two per game isn't bad at all, but isn't likely to significantly change the way your army plays, the way those warp tunnels might for skaven, or the way gravesites (which, while lacking discrete models, still fill more or less the same role) do for the Legions.  I'm not sure what I was hoping for - casting bonuses?  Increases to the range of spells or command abilities measured from an abhorrant sitting on the chair?  fighty buffs or recursion for mordant units in a radius?  I'm not sure. 

Again, the chair is good, especially for free.  It just seems like something your reagent will deploy next to for a free turn 1 summon, and then your whole army will move away from it to chase objectives / enemy units and for the rest of the game you'll forget it's even there.

 

All in all, the previewed content is growing on me, but still doesn't have a lot of *WOW* factor.  I'm not underwhelmed by this stuff, but I'm not overwhelmed either.  Just regular whelmed, which leaves my previously expressed griping about the apparent lack of expansion to the FEC's actual model/unit range (still time to make me eat my shoe on this GW!) as my primary emotional response here.  I honestly kind of wish that, say, Seraphon had seen the update first.  Like skaven, they've still got a robust enough oldhammer range to not be crying out for new models & units - an updated book, some spells, a terrain piece, & maybe a new hero choice really would do them pretty well for an update, and skaven vs. lizardmen is a classic enough feud to get people excited for a box set of mostly existing models.  Then FEC's update could have been saved for when they were ready to actually expand the range, even if that took another year or two.

But whatever.  It is what it is.  None of this stuff looks bad exactly, and the book still has time to turn my frown upside down.

[XReN]

Something uplifting I noticed about Horsies - they deal D3 MWs regardless of wound characteristic of target on a roll of 6, something that I missed first couple of times I read them

 

[Sception]

7 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

In a Royal Family build the throne is absolutely crazy good

This is kind of counting unhatched chickens, since we don't even know that the royal family is staying around yet, let alone in its current form.