AoS 2 - Flesh-eater Courts Discussion

[mrbedlam]

My brain is already doing crazy theory crafting assuming points stay the same but adding info we know now. You can go:

Gristlegore Court

Infernal Courtier (general)

GK on Ghiest (Spectral spell)

GK on ZD

6 Flayers

Terrorghiest

Terrorghiest

1900/2000

That's 11 models to start. summon 4 more models in and have 4 behemoths that can possibly run/charge, pile in twice and get extra hits on 6s. Seems pretty silly.

 

[TheWilddog]

I was excited before the preview, but now I have to say I am officially pumped.   I have not been this jazzed about an army book in quite some time.  This guy has for tooooo long gone hungry, NOW IT'S TIME TO EAT.

[JackStreicher]

The rules so far look really promising (and trhe artwork as well...oh my why didn't we get new models X_x)... can someone send me some time? Then I could work on some FeC sculpts XD

[Gecktron]

Quote

Allegiance Abilities

The Flesh-eater Courts allegiance abilities are similar to those found in the last General’s Handbook, but have been given some considerable improvements. As an alternative to picking a delusion for your army, you’ll have the choice of selecting a Grand Court instead (more on those below).

Did I get this right? We either get one of the new Grand Courts or (if no Grand Court is taken) get to choose between new Delusions? I thought at first the Courts repleace the Delusions but getting both as an option is great!

[Sception]

1 hour ago, mrbedlam said:

My brain is already doing crazy theory crafting assuming points stay the same but adding info we know now. You can go:

Gristlegore Court

Infernal Courtier (general)

GK on Ghiest (Spectral spell)

GK on ZD

6 Flayers

Terrorghiest

Terrorghiest

1900/2000

That's 11 models to start. summon 4 more models in and have 4 behemoths that can possibly run/charge, pile in twice and get extra hits on 6s. Seems pretty silly.

 

This is pure speculation, but unless I missed something in the preview or elsewhere, I doubt the current rules for horror & flayer courtier generals making their respective units battleline will remain in the game.  Courts having their own particular battleline units is almost certainly a replacement for that model, rather than in addition to it.  Basically, I still think battleline flayers will be an option, but I expect they'll be a court-based option mutually exclusive with battleline monsters rather than a hero based option that can be used in concert with them.

Otherwise, this preview looks about like what I expected, including pretty much confirming that we aren't seeing any more new models.  Certainly not new models for courtiers, since both the resin varghulf and the 'paint the unit champ a different color and throw the rest of the box away' horror courtier are shown in pictures in the article.

So it still looks like they're still stretching an overly thin model range, one that in its original context was never meant to stand on its own, pretty far in order to justify calling it an independent faction.  Of course, that doesn't mean the result can't stand up.  There just isn't a lot of slack is all.  For big, robust factions, the designers can drop the ball on 2/3 of the units and still bumble into a viable battletome with at least some variety of build options, but with these mini factions pretty much every unit needs to be on point or they end up as highly predictable cookie-cutter lists at best.

 

I'm more hopeful for FEC 2.0 than I'm probably sounding here.  There's certainly some potential, and lore/personality wise FEC is one of the coolest factions in AoS, even without meaningful named heroes to drive their presence in the overall game narrative.  2.0 summoning rules were favorable to them, and if they aren't nerfed too hard in this book there will probably be at least *something* viable there.  And that "I don't need no stinkin' necromancers" command ability is certainly a doosie, if sadly probably confirmation that we won't be seeing the summonable keyword added to any FEC units, so there's little to no synergy from allies to help prop up the lacking native range of models & units.  What I do see I mostly like, even if it's maybe not enough to completely overcome my dislike for what I don't see.  I'm certainly crossing my fingers for this book, if not holding my breath.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Sception

[Sception]

58 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Did I get this right? We either get one of the new Grand Courts or (if no Grand Court is taken) get to choose between new Delusions? I thought at first the Courts repleace the Delusions but getting both as an option is great!

that's what it's sounding like, yeah.  Generic FEC get to choose from a list of delusions to characterize your own custom court, while the named subfaction courts get specific special rules reflecting their pre-defined, canonical delusions.  Which sounds like a fair enough way to do it.  If that is how it works, I think that's a pretty neat system.

I'm going to go out on a limb and predict that one of these canon courts will specifically be nagash worshippers and at least part of their court bonus will be a +1 to casting rolls for FEC casters in the army.  If there is such a court, that'll probably be the best chance of tempting me to pull my ghouls back out of storage, despite my previous promise to myself to never do so until either courtiers get their own models or points costs go to per model instead of per box.

But yeah, a ghoul court whose delusion has them seeing themselves as a highly structured and organized church spreading worship of their benevolent deity, where the abhorrents see themselves as bishops and cardinals rather than kings and emperors, and their legions are zealous crusaders rather than noble knights?  I could really get behind that sort of aesthetic.  Plus, with the power on show in some of these spells, and me not being eager to paint a half dozen more terrorgheists & zombie dragons any time soon, a simple boost to spellcasting, in addition to being fluffy for such a hypothetical court, would also be a lot more tempting to me than any number of battleline behemoths.

Edited February 6, 2019 by Sception

[Rob Hawkins]

On 2/3/2019 at 11:06 PM, bsharitt said:

If that happened, I'd definitely build out a Flesheater courts army. I've got some leftover ghouls from their start collecting box that I bought for the Vampire Lord on Zombie dragon and the vargheists, but if I could use my zombies and bats, even though I don't care for the models, the extra variety might be enough.

I was thinking about a way they could do it too-- Rather than having a blanket ally with "Soulblight" (which I know they don't want) they could ally with keyword "Fell Bats" and "Bat Swarms."  The unit's name is always a keyword, so you can add it to the list of allies to selectively allow specific units to ally in.

So, the FEC allies list could read:  Deadwalkers, Deathlords, Deathmages, Fell Bats, Bat Swarms.  Done and done.

[Sception]

38 minutes ago, Rob Hawkins said:

So, the FEC allies list could read:  Deadwalkers, Deathlords, Deathmages, Fell Bats, Bat Swarms.  Done and done.

That would be nice, and certainly a creative use of the keyword mechanics, something that haven't been at all used to their fullest.  I don't expect it, but it would be nice.  Slightly more likely - if still not something I'm pinning any hopes on - would be battalions including units not otherwise allowed as allies, something we have already seen here and there, iirc.  A GKoTG with some bat swarms flocking in its wake would be pretty cool, for instance.  Give the formation a deep strike rule similar to the one 'mount command trait' previewed and they'd be an interesting option to mitigate enemy shooting, or at least keep enemy ranged units honest in regards to needing screens.

A neat idea, even if the old and awkward bat models mean its probably not something we have any chance of seeing.

[Orchid89]

Wow, well this is exciting!

Any point in getting Carrion empire vs more Start Collecting boxes (more dragons)?

If I am to start a FEC army now would it be better to go x2 FEC SC or 1 FEC SC and Carrion Empire?

[Gecktron]

9 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

Wow, well this is exciting!

Any point in getting Carrion empire vs more Start Collecting boxes (more dragons)?

If I am to start a FEC army now would it be better to go x2 FEC SC or 1 FEC SC and Carrion Empire?

Atleast one Carrion Empire box is neccesary for the Arch-Regent. CE also gives you double the amount of Horrors and Ghouls. Getting both should be the best option. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by Gecktron

[Sception]

3 minutes ago, Gecktron said:

Atleast one Carrion Empire box is neccesary for the Arch-Regent. CE also gives you double the amount of Horrors and Ghouls. Getting both should be the best option. 

I mean, the Arch-Regent doesn't look too terribly hard to convert from a normal ghoul king.  The most distinguishing features are some wingy flappy dealies on the forarms that should be reasonably reproducible from spare vargheist bits out of the horror/flayer box (specifically the tiny extra pair of wings from the vargheist champ), plus a random extra shoulder pauldron that could come from about anywhere.  Maybe a bit of reposing & a fancier base.  If you wanted to take it a bit further, maybe a tattered greenstuff robe or cape?  Maybe a fancy crown, perhaps steal the one from the top of the wight king's head?

A fair bit of hassle to be sure sure, but if the archregent is literally the only thing out of the carrion empires box you want (and with the lack of other new FEC models it very will might be), then conversion is probably a better option provided you've got some hobby experience under your belt.  I'm leaning towards fancying up my existing half-done ghoul king conversion a bit rather than grabbing a whole box set for just one model, though the official model is admittedly very nice in this case.

Another alternative option might be any old necrarch vampire lord models or conversions you might have lying around, provided my previous prediction of a nagash-worshipping, magic-oriented FEC court pans out.

[Undeadly]

Can anybody explain why people seem so upset about Courtiers being built out of the Crypt Horrors box? Looking at the Warscrolls, it almost seems like you'd want two Crypt Haunters, considering their Regen ability. The extra one could be built as a Crypt Flayer Courtier, since thats a pretty decent assassin, and syncs well with the Ghoul King's summoning ability.

[CaptainNippon]

28 minutes ago, Undeadly said:

Can anybody explain why people seem so upset about Courtiers being built out of the Crypt Horrors box? Looking at the Warscrolls, it almost seems like you'd want two Crypt Haunters, considering their Regen ability. The extra one could be built as a Crypt Flayer Courtier, since thats a pretty decent assassin, and syncs well with the Ghoul King's summoning ability.

Just rearranging a few bits and calling it a new unit seems lazy. People certainly would have preferred a new sculpt, but I guess it was an ok move for the early stages of AoS. Now, the Varghulf Courtier does need a new sculpt (pretty please?)

[soots]

14 hours ago, XReN said:

I recently dealt around 15 MW with 6 flayers screaming in one turn!

 

I really really hope they change Flayer to more standard hit/wound.

Its very strong against some armies and absolutely useless against some others.

For example, my friend plays order skinks. My 53pt flayer needs to roll a 10 on a single D6 to kill 1x 6pt skink. I would have trouble on 2D6, let alone having any chance on a D6.

The two things i hope they do are change flayer screams, and give horrors rend. 

Edited February 6, 2019 by soots

[Alexonian]

obviously to early to really tell, but from what we've seen so far seems like a strong improvement, really happy for all FEC players.

was interested in starting them myself but my friend decided to pick them up so I wont

[Rob Hawkins]

5 hours ago, Undeadly said:

Can anybody explain why people seem so upset about Courtiers being built out of the Crypt Horrors box? Looking at the Warscrolls, it almost seems like you'd want two Crypt Haunters, considering their Regen ability. The extra one could be built as a Crypt Flayer Courtier, since thats a pretty decent assassin, and syncs well with the Ghoul King's summoning ability.

Like Captain Nippon said, it seems lazy.  But because of the unit size increments, you'll be left with 2 unusable Horrors or Flayers if you build a Courtier Hero out of the box.  You can try to build 3 Courtiers out of one box, using all the models, but the Courtiers use the "champion" bits and there wouldn't be enough in one box to appropriately kit out all three.

Probably not much of an issue if you have a large enough collection; If you've combined two boxes into a 6-man unit, you'll have a spare set of champion bits, or you could eventually add up the spare models into a full unit increment.

The Crypt Ghast Courtier is a little more egregious though, because it leaves you with NINE spare ghouls.  (I guess you could pay points for 10 and field them one short, but still.)

[XReN]

6 hours ago, soots said:

I really really hope they change Flayer to more standard hit/wound.

Its very strong against some armies and absolutely useless against some others.

For example, my friend plays order skinks. My 53pt flayer needs to roll a 10 on a single D6 to kill 1x 6pt skink. I would have trouble on 2D6, let alone having any chance on a D6.

The two things i hope they do are change flayer screams, and give horrors rend. 

I believe that giving Horrors rend would be nice but unlikely (and also bury flayers forever), but I hope we might get a spell to do that

[JackStreicher]

I made my courtiers from other kits / Bit shops.

the crypt horror courtier is a Rat ogre from the Island of Blood with a Little armour.

the flauer courtier is a kitbash of Morghast-Armor and The left over Hand of Nagash.

one can work around the restrictions of available boxes ^^

 

Edited February 7, 2019 by JackStreicher

[Honk]

59 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

one can work around the restrictions of available boxes 

If GDubs hands you lemons... 

and we delusional folk are used to think we have cool and great stuff for years now 😂👍

Harald der Herrliche has smiteted many foes in my local meta, through cunning, deception and tactical acumen...

you might think this unit got wiped, but actually they retreated to attack you flank somewhere else...

you fell for my trap, this is not the Magnificent himself, he wouldn’t die to puny Kurnoth Hunter Bowmen, he will ravage your lands/free your suppressed people, while you are busy fighting this rabble...

[TheHarrower]

On 2/3/2019 at 2:00 PM, JackStreicher said:

It is how that works. I am a professional 3D freelancer. They simply recycled the 3D sculpts. Which is cheap in many ways.

No and I don’t see how being a professional 3D freelancer makes that statement accurate. Members of the miniatures design team have said they typically sculpt from scratch. And the corpse cart is ancient. It wasn’t even created in 3D. 

[JackStreicher]

Here're my conversions

[Gaz Taylor]

38 minutes ago, TheHarrower said:

No and I don’t see how being a professional 3D freelancer makes that statement accurate. Members of the miniatures design team have said they typically sculpt from scratch. And the corpse cart is ancient. It wasn’t even created in 3D. 

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Just a reminder but I have already asked @JackStreicher not to go on about this, which they have done (Thanks Jack! ). So I would like to ask you not to as I do not want to see the conversation again

On a side note - If anybody is interested in how GW do the sculpts, try and chat with some of the designers/sculptors at one of the Open Days if you are able to go to them. They do plenty of them and can also be found at some Trade shows as well as they are always after new talent.

 

[Lightbox]

59 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Here're my conversions

  Reveal hidden contents

 Those have some great character to them! Very nice.

 

 

12 hours ago, soots said:

I really really hope they change Flayer to more standard hit/wound.

Its very strong against some armies and absolutely useless against some others.

For example, my friend plays order skinks. My 53pt flayer needs to roll a 10 on a single D6 to kill 1x 6pt skink. I would have trouble on 2D6, let alone having any chance on a D6.

The two things i hope they do are change flayer screams, and give horrors rend. 

I definitely agree on the flayers either that or change it to 2d6 vs bravery and dealing 1d3 mortal wounds regardless of how much you beat it by. That way they still get the bravery hitting mechanic but damage is more well rounded and not relying on fighting specific units like skaven or beastmen to have any effect.

[XReN]

3 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

I made my courtiers from other kits / Bit shops.

the crypt horror courtier is a Rat ogre from the Island of Blood with a Little armour.

the flauer courtier is a kitbash of Morghast-Armor and The left over Hand of Nagash.

one can work around the restrictions of available boxes ^^

 

I happened to buy 8 big guys off hands so I easily made Infernal and Haunter, and now I'm going to build Ghast of Blackstone Fortress ghoul and looking for some cawdor bodies for the same purpose

[TheHarrower]

2 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

+++ Mod Hat On +++

Just a reminder but I have already asked @JackStreicher not to go on about this, which they have done (Thanks Jack! ). So I would like to ask you not to as I do not want to see the conversation again

On a side note - If anybody is interested in how GW do the sculpts, try and chat with some of the designers/sculptors at one of the Open Days if you are able to go to them. They do plenty of them and can also be found at some Trade shows as well as they are always after new talent.

 

No problem. Totally missed that.

To expand on information for how minis are sculpted, the majority is done in ZBrush. Plenty of sculptors to look up online. I’d recommend Mike Pavlovich on YouTube. He’s a video game artist so output file is different, but the actual sculpting process is the same.